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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:53:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Sebea Edited by: Sebea on 16/12/2008 00:52:23
Originally by: Ephemeron must be trolling
I was gonna respond, but Ancy got to it first
sorry
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Shacksman
Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:53:00 -
[122]
one question i havent seen come up is HOW MANY T2 BPO'S did any of these individuals have in there possesion, if they where doing this for four years they must have had a huge percent of the t2 market aswell.
will any of these bpos get reseeded
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Swift Voyager
Black Lion Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:00:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Swift Voyager on 16/12/2008 01:07:33
Quote: one question i havent seen come up is HOW MANY T2 BPO'S did any of these individuals have in there possesion, if they where doing this for four years they must have had a huge percent of the t2 market aswell.
will any of these bpos get reseeded
They were supposed to be phasing the T2 BPO out of the game anyway. It would be better to let them stay gone if any T2 BPO's were removed from the game as a result of the banned accounts. You should be asking why they haven't removed all the T2 BPO's yet since they equate to an exploit now compared to invention.
The CSM really should bring this up, but they all likely own T2 BPO's so there's a conflict of interest there. :)
------------------------------------------ You can monkey-proof your software but you can't monkey-proof the monkeys. |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:07:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Shacksman one question i havent seen come up is HOW MANY T2 BPO'S did any of these individuals have in there possesion, if they where doing this for four years they must have had a huge percent of the t2 market aswell.
will any of these bpos get reseeded
You obviously missed the part when they said the 'sploit probably haven't been used before Feb -07.
Read?
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Baske
Space-Bar
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:08:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Sebea
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Sebea
Again, I see that you care, but WHY DO YOU CARE?
Irrelevant question, ignored.
How in the hell is it irrelevant?
Your demanding all these answers, well, a fair question in return is why do you care?
Or don't you have an answer to that?
It's a fair question, but irrelevant, as I am (afaik) not the target of anyones investigation, but yours.
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Swift Voyager
Black Lion Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:11:00 -
[126]
If they made several trillion ISK from the exploit, they could have bought plenty of T2 BPO from other players. Additionally, if those players had T2 BPO in their posession legally, obtained through the normal research lotter process, prior to the exploit, when the account got banned the T2 BPO would be effectively gone from the game forever.
Please be polite.
------------------------------------------ You can monkey-proof your software but you can't monkey-proof the monkeys. |
SentryRaven
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:33:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Swift Voyager Edited by: Swift Voyager on 16/12/2008 01:16:34
Quote: You obviously missed the part when they said the 'sploit probably haven't been used before Feb -07.
Read?
If they made several trillion ISK from the exploit, they could have bought plenty of T2 BPO from other players.
Additionally, if those players had T2 BPO in their posession legally, obtained through the normal research lottery process, prior to the exploit, then when the account got banned the T2 BPO would be effectively gone from the game forever. It wouldn't matter if they got it as a result of the exploit or not. The account was banned, not just the part of the account that came after the exploit. Those account are likely to be industrial characters, and probably had lots of manufacturing and related items.
Please be polite.
And thus, farewell T2 BPOs. And I don't think they should be re-seeded. It's similar to a destruction ingame, while in your cargo-hold. --------
EBANK Forum Manager |
J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:42:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Those benefiting directly but unknowingly, yes, they should be punished as well, but to a far lesser degree...
I disagree - I don't think they should be punished at all. They didn't have the choice you used for your other two examples. This is the first level where there is incomplete knowledge about the source of the benefits.
As to the idiot who (unfortunately) keeps replying to you, Innocent II, do you realise that there's an extremely high chance you may have benefited indirectly from this, by buying a cheap T2 module? That's why this is so problematic, because it affects the entire market in a large way. Becareful what you wish for.
On a separate though slightly related note, I am concerned about how much of this didn't touch the markets at all. Given so far there is at least 13 months during which an extremely lucrative exploit has been available, I sincerely doubt that there was not one case of a POS running out of fuel and shutting down before a reaction finished during that time (unless the POS had to be shut down manually - no-one has confirmed this yet). In fact, a trend I can see in this is 13 months of everyone avoiding the market like the plague because they knew of the watchful eye of our good doctor, and also significant influxes would be easier to spot by everyone. More likley is the exploit was well known and well used, but the gains kept off the market directly, instead going through other subsiduary products, or indeed not touching the market at all - I imagine you could fuel an entire campagin, given the extent of some POS networks that alliances have. But as the exploit became wider spread, someone just had to make that quick buck, risking everything and putting it on the market. No-one noticed, so others started to do it - thus the gradual increase - until the market was quickly flooded. But as the good doctor says, such a gradual rise doesn't get noticed - that's how market trends start and shift around.
This 13 month gap is what is causing me the problem. Someone, somewhere, should have noticed this exploit in that time alone. The fact that no-one did, and no petition had been raised during that time, makes me believe they all knew about it from long before. All this leads us to one question: had that greedy person not seeded the market and blown the cover for everyone, how long would it have gone on? Further, if there are any other such exploits currently, there is no way the people who use them will ever, ever go near the markets, which will make it extremely difficult to track later on.
Ocham's Razor is telling me that this is actually the most likely scenario, given social dynamics.
Man, my head hurts...
-- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.12.16 01:54:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
Quote: Vuk noted that every big patch changes a lot of unrelated things, so the bug could have been introduced at any time.
And to CCP: Don't come up with some half-assed excuse for this. Coming from another developer, there is quite simply no excuse. This isn't a case of "oops, I slipped." This is just flat-out stupid. IF you guys actually aren't using a version control system, then it's a miracle you haven't completely pooched your environment yet. That being said, it's pretty damn obvious you can not only point out exactly when this change took place, but who the exact dev was who committed the change. Either that, or CCP is the true example of the "Wild, Wild West" of programming.
As a developer to an obvious developer-wannabe; Having access to the exact points in time when some code got changed does not tell you which changes introduced (or even re-introduced) the bug if it relies on some subtle mechanics. So, as said, seemingly unrelated changes might very well have 'activated' the exploit.
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Raketefrau
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:15:00 -
[130]
The Isk trail should be followed through to any T2 BPOs, Titans or Moms built.
That is plain, simple, and logical.
Not doing so is complete and utter bull****.
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Astro Glyde
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:32:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Shacksman one question i havent seen come up is... BLA BLA BLA
You need to pay closer attention, then.
Originally by: Astro Glyde Edited by: Astro Glyde on 16/12/2008 02:31:03 One question that I haven't seen raised or addressed here;
Of the 70+ accounts that were banned, how much material was seized by virtue of the bans or other 'clean up' efforts? In terms of ISK or materials (ships, minerals, BPO's, etc.)?
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:34:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Swift Voyager If they made several trillion ISK from the exploit, they could have bought plenty of T2 BPO from other players.
Additionally, if those players had T2 BPO in their posession legally, obtained through the normal research lottery process, prior to the exploit, then when the account got banned the T2 BPO would be effectively gone from the game forever. It wouldn't matter if they got it as a result of the exploit or not. The account was banned, not just the part of the account that came after the exploit. Those account are likely to be industrial characters, and probably had lots of manufacturing and related items.
Please be polite.
Sorry, 3 am here :D
But my point stands. As does my opinion that if the T2 BPOs are gone, they should stay gone. CCP already changed the T2 mechanics and T2 BPOs are going to disappear one way or another, it's just a matter of time.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:40:00 -
[133]
Everything is now fine
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Kva Plexcha
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:41:00 -
[134]
Is it just me but is CCP Fallout not the most perfectly named GM for this thread?
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Kirgan
Caldari Pyrognome
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Posted - 2008.12.16 02:58:00 -
[135]
Seems CCP is going to need a bigger rug to sweep this one under.
Quote: An old man goes to the Wizard to ask him if he can remove a curse he has been living with for the last 40 years. The Wizard says, 'Maybe, but you will have to tell me the exact words that were used to put the curse on you'. The old man says without hesitation, 'I now pronounce you man and wife.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:01:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 16/12/2008 03:05:36
Originally by: Swift Voyager Edited by: Swift Voyager on 16/12/2008 01:07:33
Quote: one question i havent seen come up is HOW MANY T2 BPO'S did any of these individuals have in there possesion, if they where doing this for four years they must have had a huge percent of the t2 market aswell.
will any of these bpos get reseeded
They were supposed to be phasing the T2 BPO out of the game anyway. It would be better to let them stay gone if any T2 BPO's were removed from the game as a result of the banned accounts. You should be asking why they haven't removed all the T2 BPO's yet since they equate to an exploit now compared to invention.
The CSM really should bring this up, but they all likely own T2 BPO's so there's a conflict of interest there. :)
I wouldn't get my hopes up my QQing inventor friend. There are a lot of T2 BPOs, and I guarantee that 98% of them find new homes when the host quits. T2 BPOs provide a steady supply of T2 ensuring lower prices. Invention left on its own cannot sustain the entire T2 market at livable levels. Without T2 BPOs prices would be even higher, and that's something CCP, and EVE in general, cannot afford. Further I state that invention was never meant to replace T2 BPOs, but to relieve excess demand that BPOs on their own could not supply.
His is a legitimate question, it would be nice to know how many T2 BPOs were removed from the picture, and if they will be resseded or not.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:03:00 -
[137]
couple questions
1. Is it possible that this could have effected item balance? if an item was driven down in price because of this could ccp have decided it was too cheap for it's effect and balanced it down slighty?
2. Is there any way/reason for someone to come forward if they where involved or knew about this? Would you be lenient on thier punishment if they did come forward (for example removing the equivelant isk worth of assets + probationary period rather than straight out banning them). Having a reason for people to come forward I think would be a good thing, remember last story of someone coming forward during the 't20' incident and was banned (rightly so as he was a rl criminal hacker), but he seemed to be helpful in uncovering that case.
3. How did ccp discover this in the first place? I've heard ppl say it was cause someone came forward on some forum and admited to it, but I thought that person came forward cause he'd had all his accounts banned.
good work ccp keep it up.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:03:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Kaijusan Total and absolute whitewash.
Why do you think they are called Crowd Control Productions?
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Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:10:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Issler Dainze
CCP has found strong evidence of specific abuses beginning this year, it would seem strange that someone found out about this earlier, did it, then stopped and it only restarted again this year. Issler
Unless of course one patch had a knock-on effect to the bug that disabled it for a period of time and then another enabled it again.
And by analysing market data you will not see the true date/time-frame an exploit begun since it will only register when it actually touched the market. A lot of it might have been stored or just put into production and thus goes unseen by all accounts...
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:25:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Tarminic
I don't think you have a factual basis for your assumption that CCP is being dishonest when it comes to this issue. You're obviously assuming that CCP isn't telling the truth without any basis other than assumptions you've made about their corporate culture.
What facts exactly would change your opinion? Are you capable of trusting anyone other than yourself staring directly at CCP's market/bug/petition logs?
For 100% trust, nope mate. Only my own eyes can give me 100% trust. I may choose to say something is probably true, and stop thinking about it. But for complete trust, I need to see myself.
So all in all, no facts they present to me will make me trust CCP completely, but I might get to a point where I think probability of them telling the truth is high enough for me to stop worrying about it. I am far from that point atm, as you might be able to tell :)
PS. Employees aren't necessarily Devs. Take a look at the list and titles yourself. It has about 80 people listed (GM's excluded).
Well, I suppose at this point it's just a difference of opinion. I can agree to disagree.
Originally by: Kirgan Seems CCP is going to need a bigger rug to sweep this one under.
If CCP wanted to sweep this under the rug, they'd just lock any and all threads about it and refuse to acknowledge that suck an exploit existed in the first place. Is this damage control? Absolutely. But I wouldn't call this sweeping it under the rug, as they would not be discussing it and they certainly wouldn't promise us more information in the future. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:30:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Shacksman one question i havent seen come up is HOW MANY T2 BPO'S did any of these individuals have in there possesion, if they where doing this for four years they must have had a huge percent of the t2 market aswell.
will any of these bpos get reseeded
remember seeing a post about this and their looked to be quite a few 30+ iirc. nfi where I got the info from but remember seeing it on eve forums so it must be true.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:38:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Tarminic
If CCP wanted to sweep this under the rug, they'd just lock any and all threads about it and refuse to acknowledge that suck an exploit existed in the first place. Is this damage control? Absolutely. But I wouldn't call this sweeping it under the rug, as they would not be discussing it and they certainly wouldn't promise us more information in the future.
When people are starting to trip over your lumpy rug you then need to start supplying answers. Don't get me wrong, in many respects you're right in what you say. This wasn't swept under the rug, however I do wonder if - as was the case in the T20 incident - the SHC post hadn't appeared if the rug would have been considered a viable solution.
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Fubeca
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Posted - 2008.12.16 03:48:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Fubeca on 16/12/2008 03:49:33
Originally by: CCP Fallout
LaVista noted that guilty by association is wrong, the people that ran the operation should be banned. Things like titans that were funded by indirect isk should not be banned and from the Game MasterĘs point of view it would be hard as at some point everyone would be guilty.
So in other words, they are gonna let them get away with this. If I figured out the exploit and decided me or my alliance needed a titan or 10; I would have set up an alt to run it, tossed in some minimal isk laundering and then paid for these titans to be built... My goal would have been accomplished and all I would have lost was a banned alt built explicitly for this reason (which I would have paid for also using isk from the exploit) and whatever assets he happened to have at the time he was caught.
Of course its gonna be "hard" to clean up this mess, but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be cleaned. It's also "hard" to fight an alliance that has unlimited resources. By letting the indirect assets remain, you allow the exploiting people to win and are telling everyone else their legit efforts at making isk dont really matter in this game.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.12.16 04:05:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Kaijusan Total and absolute whitewash.
That about sums it up.
So basically, if you use alt corps to cheat at eve, your main accounts (and corps/alliances) are safe. Good to know.
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DaDutchDude
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.16 04:25:00 -
[145]
@CCP: Good job at taking the time to answer as many questions as you can openly. @CSM: Good job at really asking tough questions and pushing for answers.
@large part of the angry mob in this thread: really, stop taking this so seriously. It's a game, it's about having fun, it's about space ships that aren't actually made from non-existing materials but from bits and bytes.
Go out to the park, take a bike ride, go spend some quality time with your loved ones and only after you calmed down and realized it's all just a game, then come back to forums or log into game.
And BTW, any argument like "but they cheated and that's not fair" or "but I pay actual money and invest time and ..." just prove my point. Really, reconnect with real life. You don't _have_ to play this game, so if you're unhappy, go do something else with your time (and money) that you enjoy more.
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Ga'len
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.12.16 04:27:00 -
[146]
Originally by: DaDutchDude @CCP: Good job at taking the time to answer as many questions as you can openly. @CSM: Good job at really asking tough questions and pushing for answers.
@large part of the angry mob in this thread: really, stop taking this so seriously. It's a game, it's about having fun, it's about space ships that aren't actually made from non-existing materials but from bits and bytes.
Go out to the park, take a bike ride, go spend some quality time with your loved ones and only after you calmed down and realized it's all just a game, then come back to forums or log into game.
And BTW, any argument like "but they cheated and that's not fair" or "but I pay actual money and invest time and ..." just prove my point. Really, reconnect with real life. You don't _have_ to play this game, so if you're unhappy, go do something else with your time (and money) that you enjoy more.
QFE. I'm glad there are at least some reasonable people still posting on the forums!!!
http://www.eve-druid.com |
LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.12.16 04:47:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Shacksman one question i havent seen come up is HOW MANY T2 BPO'S did any of these individuals have in there possesion, if they where doing this for four years they must have had a huge percent of the t2 market aswell.
will any of these bpos get reseeded
I asked CCP Xhagen this question. It will hopefully be addressed at a later stage, at least I will be pushing for official words on that.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.12.16 05:14:00 -
[148]
And here I was, thinking that every release-patch snapshot in CCP's revision control system was tagged as such and the POS code of every release that made it onto TQ therefor easily constructable with a few lines of shellcode and cvs/svn/perf/... checkouts.
Oh well. Happy data mining
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.16 05:55:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Mioelnir And here I was, thinking that every release-patch snapshot in CCP's revision control system was tagged as such and the POS code of every release that made it onto TQ therefor easily constructable with a few lines of shellcode and cvs/svn/perf/... checkouts.
Oh well. Happy data mining
Based on the February 07 date mentioned, I'm guessing that their code/market/etc snapshots are compressed and archived after 9 months. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.16 06:35:00 -
[150]
Privace policy preventing CCP to name corps and alliances?
Funny. It didn't prevent them to name BoB as alliance in the t20 scandal.
This is MUCH bigger now with a significant larger impact onto gameplay and they don't name corps/alliances but hide instead behind privace policy which absolutely doesn't apply here?
That stinks.
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