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Bunyip
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Posted - 2008.12.25 20:56:00 -
[1]
Hello all,
This is my ninth, and final, proposal to CCP for the Reykjavik meeting. It deals with ship coloring, giving a way for players to feel their ship is more than a carbon-copy of everybody else's ships.
Current ships in the game have little you can do to differentiate them from other ships. Rigs gave us some way we could augment the ship to fit our play style, but still leaves a lot to be desired.
After doing a lot of work looking at the throughput required when a ship loads into the screen, I believe a simple painting scheme would allow us to make the ships our own without bottlenecking the servers. Some coding will need to be done to implement this, but it should be a relatively easy process.
The first step is to give a checkbox in the escape menu to allow people to turn this feature off if they desire, as it could weigh down blob warfare even more than it has already. Then, the ship models will have to be split up into two separate sections, and a colormap applied to each section as desired.
This colormap will consist of a pallette of colors which allows only 12 bits to cover each of the two sections of a ship and allowing the servers to deliver the information to the respective client interfaces (using 4 bits per RGB color). Each one of these sections could be colored the same or differently depending on the desires of the pilot, as listed below:
Given the depth this simple change would allow, it would give a large amount of individuality to the ships, and a simple interface to 'repaint' the ships. There could even be a charge in the game for repainting a ship.
This idea is still in it's early stages, but I think this is a good way to implement the color schemes without lagging the user computers too much. With the checkbox available on the menu, it would give the users the option to turn it off in high-load environments (such as Jita or blob warfare in 0.0).
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.12.25 21:21:00 -
[2]
I think there are far more useful things for CCP's bandwidth and database to have to deal with that this "fluff". --
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.12.25 21:54:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Treelox I think there are far more useful things for CCP's bandwidth and database to have to deal with that this "fluff".
More data which needs to be loaded as you enter grid, unless it's lazily loaded, in which case it's meaningless.
Don't like the idea. Not worth the effort at all.
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FunzzeR
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.25 22:00:00 -
[4]
Edited by: FunzzeR on 25/12/2008 22:00:37 Adding more more things for the server to load is probably not the best idea.
I can see this being easily exploited by creating lag traps (i.e. a 100-200 man fleet from alliance "A" with each ship colored and textured differently sitting on a gate. Allaince "B" jumps in and gets badly lagged out).
No, not unless such a scheme will have absolutely no effect on lag/database
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Abulurd Boniface
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Posted - 2008.12.26 13:33:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 26/12/2008 13:37:22
Originally by: LaVista Vista
More data which needs to be loaded as you enter grid, unless it's lazily loaded, in which case it's meaningless.
Don't like the idea. Not worth the effort at all.
I respectfully disagree with my representative.
Although on the surface the reduction of lag times is worthy and indeed a great necessity, it cannot be the be all and end all of a request for augmented functionality. The reductio would that the models for space frames in the New Eden universe could be faithfully represented by replacing the existing models with graphics containing only 10% of the polygons that make up any particular space frame in EVE. That would efficiently reduce lag by a major factor.
The downside would obviously be a severely reduced user experience because there would be very little in the way of eye candy left. Clearly, this is not the answer.
On bandwidth. The giant brains at CERN in Geneva are going to turn on the LHC in the coming months. This will generate data in the Peta byte range. Earlier, Tim Berners-Lee designed the World Wide Web, at CERN. To transport data in the range that the LHC is going to churn out the Grid was conceived. Seeing as www is ubiquitous technology it is not a gigantic leap of the imagination to assume that the Grid too will change the way people think about data transfer. CCP, as constructors of a MMOG are natural customers for this kind of technology. It bears to look beyond the immediate consequences of the current economic collapse and see a future where cheap, ubiquitous and truly massive data traffic is as common as Veldspar.
Imagine rather a future in which corporations will be able to research modifications to existing ship configurations. This will effectively change the properties by which any given space frame operates, with the concomitant changes to the physical appearance of the space frame, its new abilities and limitations, its changed construction requirements and the ability of the corporation responsible for its design to add their livery to it so as to differentiate it from other ships on the market. Obviously subject to the staggering cost implications inherent to any worthy project undertaken in New Eden.
This will enable operators in the game to have an impact on the shape and the feel of the universe and by imbuing it with their creativity and inspirations, give it greater depth, a richer feel, and establishing it as a living, breathing entity that evolves over time. This way EVE will have an opportunity to become more than the sum of its parts, it may gain culture which will set it aside from every other such enterprise focused on creating a revenue stream. It will become a preferred third place where ideas have the potential of being realized.
My professional experience in the software industry gives me an indication of practical limits to what can be so achieved. I certainly don't want to give the impression that I believe that 'everything should be possible', that goal is unrealistic and will lead to unwanted, sub optimal outcomes. Within the confines of what mere code can achieve however, features can be implemented that give the EVE resident greater freedom to steer their own destiny. Any universe that can strike the right balance between the freedoms of what a user can do in the atmosphere the designers envisioned, will create an environment people care passionately about. This leads to greater user retention, a robust revenue stream that enable the implementation of new technologies for the constructor and, for the user a world where goals can be achieved which, in that great, urbane fiction called 'real life' may not be as readily attainable.
Let us look beyond a mere limitation in datan data loads today and see a brighter future in the undiscovered country
Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO
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Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2008.12.26 14:27:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 26/12/2008 14:30:11 Since ships are techinically already being painted (the base textures are grey, and gallente ships get a blue-ish accent to certain parts of the hull in game), I don't think this is much work to implement.
Even back in 1997 you could dye every piece of clothing you wore in Ultima Online, and that was in the days of the 56k modem, so bandwidth is not an issue. ---
NEW MOVIE! |
ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:29:00 -
[7]
in all honesty for performance reasons i dont think ship painting wouldbe a good idea i can only see this going as far as a corporate/alliance logos on the side of a ship.
i will not support this for now as i think there are many other more important things that need to be done at the moment.
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 26/12/2008 14:30:11 Even back in 1997 you could dye every piece of clothing you wore in Ultima Online, and that was in the days of the 56k modem, so bandwidth is not an issue.
You didn't have often the best part of 1000 people on screen at same time though. Even if you have a little check box to hide the custom colours that data will still have to be sent to each client. In an multi-alliance sized megablob it'll add up fast.
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Drake Draconis
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/12/2008 18:58:24
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface <snip>
And your full of crap.
What the hell does CERN have to do with TCP/IP structure?
Nice rabbit trail.. but has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Painted ships are great.... but it will severely increase the latency on the server.
When you jump in... your client has to load up every single ship on the grid within visual range. Ever notice that slight pause when you warp in?
Duh!
Yes... it would be great... but the only thing I want to see is corporate logos and alliance logos on ships.
At least that's something that can be cached into the client.
Colorization of ships would put a heavy load on it.
I'm all for it... but this could be costly.
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Dasfry
Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 22:46:00 -
[10]
I think this is a great idea.
Nothing like getting destroyed by a pirate in a pink ship. Whom unknownly to you also has a cargo hold full of exotic dancers. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 22:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Painted ships are great.... but it will severely increase the latency on the server.
It would NOT increase server lag, as the data it would require would simply be no more then a few bits, basicly equal to a little bit of notes on players All the lag would be Client side.
And as stated earlier it would be something you can turn off.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
When you jump in... your client has to load up every single ship on the grid within visual range. Ever notice that slight pause when you warp in?
Duh!
That pause is your computer, not the server
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Yes... it would be great... but the only thing I want to see is corporate logos and alliance logos on ships. At least that's something that can be cached into the client. Colorization of ships would put a heavy load on it. I'm all for it... but this could be costly.
I'm also in favor of the logos. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 23:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: FunzzeR Edited by: FunzzeR on 25/12/2008 22:00:37 Adding more more things for the server to load is probably not the best idea.
I can see this being easily exploited by creating lag traps (i.e. a 100-200 man fleet from alliance "A" with each ship colored and textured differently sitting on a gate. Allaince "B" jumps in and gets badly lagged out).
No, not unless such a scheme will have absolutely no effect on lag/database
he already said u can turn it off.
Add'd what you suggesting is no different then any alliance "A" settting up a mix'd fleet of ships on fire. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.27 05:56:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 27/12/2008 05:57:47 Those who say no lag comes of this...
You obviously have no idea what your talking about.
Go to 0.0 space and see what happens when you jump into a 500 vs 500 fleet fight that "just takes place"
You people make me laugh...
Heck JITA is enough proof of this.
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.12.27 13:43:00 -
[14]
As long as it comes with a "turn dye off" option for the bandwidth challenged people then I could agree with this.
I am going to lol at all the pink with purple ships. We're likely going to see a lot of black as well, since it makes you like a ninja in space
Diary of a pod pilot |
Bunyip
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Those who say no lag comes of this...
You obviously have no idea what your talking about.
Will this idea create a little more lag? Yes, any idea will do that, whether on the server or the client computer. The time to render the ships is what creates the majority of the lag, as the servers don't have a bandwidth problem, especially with the new blade architecture.
This idea will add a total of 3 bytes of data to the downstream. The rendering time won't be affected, since you can turn this off for such events as jumping into Jita or blob warfare.
In that 500 vs 500 example, that will add a total of under 3 KB to the downstream. Using even a 56k connection, that will load in less than half a second.
[sarcasm]If you're worried about that, perhaps we should cut character names down to 8 characters, as that will save an estimated 24 bytes of downstream. Since every new model also adds to downstream for the ship IDs, we should only have one ship per faction too![/sarcasm]
This idea will allow for personalization without making a significant dent on the DB. I see no reason not to have this.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Fahtim Meidires
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bunyip I see no reason not to have this.
Even the fact that virtually nobody cares?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:39:00 -
[17]
Low-grade fluff. If it can be done without causing lag, go for it, but if it does then it's not worth it. - Lottery - Golem! Cruiser BPC Store |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre
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Posted - 2008.12.29 19:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bunyip
Originally by: Drake Draconis Those who say no lag comes of this...
You obviously have no idea what your talking about.
Will this idea create a little more lag? Yes, any idea will do that, whether on the server or the client computer. The time to render the ships is what creates the majority of the lag, as the servers don't have a bandwidth problem, especially with the new blade architecture.
This idea will add a total of 3 bytes of data to the downstream. The rendering time won't be affected, since you can turn this off for such events as jumping into Jita or blob warfare.
In that 500 vs 500 example, that will add a total of under 3 KB to the downstream. Using even a 56k connection, that will load in less than half a second.
[sarcasm]If you're worried about that, perhaps we should cut character names down to 8 characters, as that will save an estimated 24 bytes of downstream. Since every new model also adds to downstream for the ship IDs, we should only have one ship per faction too![/sarcasm]
This idea will allow for personalization without making a significant dent on the DB. I see no reason not to have this.
So that's 3 bytes per ship?
3 Bytes X 1000 = 3 Killobytes of data to take in... cache...and render.
I think you have your math messed up.... might wana try again.
That would hurt even a 56k as no dial up modem is truly 56k
You still have my support.. but it should be carefully evaluated as it could cause latency.
now if you had an option to shut it off where its just default skins... that would work for me. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Bunyip
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Posted - 2008.12.30 03:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Drake Draconis 3 Bytes X 1000 = 3 Killobytes of data to take in... cache...and render.
I think you have your math messed up.... might wana try again.
That would hurt even a 56k as no dial up modem is truly 56k
You still have my support.. but it should be carefully evaluated as it could cause latency.
now if you had an option to shut it off where its just default skins... that would work for me.
The option to shut off the rendering on the client computer was included in the original idea, and still holds. The 56 KB modem would deliver 7KB per second. Even with parity, it would still be less than half a second.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Jin Labarre
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Posted - 2008.12.30 06:48:00 -
[20]
Supported. Long overdue.
Options could be limited to only a few colors, or only to a few patches per ship, but there should still be options.
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.12.30 09:42:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 30/12/2008 09:41:46 option to turn it off for bigger fights
ships have 2 paints 1 domininating and 1 not look homeworld hwo you could difrent paint.
Add 2 variables for ship painting. And done.
Idiots with telling it create lag can stfu becouse thay dont know ****.
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Foulque
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Posted - 2008.12.30 11:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bunyip Hello all,
This is my ninth, and final, proposal to CCP
Thank God ________
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.30 14:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Even back in 1997 you could dye every piece of clothing you wore in Ultima Online, and that was in the days of the 56k modem, so bandwidth is not an issue.
Wow. Just, wow.
Without going into the "lag/no lag" argument, you're all missing one particular point. YOU don't know if it will cause lag or not! Sure, you can give your opinion, but in the end, without testing it, you can't say for certain how it will affect the Server.
I think it's a nice idea, in theory, however, I'm personally happy with the look of the ships themselves. I would much rather see the name of my ship on the side while flying, which (if lag is, in fact an issue) would be much easier on the whole system, as you'd only have to deal with font and colour choices.
Sorry, but I'm opting out on this one at this time.
We're Recruiting! |
LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 26/12/2008 14:30:11 Since ships are techinically already being painted (the base textures are grey, and gallente ships get a blue-ish accent to certain parts of the hull in game), I don't think this is much work to implement.
Even back in 1997 you could dye every piece of clothing you wore in Ultima Online, and that was in the days of the 56k modem, so bandwidth is not an issue.
While you are right that you could "argue" that ships are already being painted, there's a large difference.
The point being that loading more data from the database will cause a higher load per transaction. While you might argue that one extra field from a row is not a "huge" amount of data, it's STILL data which has to be queried from the database.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, I seem to remember that painting of ships was a feature back in beta, but was pulled out due to performance reasons?
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WhiteGhostBear
Furs of New Eden
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:39:00 -
[25]
Edited by: WhiteGhostBear on 30/12/2008 16:40:10
Originally by: LaVista Vista Also, if I'm not mistaken, I seem to remember that painting of ships was a feature back in beta, but was pulled out due to performance reasons?
Jita used to have performance issues, too. CCP's developers have learned a lot over the years. Their hardware and software both have improved dramatically. I'd love to spend a few weeks with those guys to pick up some of their tricks.
Honestly, a few extra bytes per player is miniscule amounts of data - we're already loading ship type, player location, name, security status, vector, module status (for animations of shield boosters, armor reppers), guns, etc. and Eve runs just fine. Honestly, given the size of some of the places I've been, I find it to be quite amazing.
I think that some of the people here are being a little over-reactive. The only downside that I see is that, right now, it would be possible to paint a cruiser to look like a HAC counterpart. But, if it can be turned off, then it isn't a problem.
An alternate solution would to have a majority of the ship's color be static, with the option to change the color of smaller parts of the ship. Some stripes or bands. Or, put your coporation's logo up there... but let's not get too crazy. (o;
Just so that the OP knows, people have been requesting this feature for a long time. I'm not sure that it will ever be implemented, but it would be nifty to have an official "Yes" or a "No, and here's why" response. I've found that the Eve community as a whole is very cool with a "No" response, as long as we get an explanation.
Edit: Forgot to check the Support button. (o;
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bunyip
Originally by: Drake Draconis 3 Bytes X 1000 = 3 Killobytes of data to take in... cache...and render.
I think you have your math messed up.... might wana try again.
That would hurt even a 56k as no dial up modem is truly 56k
You still have my support.. but it should be carefully evaluated as it could cause latency.
now if you had an option to shut it off where its just default skins... that would work for me.
The option to shut off the rendering on the client computer was included in the original idea, and still holds. The 56 KB modem would deliver 7KB per second. Even with parity, it would still be less than half a second.
There is a major difference between 100ms and 500ms Just play Halo for a bit and you'll catch on real quick. (Yes I know EVE Is not a FPS but the point is valid in any case for connectivity)
But regardless.... I'm still for this. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.30 19:31:00 -
[27]
Once the game is able to support large scale fights without having to zoom out a long distance so you see nothing and totally use the overview to get any performance at all then fine... throw a little cosmetic work onto the fire.
Otherwise, I would suggest taking a screenshot and use Photoshop or something to satisfy your cravings.
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shuckstar
Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2008.12.30 20:26:00 -
[28]
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.03.01 20:50:00 -
[29]
supported but i think players shouldnt be able to make their ship bright pink or whatever it would just be terrible
maybe hues of moss - rust - gunmetal etc etc
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