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Origim
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Posted - 2004.07.17 20:11:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Origim on 17/07/2004 20:13:24 Asking for Tech1 Cruisers & Frigs to be useful in Fleet battles is like asking for Level 10 player in a level-based MMORPG to be useful in a group of 10 Level 50 players hunting high-level NPCs.
Sorry, but that is how it is. Tech 2 ships is the only way to make frigates/cruisers appear in fleet battles.. afterall, you can't make a newbie's ship so powerful that others can make it useful in Fleet battles. It's good enought that Cruisers like Thorax & Blackbird and T1 frigates like Rifer are used in Fleet engagements already. --------------
Posting Efficiency / Rank 1 / SP: 68542 of 256000 |
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Origim
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Posted - 2004.07.17 20:11:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Origim on 17/07/2004 20:13:24 Asking for Tech1 Cruisers & Frigs to be useful in Fleet battles is like asking for Level 10 player in a level-based MMORPG to be useful in a group of 10 Level 50 players hunting high-level NPCs.
Sorry, but that is how it is. Tech 2 ships is the only way to make frigates/cruisers appear in fleet battles.. afterall, you can't make a newbie's ship so powerful that others can make it useful in Fleet battles. It's good enought that Cruisers like Thorax & Blackbird and T1 frigates like Rifer are used in Fleet engagements already. --------------
Posting Efficiency / Rank 1 / SP: 68542 of 256000 |
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Kleric
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Posted - 2004.07.17 21:34:00 -
[3]
WHAAAAT are you talking about? tech 1 or tier 1? .. tech 1 cruisers and frigates are very useful in combat.. dual mwd rupture incursus and many others.. tier 1 .... they are supposed to suck you cant ask for a slow weak ship that cant fit many guns to fight a ship with 8 guns? or 6 launhcers? ..
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Kleric
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Posted - 2004.07.17 21:34:00 -
[4]
WHAAAAT are you talking about? tech 1 or tier 1? .. tech 1 cruisers and frigates are very useful in combat.. dual mwd rupture incursus and many others.. tier 1 .... they are supposed to suck you cant ask for a slow weak ship that cant fit many guns to fight a ship with 8 guns? or 6 launhcers? ..
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Origim
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Posted - 2004.07.17 21:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kleric WHAAAAT are you talking about? tech 1 or tier 1? .. tech 1 cruisers and frigates are very useful in combat.. dual mwd rupture incursus and many others.. tier 1 .... they are supposed to suck you cant ask for a slow weak ship that cant fit many guns to fight a ship with 8 guns? or 6 launhcers? ..
Well, I can't say about usefullness of Icusrus/Rupture etcin FULL PVP fleet combat (30+ ships), but this thread is to all those who say that ALL Tech 1 Frigs & Cruisers should be usefull in Fleet battles. --------------
Posting Efficiency / Rank 1 / SP: 68542 of 256000 |
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Origim
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Posted - 2004.07.17 21:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kleric WHAAAAT are you talking about? tech 1 or tier 1? .. tech 1 cruisers and frigates are very useful in combat.. dual mwd rupture incursus and many others.. tier 1 .... they are supposed to suck you cant ask for a slow weak ship that cant fit many guns to fight a ship with 8 guns? or 6 launhcers? ..
Well, I can't say about usefullness of Icusrus/Rupture etcin FULL PVP fleet combat (30+ ships), but this thread is to all those who say that ALL Tech 1 Frigs & Cruisers should be usefull in Fleet battles. --------------
Posting Efficiency / Rank 1 / SP: 68542 of 256000 |
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Mr Popov
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Posted - 2004.07.17 21:58:00 -
[7]
a Blackbird, with 6 medium slots, will always be useful, unless they change how EW is handled.
Assuming the above statement: Ruptures will always be useful as BB hunters
Assuming the above statement: Frigates will always be useful as Rupture "hindrences" (try chasing a rupture in a fleet-setup BS)
...
See the lovely rock-paper-scissors balance CCP has created? Yes ALL tech 1 ships are useful in Fleet battles.
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Mr Popov
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Posted - 2004.07.17 21:58:00 -
[8]
a Blackbird, with 6 medium slots, will always be useful, unless they change how EW is handled.
Assuming the above statement: Ruptures will always be useful as BB hunters
Assuming the above statement: Frigates will always be useful as Rupture "hindrences" (try chasing a rupture in a fleet-setup BS)
...
See the lovely rock-paper-scissors balance CCP has created? Yes ALL tech 1 ships are useful in Fleet battles.
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Adreena
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Posted - 2004.07.17 22:40:00 -
[9]
It's not an "hack'n'slash", it's more strategic. Large weapons can do huge damage, but can't hit small ships, but these small ships can't destroy the big ship with the large weapons because they are not enough powerful. (So they need to be a pack)
This is only the base of space strategy. After that you find ships with very specific roles. If you don't know how use a ship, it seems useless for you...
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Adreena
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Posted - 2004.07.17 22:40:00 -
[10]
It's not an "hack'n'slash", it's more strategic. Large weapons can do huge damage, but can't hit small ships, but these small ships can't destroy the big ship with the large weapons because they are not enough powerful. (So they need to be a pack)
This is only the base of space strategy. After that you find ships with very specific roles. If you don't know how use a ship, it seems useless for you...
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2004.07.17 22:44:00 -
[11]
i think some of you are missing the point. What he's saying is that a condor is never gonna match up to an intercep in a fleet battle, etc. and that they shouldn't. an osprey is also not gonna take out a bb or moa _______________________________________________________
Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram. |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2004.07.17 22:44:00 -
[12]
i think some of you are missing the point. What he's saying is that a condor is never gonna match up to an intercep in a fleet battle, etc. and that they shouldn't. an osprey is also not gonna take out a bb or moa _______________________________________________________
Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram. |
NoHawker
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Posted - 2004.07.17 23:19:00 -
[13]
Well ships in EVE are disposible and frigates and cruisers are disposible like tissues. So no one will hang on to a Tier 1 any thing unless it's a Battleship. Just goes to show you the realism CCP has incorperated to their game.
In WW2 Britain was more then greatful for the hundreds of WW1 Destroyers USA lend them before USA entry to the war. They where put to good use and protected many convoys.
If Britain was say in a EVE world they would have recycled the Destroyers and magicaly buy/build hundreds of Tier 4 Destroyers in one day.
What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir |
NoHawker
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Posted - 2004.07.17 23:19:00 -
[14]
Well ships in EVE are disposible and frigates and cruisers are disposible like tissues. So no one will hang on to a Tier 1 any thing unless it's a Battleship. Just goes to show you the realism CCP has incorperated to their game.
In WW2 Britain was more then greatful for the hundreds of WW1 Destroyers USA lend them before USA entry to the war. They where put to good use and protected many convoys.
If Britain was say in a EVE world they would have recycled the Destroyers and magicaly buy/build hundreds of Tier 4 Destroyers in one day.
What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir |
Valan
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Posted - 2004.07.17 23:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mr Popov a Blackbird, with 6 medium slots, will always be useful, unless they change how EW is handled.
Assuming the above statement: Ruptures will always be useful as BB hunters
Assuming the above statement: Frigates will always be useful as Rupture "hindrences" (try chasing a rupture in a fleet-setup BS)
...
See the lovely rock-paper-scissors balance CCP has created? Yes ALL tech 1 ships are useful in Fleet battles.
You're right there, I only had a Scorp to hand you need a specialist set up to catch a marauding speeding Rupture.
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Valan
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Posted - 2004.07.17 23:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mr Popov a Blackbird, with 6 medium slots, will always be useful, unless they change how EW is handled.
Assuming the above statement: Ruptures will always be useful as BB hunters
Assuming the above statement: Frigates will always be useful as Rupture "hindrences" (try chasing a rupture in a fleet-setup BS)
...
See the lovely rock-paper-scissors balance CCP has created? Yes ALL tech 1 ships are useful in Fleet battles.
You're right there, I only had a Scorp to hand you need a specialist set up to catch a marauding speeding Rupture.
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Garion Maki
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Posted - 2004.07.17 23:55:00 -
[17]
actualy, in about 90% of the MMORPG's, if you can get enough of lvl10 players together, then they will be able to take on the same enemy's as a single lvl 50 player can take on.
in eve, if you get enough newby frigates together, then you can and will take down a BS (if the frigates are equipt well not yust the newby gun) the difference is that 1 frigate can't go up against 1 bs... you would need several frigates to go up against that 1 bs, yust like you would need several lvl10 players to go up against that lvl50 mob.
another thing is that allot of the ships in eve have more specific roles... a frigate is beter at scrambling somthing than a BS, but a BS is better at blowing the hell out of somthing than a frigate.
as example, for the last week or 2, I've been flying a scramble frigate into corp pvp. if my entire corp would have been in scramble frigates, then the enemy would yust have shot us to pieces (missiles can still hit hard ) if we had all gone in battleships, then the enemy would yust have fired some shots at us and ran away once they started to take damage. with a combination of fast frigates to scramble the enemy and heavy bs firepower to destroy them however, we could engage and destroy them. (btw, in the last week or 2, I lost about 1 ship every 2 days mostly frigates tho... and it was worth it )
currently recruiting euro players. |
Garion Maki
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Posted - 2004.07.17 23:55:00 -
[18]
actualy, in about 90% of the MMORPG's, if you can get enough of lvl10 players together, then they will be able to take on the same enemy's as a single lvl 50 player can take on.
in eve, if you get enough newby frigates together, then you can and will take down a BS (if the frigates are equipt well not yust the newby gun) the difference is that 1 frigate can't go up against 1 bs... you would need several frigates to go up against that 1 bs, yust like you would need several lvl10 players to go up against that lvl50 mob.
another thing is that allot of the ships in eve have more specific roles... a frigate is beter at scrambling somthing than a BS, but a BS is better at blowing the hell out of somthing than a frigate.
as example, for the last week or 2, I've been flying a scramble frigate into corp pvp. if my entire corp would have been in scramble frigates, then the enemy would yust have shot us to pieces (missiles can still hit hard ) if we had all gone in battleships, then the enemy would yust have fired some shots at us and ran away once they started to take damage. with a combination of fast frigates to scramble the enemy and heavy bs firepower to destroy them however, we could engage and destroy them. (btw, in the last week or 2, I lost about 1 ship every 2 days mostly frigates tho... and it was worth it )
currently recruiting euro players. |
Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2004.07.18 00:46:00 -
[19]
This is not a level based mmorpg. This is EVE it is not like the games you are comparing it too. The fact that it is not like the games you are comparing it to is a major reason for ppl choosing this game over these other cookie cutter lvl grinders. You are complaing about a base and fundamental aspect of eve.
There is no point is arguing over a fundamental aspect of the game because what you are actually arguing for at that point is to be playing a different game. This is easily accomplished without argument by going to your account management section and visiting a game store. ______________
Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2004.07.18 00:46:00 -
[20]
This is not a level based mmorpg. This is EVE it is not like the games you are comparing it too. The fact that it is not like the games you are comparing it to is a major reason for ppl choosing this game over these other cookie cutter lvl grinders. You are complaing about a base and fundamental aspect of eve.
There is no point is arguing over a fundamental aspect of the game because what you are actually arguing for at that point is to be playing a different game. This is easily accomplished without argument by going to your account management section and visiting a game store. ______________
Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
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Christopher Scott
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Posted - 2004.07.18 00:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Christopher Scott on 18/07/2004 00:59:50 Most tech1 frigates and cruisers are useful in both small-scale PvP and fleet battles if you know how to set them up properly. Even a Condor can fit MWD and scrambler, which is the basic tackling setup.
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Christopher Scott
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Posted - 2004.07.18 00:58:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Christopher Scott on 18/07/2004 00:59:50 Most tech1 frigates and cruisers are useful in both small-scale PvP and fleet battles if you know how to set them up properly. Even a Condor can fit MWD and scrambler, which is the basic tackling setup.
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Del Narveux
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Posted - 2004.07.18 01:24:00 -
[23]
Totally agreed that Eve is not a level game. Its not really a true RPG either, its very much a hybrid and CCP is (thankfully) realizing that and trying to balance out the ships a bit better. What they need to do with tech2 ships and equipment is make it more specialized but also give it some weaknesses, so its not just plain uberer. Thus, for example, an Interceptor would be very good at, well, intercepting ships and quick strike ops, but not so good for a straight-up fight with a well-fitted tech1 frigate. (the frigate, in turn, would not be as good at intercepting stuff) Along with this Id love to see a slight reduction in the cost of some of the stuff, right now its a little extreme for something that ideally should not be all that much better overall than a regular ship.
As far as modules, adding some penalties like with the lowslots would work to an extent, also upping the powergrid and CPU would help for the hard to balance mods. Personally I dont think the modules are as much of an issue now, but if/when higher tech levels show up just making each layer uberer than the one before wont work.
**Note, when I say 'uber' Im talking about all-around better with no drawbacks and/or unbalanced. For example, NPCs using ECCM and other anti-EW tactics would be good AI programming, but givnig them +99 sensor strength all bands or whatever the hell they have now is just uber NPCs. _________________ [SAK] And Proud Of It! aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Del Narveux
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Posted - 2004.07.18 01:24:00 -
[24]
Totally agreed that Eve is not a level game. Its not really a true RPG either, its very much a hybrid and CCP is (thankfully) realizing that and trying to balance out the ships a bit better. What they need to do with tech2 ships and equipment is make it more specialized but also give it some weaknesses, so its not just plain uberer. Thus, for example, an Interceptor would be very good at, well, intercepting ships and quick strike ops, but not so good for a straight-up fight with a well-fitted tech1 frigate. (the frigate, in turn, would not be as good at intercepting stuff) Along with this Id love to see a slight reduction in the cost of some of the stuff, right now its a little extreme for something that ideally should not be all that much better overall than a regular ship.
As far as modules, adding some penalties like with the lowslots would work to an extent, also upping the powergrid and CPU would help for the hard to balance mods. Personally I dont think the modules are as much of an issue now, but if/when higher tech levels show up just making each layer uberer than the one before wont work.
**Note, when I say 'uber' Im talking about all-around better with no drawbacks and/or unbalanced. For example, NPCs using ECCM and other anti-EW tactics would be good AI programming, but givnig them +99 sensor strength all bands or whatever the hell they have now is just uber NPCs. _________________ [SAK] And Proud Of It! aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Chith
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Posted - 2004.07.18 02:31:00 -
[25]
Frigates are absolutely huge in fleet fights, both T1 and T2. Cruisers not so much so, but they still do have a small niche. --- The Tarsis Shriners |
Chith
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Posted - 2004.07.18 02:31:00 -
[26]
Frigates are absolutely huge in fleet fights, both T1 and T2. Cruisers not so much so, but they still do have a small niche. --- The Tarsis Shriners |
Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.18 03:11:00 -
[27]
Before they nerfed cruise missile use on cruisers and frigates, those ships could actually make a difference in a battleship fight.
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.18 03:11:00 -
[28]
Before they nerfed cruise missile use on cruisers and frigates, those ships could actually make a difference in a battleship fight.
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Dallenn
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Posted - 2004.07.18 03:53:00 -
[29]
The beauty of Eve might very well be that it grants us what the OP opposes. But it balances out as nobody stays with T1 frigates but goes for the new, cool, improved T2 frigates.
We seek the Chosen ones / Roleplaying in Eve / Idea Lab favourites
I am Paratwa / Of the Ash Ock A Guardian of time / The firestorm / That purifies |
Dallenn
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Posted - 2004.07.18 03:53:00 -
[30]
The beauty of Eve might very well be that it grants us what the OP opposes. But it balances out as nobody stays with T1 frigates but goes for the new, cool, improved T2 frigates.
We seek the Chosen ones / Roleplaying in Eve / Idea Lab favourites
I am Paratwa / Of the Ash Ock A Guardian of time / The firestorm / That purifies |
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