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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jah'Ret Khan No. It's not.
You fail at politics and forms of govenrment.
Again you base your arguments with flwless logic. Oh wait there are no arguments here, yet again
Quote:
Where are those thousands of people who agree wiht you now? Damn... guess they're abstaining or something...
In the same exact place the thousands of people who disagree with me are.
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl Etho You no longer seem to be debating your original post, and now seem to be attacking other peoples views. Perhaps now would be a good idea to re-think or re-iterate your original point...?
Disagreeing with other people views is called debate. As long as it is kept rational and argumentative I like to debate. I find it very healthy. You seem to dislike it though. So why exactly are you posting this? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Cyberian Ragnos
The Fine Gentlemen Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:47:00 -
[32]
I fully support this, but I don't think they will do it...
@ the OP: Stop trying to argue with the Goon. It is pointless, Goons are trolls. |
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:48:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Ezekyle Rahl on 16/12/2008 17:51:58 Oh my apologies I thought we were debating the position of the CSM. Its pretty clear that you... are not. Must of being the topic title confused me, but by all means continue to "debate" democracy with Jah'Ret Khan, it really reinforces your OP.
I'll see if I can get the powers that be to change the topic from "Should CSM members resign" to something more suited like "My views on Democracy" |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:57:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 17:58:20
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl Oh my apologies I thought we were debating the position of the CSM. Its pretty clear that you... are not. Must of being the topic title confused me, but by all means continue to "debate" democracy with Jah'Ret Khan, it really reinforces your OP.
The representativity and relevancy of the posts in this forum was questioned. I explained that those who ommit themselves are ignored in a democratic process. The whole point of the CSM would be moot otherwise, because neither their positions nor any motion in this forum will ever have more than 10-20% of the total player base.
So discussing about democracy is actually closely relately to my motion.
If you think the representativity of the people who post here is enough, the people that called for transparency in mass, althoguht they are NOT thousands, then the CSM should be adamant about the will of those who ellected them and resign if not listened to.
If you think the representativity of the people who post here is not enough, the CSM is not a legit voice for the player base and there is no motive for it to exist.
Either wai it should be disbanded... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:00:00 -
[35]
You seem to be under the impression that the CSM has the power to change things, as long as the majority vote for it |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:10:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl You seem to be under the impression that the CSM has the power to change things, as long as the majority vote for it
I am not. And that is the main motive I opened this thread.
The CSM, as it is, is just a PR stunt by CCP. It works as a facade so CCP can pretend it listens to its playerbase, which it does not. If the CSM has no power and can't change things, at least its members could deny CCP this facade. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Doonoo Boonoo
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 17:17:43
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo OP makes up his own figures and claims them to be fact. It is not CCPs or the CSMs job to pander to conspiracy theorists who will never be happy.
NO
The OP should take the advice in his sig but lacks the courage of his convictions. He looks like another whiner who does nothing else except complain.
My sig is a compliment to the guy who made the worst PR statment I have ever seen. That in times of George W Bush is a high standard. It is a gift...
And no, I won't stop playing. No matter how much it infuriates people like you. I suggest some anger control for you.
What makes you think I'm angry? I'm laughing my arse off at your failthread where you suggest the CSM should resign over this exploit and the lack of support it's getting. I'm laughing because you think you are entitled to know more. I can tell you now that you will never, ever get what you think you are entitled to and the CSM will not resign.
You however, are still posting your opinions and stating them to be fact. Imo your sig is the best statement CCP have ever made because it puts you firmly in your place doesn't it? It tells you exactly what I'm telling you.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:26:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo
What makes you think I'm angry? I'm laughing my arse off at your failthread where you suggest the CSM should resign over this exploit and the lack of support it's getting. I'm laughing because you think you are entitled to know more. I can tell you now that you will never, ever get what you think you are entitled to and the CSM will not resign.
I am quite happy with both supporters and contenders in this thread. Both have prooved my point. And I am under no illusion that the CSM will resign. Their resignation is not as important to me as the discussion itself. Thank you for keeping it alive.
Quote: You however, are still posting your opinions and stating them to be fact. Imo your sig is the best statement CCP have ever made because it puts you firmly in your place doesn't it? It tells you exactly what I'm telling you.
You are entitled to disagree with me and prove wrong, mr alt. Unfortunately I don't see anything in your words beside emorage disguised as trolling. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:26:00 -
[39]
What exactly would knowing banned character names accomplish?
Forgive me for saying this, but this just sounds like rubbernecking to me.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:27:00 -
[40]
Quote: What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
This was addressed in my first post, perhaps you overlooked it.
Quote: The CSM, as it is, is just a PR stunt by CCP. It works as a facade so CCP can pretend it listens to its playerbase, which it does not. If the CSM has no power and can't change things, at least its members could deny CCP this facade.
The CSM has no power over CCP they advise, end of story I think. |
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Exlegion
Caldari New Light
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:43:00 -
[41]
But you have yet to answer the question. What exactly would this accomplish?
If you were to get names of banned characters, corporations, and alliances, what purpose would this serve? Is it so you can go about 'serving your own plate of justice'? Keep in mind there may be players/corporations which had nothing to do and may have not even been aware of what was taking place.
The damage has already been done. Knowing banned character/corporation names won't solve anything. It will just spur some of our most 'self-rightous' players to perform their own form of "vigilante" justice on whomever might have exchanged a "hello" with such offenders.
Really, I think the community can deal without the extra griefing at this time.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl
The CSM has no power over CCP they advise, end of story I think.
That is exactly my point. Can you point me a single situation where the CSM existence made a difference at all? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:53:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 18:53:48
Originally by: Exlegion But you have yet to answer the question. What exactly would this accomplish?
If you were to get names of banned characters, corporations, and alliances, what purpose would this serve? Is it so you can go about 'serving your own plate of justice'? Keep in mind there may be players/corporations which had nothing to do and may have not even been aware of what was taking place.
The damage has already been done. Knowing banned character/corporation names won't solve anything. It will just spur some of our most 'self-rightous' players to perform their own form of "vigilante" justice on whomever might have exchanged a "hello" with such offenders.
Really, I think the community can deal without the extra griefing at this time.
It would serve the same purpose it serves to expose corrupt politicians in the papers. Name and shame them, and by association those closely related to him.
If nothing else it would serve to prove the innocence of those that are unrelated to them. As it is now, lots of accusations have been thrown by a lot of people. Some of these may be right, others may not. In the absence of information both guilty and innocent end stained, though. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:57:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Exlegion on 16/12/2008 18:57:41
Quote: That is exactly my point. Can you point me a single situation where the CSM existence made a difference at all?
Perhaps it's because the CSM is wasting time and effort asking the wrong questions.
Instead of concentrating on the whodunit!1! how about they work on how to avoid this from happening again in the future.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
That is exactly my point. Can you point me a single situation where the CSM existence made a difference at all?
Now you're just being ignorant.
Watch the CSM panel video from fanFest 2008 and they address this question and answer it.
Your thread is an excuse for you to ***** about the CSM because you don't like it. Troll. ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
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Exlegion
Caldari New Light
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:07:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel It would serve the same purpose it serves to expose corrupt politicians in the papers. Name and shame them, and by association those closely related to him.
They're perma-banned character names, not real life politicians. And what if their close associations had nothing to do with the exploit? What if they weren't even aware of what was going on?
Quote: If nothing else it would serve to prove the innocence of those that are unrelated to them. As it is now, lots of accusations have been thrown by a lot of people. Some of these may be right, others may not. In the absence of information both guilty and innocent end stained, though.
You're already talking about naming and shaming their "close associations", whether they had anything to do with it or not . All this would bring is a number of vigilante groups to conduct their 'own investigations, trials, and forms of justice'. It won't help.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Ticondrius
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:10:00 -
[47]
While the OP is a bit off his rocker, the basic point he makes is valid. What good does having the CSM do for us? Nothing. The only thing it DOES do is make us think that CCP is actually hearing our grievances as compared to never reading our posts on the forums...when they actually were.
So, instead of passively waiting for CCP guys to read our ideas and so forth, we now have an outlet to actively send them info on issues we consider important.
The ultimate problem with the CSM, as with the original method of making suggestion topics in the forum for them, is that CCP is not beholden to accomplish anything the Suggestions or CSM propose. AT ALL. That's like having the ultimate veto power.
The greatest issue the CSM faces is that it's not a meeting point for equals, like parliament and the US Congress is supposed to be, but is instead more like a religious interface where one can pray to the gods and hope for a blessing.
The CSM needs a House of Players, House of Developers, and a Prime Minister. And ultimately, be able to decide the direction EVE takes, not just provide feedback or suggestions. No one should be above the law, and right now the dev side of the table IS ABOVE THE LAW.
Before the 'This is a game, not RL' crew comes along, let me just say that it was CCP who decided to create some form of metagaming organization that became the CSM, making reality and virtuality begin to blend. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:36:00 -
[48]
People complained CCP didn't listen to them and were evil corrupt monsters or something.
CCP gave us a direct avenue for them to listen to us. The CSM take the concerns, questions, ideas and grievances of the players to CCP. And CCP listen. And where CCP are led to believe work is needed and can be done, work is done. From what the CSM said they were also shown how it is CCP now police themselves and are satisfied that this process works and there will not be another T20.
CCP need veto because the honest truth is that a whole pile of players have stupid ideas and say stupid things, so the worst ideas that will damage THEIR game and THEIR company (not yours, you didn't programme it or fund the company 15 years back, you just pay to be allowed to play THEIR game) will be taken out.
They've given us a voice. Not control, not a mandate or whatever, just a voice. And they will listen to that voice and when they agree with us they will act.
This is not a diplomatic organization where we, the unwashed masses, call the shots. This is a business and the livlihood of hundreds of people, so they will call the shots. It was never sold to us in any other form, and no promises were made. ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jah'Ret Khan P They've given us a voice. Not control, not a mandate or whatever, just a voice. And they will listen to that voice and when they agree with us they will act.
They have given us a farse. Nothing else. We already had a voice, it was called the forums. We don't need the csm to have a voice, and they are completely inconsequent at this. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:12:00 -
[50]
I do find it amusing that this issue requires the CSM in order to get anywhere further than a forum thread.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:22:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I do find it amusing that this issue requires the CSM in order to get anywhere further than a forum thread.
Is it going any further? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I do find it amusing that this issue requires the CSM in order to get anywhere further than a forum thread.
Is it going any further?
No, in my opinion.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:25:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Is it going any further?
No, in my opinion.
So, it does not need the CSM after all, does it? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Is it going any further?
No, in my opinion.
So, it does not need the CSM after all, does it?
Your conclusions represent the diametric opposite of all indications given by the facts.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 21:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Your conclusions represent the diametric opposite of all indications given by the facts.
Then please list the said facts and the correct conclusions, please. If possible in an objective way. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2008.12.16 23:41:00 -
[56]
/me abstains ----------------------
My Blog |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.16 23:57:00 -
[57]
Can we try to NOT bash the CSM every bloody freaking stupid assed day of the week and try to cut it down to once a month?
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.17 00:52:00 -
[58]
Dear Etho,
Part of the democratic process is having quorum. Just because a particular pet thread of yours was full of wet towel "me too" responses, doesn't mean that you have unanimous support from everyone who cares.
The people who didn't respond to those threads might have simply been more enlightened beings than yourself who avoided an obvious troll thread.
One's refusal to participate in a lynch mob does not mean that one is abstaining from discussion on a topic.
Your failure to understand the purpose of the CSM does not mean that they should resign for having failed to achieve some goal which you had expected of them.
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Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.17 01:43:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
The people who didn't respond to those threads might have simply been more enlightened beings than yourself who avoided an obvious troll thread.
Whilst I agree the thread has gone off-topic, to call it an obvious troll thread is doing it a disservice.
Originally by: Mara Rinn
One's refusal to participate in a lynch mob does not mean that one is abstaining from discussion on a topic.
Is the desire to have a public lynching or just an irrelevant troll or what then?
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Your failure to understand the purpose of the CSM does not mean that they should resign for having failed to achieve some goal which you had expected of them.
What exactly is the role of the CSM as far as your concerned? What was the point of them being involved in this at all?
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.12.17 01:53:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/12/2008 01:57:45
Originally by: Mara Rinn Dear Etho,
Part of the democratic process is having quorum. Just because a particular pet thread of yours was full of wet towel "me too" responses, doesn't mean that you have unanimous support from everyone who cares.
The people who didn't respond to those threads might have simply been more enlightened beings than yourself who avoided an obvious troll thread.
One's refusal to participate in a lynch mob does not mean that one is abstaining from discussion on a topic.
Your failure to understand the purpose of the CSM does not mean that they should resign for having failed to achieve some goal which you had expected of them.
There are several examples of both democratic processes that require quorums and those that don't.
For the sake of clarity lets then define what you think should be the case here. Both regarding the members' election and their actions.
Choose one:
1) the people who don't participate in a democratic decision are irrevelant.
2) the people who don't participate in a democratic decision are revelant.
If you chose (1) then what matters here is the number of people who activelly vote for or against a topic and they should be considered as the totality of the voters in the subject. Those who abstain won't be considered giving their votes to one side or the other, like you wrongly suggested, but at the end, as the result of their abstinence they would have agreed with the wining side. That is how elections for government representatives work in most of the world.
I you chose (2) then both the CSM members and all of their motions to this date are illegal, as they don't have suficient quorum to represent not even 50% of the potential voters in the game.
Either way my point remains, they should ne disband either because they do represent a majority of the active people who asked for disclosure and were denied, and this majority is enough, or they should resign because the people who voted on them and who write in these forums are not plentiful enough to decide for the rest.
One last note, about your lynch mob example. If you are asked by the lynch mob if they should lynch someone and you say you will abstain from giving your opinion, you ARE helping the act to take place, and by the law of many countries you can be judged guilty by negligence. If you are against the act, the correct way of showing it is by giving your opinion.
Edit: And one more thing, you argue that I do not understand the purpose of the CSM. You are right on this, I don't, to the point that I think such purpose does not exist. If I am wrong, please, enlighten me with what this purpose would be? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
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