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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Plague Black
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:24:00 -
[211]
I have a feeling that these logs have been heavily censored. They are a complete waste of time, full of elusive answers and smoke. I just wasted few minutes of my life hoping they will tel lme something I didn't already know.
CCP fails again. Keep trying, you might realise that customer is king one day and if you don't treat him as one you will fail regardless of the quality of your product. If people want transparency then give them full transparency.
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elric gallach
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:27:00 -
[212]
The trouble is someone involved is posting on another forum that. A He cheated for 4 years B he never paid to play eve for 4 years C others were doing it aswell and never got caught because they were tipped off. leading to the idea that someone in CCP did it. D CCP basicly tells us were not sure, Were trying to find out.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:29:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Roymundo i am the customer.
it is your job to make ME happy. not the other way around.
CCP: Here, have a Titan and all Lvl 5 skills, you apparently want to be happy!
Originally by: Roymundo give me a satisfactory answer to our concerns or i will take my business elsewhere.
Please do.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:31:00 -
[214]
Naming and shaming would only lead to that those corporations/alliances that had members involved in this would get a bad rep and become targets of repercussions from players, wether they were involved in it or not.
Leave the innocent be.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
KAELA MENSHA
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:36:00 -
[215]
trouble is we dont know who's innocent
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Dex Timor
Dead poets society
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:42:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Dex Timor on 16/12/2008 14:45:17
Originally by: Kuranta
Originally by: Ephemeron I just thought of something
CCP clearly says that naming characters is against their rules. Alright, what about corporation names?
How do CCP policy rules apply to naming of corporations?
This, tbh.
My guess: With the corporation name you can start searching for members. You'll find them on forums & killboards. And I even bet that the lynchmob will be happy to do this work for you.
I also think that CCP protects characternames, because knowing the character name might help someone identify the person in real life. That is something which CCP is NOT allowed to do without prior permission.
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Taelech
Caldari Caldari Design and Cryogenics
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:44:00 -
[217]
I've read many of the responses here and been amazed. While CCP is a company with a product and a clientbase, lets remember that the product is a game. No one is going to go hungry tonight because some alliance made some sort of economic coup. CCP is trying to make the game fun and fair. If you want it to be like reality... well that is neither fun nor fair in the long run. I realize that in game losses and lost opportunities can be frusterating, and institutional errors making those losses possible more so. Maybe I'm gullable, but I trust CCP. If it were my retirement funds I were talking about instead of internet spaceships, the trust threshold would be much higher. Let's all just try to have fun with the game.
Taelech - Professor emeritus - Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
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Ilda Mrika
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:47:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Naming and shaming would only lead to that those corporations/alliances that had members involved in this would get a bad rep and become targets of repercussions from players, wether they were involved in it or not.
Leave the innocent be.
Just lol.
You don't want to know who cheated? You don't want to know what corporations and alliances gained increadible advantage over everyone else? You don't want to know if certain alliances control 0.0 only because they had an unlimited source of isk? Right, you don't care do you? Yeah, why should we? Just let all players cheat their way in to wealth and world domination, we don't care. |
Killer Gandry
Caldari Red Horizon Inc
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:48:00 -
[219]
I think the big question people actually want to ask is:
Was there in any way a GM or a few GM's involded in this or any other employee of CCP and if so are actions being taken aswell ingame as outgame?
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:51:00 -
[220]
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA trouble is we dont know who's innocent
And why do you even care? Except for the omgdrool gossip value?
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:52:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Killer Gandry I think the big question people actually want to ask is:
Was there in any way a GM or a few GM's involded in this or any other employee of CCP and if so are actions being taken aswell ingame as outgame?
`
That is a valid question however. I do however strongly doubt it.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Dex Timor
Dead poets society
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:54:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Ilda Mrika
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Naming and shaming would only lead to that those corporations/alliances that had members involved in this would get a bad rep and become targets of repercussions from players, wether they were involved in it or not.
Leave the innocent be.
Just lol.
You don't want to know who cheated? You don't want to know what corporations and alliances gained increadible advantage over everyone else? You don't want to know if certain alliances control 0.0 only because they had an unlimited source of isk? Right, you don't care do you? Yeah, why should we? Just let all players cheat their way in to wealth and world domination, we don't care.
Of course curiosity drives me ... I would like to know. But I don't need to know. All I need is a patch for known bugs and the knowledge some perpetrators got banned. Just like real criminals ... let them pay for what they've done, but don't expose them to the public. Why would you ? It would only satisfy our lust for vengeance, our own moral shortcomings.
I mean, yeah ... let's start crucifying people again, burn witches, gladiator fights. This all served to entertain people in the past. We don't evolve so quickly as a race that it wouldn't entertain us today.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:01:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Twoside
Originally by: Gnulpie Privace policy preventing CCP to name corps and alliances?
Funny. It didn't prevent them to name BoB as alliance in the t20 scandal.
The T20 scandel was made public not by CCP and CCP didn't make an announcement untill they had no other option.
Sorry to burt your bubble, but CCP made an official post regarding the t20 scandal and they named the alliance (BoB) which was involved.
They gave names of involved alliances so what prevents them from doing so this time? They didn't give names of individuals, but they gave name of the alliance. Why not this time?!
And regarding 'they had no other option'. Does this mean that the players need only to make a big enough effort in a campaign against CCP on various gaming forums until they submit to the crowd? I don't think that cannot be a solution. But that is exactly what you are suggesting.
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ShortRedOne
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:06:00 -
[224]
Edited by: ShortRedOne on 16/12/2008 15:07:52 I don't think anyone is going to be happy until CCP actually get a truely independent external auditor to monitor all ingame going ons.
CCP need to name the banned pilot names (they aren't covered by privacy as they are not real people, only false names chosen by the players) At the moment any innocent party that appears to have too much isk/stuff can be made to look guilty eg BOB or GOONS etc.
Saying you got rid of 70 people without some form of proof really tells us nothing, you could have said 700 and we'd be none the wiser. People want 'trusted' verification.
CCP most people would love to totally believe everything you say but after the attmepts to stop the T20 incident from going public you have a lot of work to do to regain the trust. CSM was supposed to do this but they just seem to be getting the same responses everyone else gets but more directly.
People are worried that corps/alliances that get named for doing this will be hounded and destroyed. Good they deserve to be taken out by the player base using the in game mechanics. This will also have the effect of spreading any ill gotten gains throughout the game when the members all move onto other corps rather than keeping them all in one place.
Even if CCP don't get an external auditor in to monitor the game, CCP need to revisit their policy on not naming banned pilots. Pilots caught exploiting should have their bodies and backup clones flushed by Concord so they can never do it again.
There should be a post each month on the forums from Concord listing numbers of pilots flushed for using banned ship controls(macros) and exploiting. The list should be updated after all forms of appeal are exhausted with the names of the banned pilots.
CCP keep claiming that they keep removing macro'rs but the playerbase doesn't see any evidence of this ingame, this is hurting CCP and Eve, and not help when CCP decide to release their next game onto the market.
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Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:07:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Naming and shaming would only lead to that those corporations/alliances that had members involved in this would get a bad rep and become targets of repercussions from players, wether they were involved in it or not.
you should have IQ > 5 to post on forums
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Ilda Mrika
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:20:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Dex Timor
Originally by: Ilda Mrika
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Naming and shaming would only lead to that those corporations/alliances that had members involved in this would get a bad rep and become targets of repercussions from players, wether they were involved in it or not.
Leave the innocent be.
Just lol.
You don't want to know who cheated? You don't want to know what corporations and alliances gained increadible advantage over everyone else? You don't want to know if certain alliances control 0.0 only because they had an unlimited source of isk? Right, you don't care do you? Yeah, why should we? Just let all players cheat their way in to wealth and world domination, we don't care.
Of course curiosity drives me ... I would like to know. But I don't need to know. All I need is a patch for known bugs and the knowledge some perpetrators got banned. Just like real criminals ... let them pay for what they've done, but don't expose them to the public. Why would you ? It would only satisfy our lust for vengeance, our own moral shortcomings.
I mean, yeah ... let's start crucifying people again, burn witches, gladiator fights. This all served to entertain people in the past. We don't evolve so quickly as a race that it wouldn't entertain us today.
That's a bit over the edge. Don't need to get back to the dark days of history but i only tell you this: Is there anyone in the worls, real or virtual, that commits a crime, gets caught, gets punished and his/hers identity remains unknown? And yeah, this is only a game, that's way it's even more logic for people to know who are the cheaters and yes, get their revenge if they want to. After all we are talking about virtual people here, this privacy policy is plain pathetic. |
tropic89
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:30:00 -
[227]
I can assure you, I have corpmates that reported this to ccp 2 1/2 years ago as a bug. The gm acknowleged the bug, and then nothing was said about it again to him. So, it was reported by those of us honest players/corps as a possible exploit that far back. |
Bael Uthir
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:34:00 -
[228]
Honestly, I think any one who was involved in the back bone of this should have their accounts reinstated, ALL of their assets stripped and if they are the head of a Corporation, all of the corps assets as well, then they should be made outlaws in all systems, KoS by Concord and everyone else.
This would work in a couple of ways, one they will either quit or we will get a real element of criminal in the systems. Since they would be KoS it is a kill or be killed type of situation.
Granted I don't have that much experience here, but I can't see as to how banning the accounts will lead to anything fruitful, but being flagged criminal, that is just brimming with future stories.
And yes, yes to all those haters, flamers, and Intellectuals, stupid idea from a stupid person blah blah blah. I don't see any other ideas out there except, <cry>What are their Names!</cry>
That is all.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:45:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Mioelnir And here I was, thinking that every release-patch snapshot in CCP's revision control system was tagged as such and the POS code of every release that made it onto TQ therefor easily constructable with a few lines of shellcode and cvs/svn/perf/... checkouts.
Oh well. Happy data mining
Based on the February 07 date mentioned, I'm guessing that their code/market/etc snapshots are compressed and archived after 9 months.
What he was looking at must have been the market data, which has been stored somewhere, not the code. Which is why they could see when it started getting exploited, not when it was possible.
However, the market logs are likely in raw format, and to make it useful for a certain purpose, you need to e.g. take all those transactions and POS reaction output log events and build meaningful (and condensed) statistics from it. So instead of having thousands of log entries on transactions and production runs with ferrogel per hour, you get some easy-to-use numbers compiled from that data.
Now they just need to go back a few years of logs and apply the analytic tools developed for creating the economic newsletters. (With some modifications perhaps to get a better overview of these kinds of exploits)
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Ilda Mrika
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:46:00 -
[230]
Originally by: tropic89 I can assure you, I have corpmates that reported this to ccp 2 1/2 years ago as a bug. The gm acknowleged the bug, and then nothing was said about it again to him. So, it was reported by those of us honest players/corps as a possible exploit that far back.
Well, I tend to believe you, CCP's past history contributes a lot to my beliefe. But all the fanbois will say - proof or stfu - we do need some kind of proof, beacuse ccp has the knife and butter in their hands, they have the database and the logs, they can say whatever they want. So, people that have bug reported this, petitioned it or sent e-mails need to present some kind of proof. If that doesn't happen, all we have left are rumours. |
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Napro
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:03:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Napro on 16/12/2008 16:04:01
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA trouble is we dont know who's innocent
And why do you even care? Except for the omgdrool gossip value?
Um.. because we need to know who has 500 ill-gotten battleships waiting in their hangars when we risk our hard earned ships in pvp?
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:26:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Napro Edited by: Napro on 16/12/2008 16:04:01
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA trouble is we dont know who's innocent
And why do you even care? Except for the omgdrool gossip value?
Um.. because we need to know who has 500 ill-gotten battleships waiting in their hangars when we risk our hard earned ships in pvp?
Not if said person is banned. All I care about is that the responsible people get what they deserve. And as far as CCP has said, that has happened, or is in the process of happening. I could care less WHO did what. As long as he gets the fat end of the banhammer, I'm satisfied.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
ceaon
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:14:00 -
[233]
3 things to say
1) CCP should hire some professionals bug-hunters 2) petition should be sorted by ccp before get on GM hands 3) automated reply and petition close is not good blah |
Liu
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:20:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: Napro Edited by: Napro on 16/12/2008 16:04:01
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA trouble is we dont know who's innocent
And why do you even care? Except for the omgdrool gossip value?
Um.. because we need to know who has 500 ill-gotten battleships waiting in their hangars when we risk our hard earned ships in pvp?
Not if said person is banned. All I care about is that the responsible people get what they deserve. And as far as CCP has said, that has happened, or is in the process of happening. I could care less WHO did what. As long as he gets the fat end of the banhammer, I'm satisfied.
the problem here is that what we can understand from CCP's words is that they are banning whoever produced the battleships, but keeping them on the hands of their actual owners, who will probably be the main of the banned alt. there is a very clear lesson we will learn from there
Those goods are made of ghost-mineral, and should disappear.
Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
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Droog 1
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:22:00 -
[235]
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA trouble is we dont know who's innocent
Trouble is we don't know how many of the people up in arms and crying on the forums are friends/alts of the people that got banned. The people who cheated claimed that this had been going on for 4 years which is complete and utter bull****. It's funny how people refuse to accept CCPs explanation but accept the word of a bunch of cheating mofos who are proven liars isn't it?
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Innocent II
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:28:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Droog 1
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA trouble is we dont know who's innocent
Trouble is we don't know how many of the people up in arms and crying on the forums are friends/alts of the people that got banned. The people who cheated claimed that this had been going on for 4 years which is complete and utter bull****. It's funny how people refuse to accept CCPs explanation but accept the word of a bunch of cheating mofos who are proven liars isn't it?
I accept CCP explanation, I do not accept their way to fix this.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:39:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Liu the problem here is that what we can understand from CCP's words is that they are banning whoever produced the battleships, but keeping them on the hands of their actual owners, who will probably be the main of the banned alt. there is a very clear lesson we will learn from there
Those goods are made of ghost-mineral, and should disappear.
I would assume that if one account of one owner was banned, the person (hence the registering credit card) was banned as well. Probably via IP too. Yes, it's avoidable if you bother, but in all essence, the main will be banned as well.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Julia Leyton
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:42:00 -
[238]
Well, CCP wont do a name and shame in this one simply because its pointless. They can say Names, but who would care ? Noone, because there the called player would just play on an alt from that point on.
The really funky part is that CCP failed big time.
300 devs ... 1+week (or maybe 4 years, roflcopter) ... 1 supa**** economist (35% ferrogel fake, still sees nothing) ... loads of angry ppl on the forums ...
i bet theres still 10 times more ppl working on Walking in Stations than on some random critical exploit concerning POS ...
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Donkee Punch
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:55:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Ephemeron So naming characters is absolutely against the policy.
Can someone explain why we have such a policy in the first place? Why do some CCP people have strong feelings that this is the way it should be?
I would understand if there was a question of real account information: such as the account name, account passport, credit card numbers, real person names. All that should be rightfully private. But a character name in game?
I just don't see the reason.
When you think about it the reason NOT to name names is fairly obvious. People that have no real association to this scandal, other than to have been in the same corp or alliance could (and given the mentality of a LOT of the playerbase) would have their gameplay severly negatively affected.
These people may have only been in the corp (and might well have been unaware) that was part of the scam. But found they stood too close to the **** grenade when it went off, and got covered in nastiness simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I'm all for banning ALL those directly responsible and seizing the illicit assets of those who directly benifeted. But the "Name and Shame Game" will do nothing to heal this wound only cause it to fester.
That being said, we do deserve an accounting of numbers both isk and accounts when this settles out.. but numbers only ... no names.
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Innocent II
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:07:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Donkee Punch When you think about it the reason NOT to name names is fairly obvious. People that have no real association to this scandal, other than to have been in the same corp or alliance could (and given the mentality of a LOT of the playerbase) would have their gameplay severly negatively affected.
Ban them all. When ambulation comes, I want the headless corpse museum in Jita where I can visit them.
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