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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.29 11:39:00 -
[1]
I agree that T2 BPO's should be removed from game. Reasoning - meh what reasoning - I did not win in lottery and now some other guys have advantage over me !!!
That is not sarcastic post btw - I do actually think they are ebil. Not bcos they 'break the market' or whateever but bcos some guys who got their isk god-knows-how are just sitting on them and collecting even more isk. Who knows - they might be even be bought with exploited isk that is somehow laundered thru fake scams or fake 'market opportunities' or whatever. So as long as they remain in game I (and perhaps some others, but I can't speak for all) have doubts about how equal are our opportunities in this game. It is not something that would make me quit ofc, but it is something that is nagging in my head and is lowering my happy-o-meter towards EVE.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:24:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Tasko Pal
Maybe you should trying reasoning next time before you post. Here's my take. CCP did a good job of fixing the problem by creating invention and discontinuing the lottery. I simply don't see why I should care that there are t2 BPOs out there. It's far from the only way to make huge amounts of isk.
The reasons for and against that have been posted over the past year countless times. In the end it boils down to design decision. You can find good and valid points to argue either way.
My reason to post in this thread is mostly emotional, as I have been preaching for the removal of tech 2 bpo's for a while now. I do not like hard lines between haves and have nots in computer game that can't be overcome by hard work and dedication of gamer. T2 BPO's are that as only way of getting one is to hope that current owner is willing to sell you one - and nothing you can do can make the owner sell you one unless he want's to.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.30 11:16:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Vladimir Tinakin T2 BPOs are fine as-is.
Do they offer advantages over invented BPCs? Sure. You use less material and generally can build faster.
However, are T2 BPOs more economical than invented BPCs when you invent and produce several prints? No. You can only build X Medium Shield Booster IIs with a BPO per day, and you cannot increase that. However, if you use 3 invented BPCs, you can outproduce the BPO owner and thereby make more overall profit.
That's right: if you pick your item well (and don't invent small smartbomb IIs) you can make more isk than the mighty T2 BPO owners, for just a little extra effort.
T2 BPOs at this point are legacy items that are more useful for keeping a baseline supply up than they are for isk-printing presses. They don't unbalance the game any. Any perceived imbalance is just an illusion, or a very limited example.
I would like to point out that owning T2 BPO does not prevent you also inventing. In addition to being slightly more material efficent T2 BPO has one quite serious advantage over invention - there is no invention cost itself assosiated with it. Sure - as they are 'rare' people have pumped their price so high that the initial BPO payback time is measured in years so they are not exactly worth usually as invenstment-for-profit. It's a bit like .. well .. real estate ... they can go only higher - right - and you can sell one always afterwards ... err... right. Unless they get nuked or nerfed ofc.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.30 18:28:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
Capital loss is going to be a far bigger cost than invention materials if they were ever removed, by a huge factor.
We are on the same page overall as far as T2 BPO's go - you just think that nothing should be done about them and I think they should be removed or invention boosted enough to make em almost obsolete or some in game way of getting one without counting current owners will to sell you one (my personal order of preference is invention boost > t2 bpo removal > ability to get t2 bpo without having to buy from other player).
Now about capital loss. When bubble bursts someone ends up holding the bag. That is the nature of the market. One of the risks owning one. If there is so many other opportunities to invest capital in a lot better ways than T2 BPO as there is always pointed out then it would make more sense to go for that opportunity. Unless ofc it's just warm air and they are actually 'worth it'.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.02 09:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
Originally by: Dianalexia . Also, it will allow the producers to get close to the floor price that is used sometimes by T2 Ship BPO owners to pull people out of the market. There's absolutely no way for a ship inventor to compete with a ship BPO owner on that matter.
I don't think you understand. You aren't competing with T2 BPO owners at the moment, you are competing with other inventors. The price of any useful T2 item is determined by number of people inventing it, not with BPOs. You actually make more profit inventing many T2 items that DO have T2 BPOs vs those that do not, because of this perception that you can not compete with BPO owners. Producing closer to the 'floor price' means less profit for inventors, it's really that simple.
I'm quite confident that for some less demanded ships you would be competing actually against BPO owners. Ships like Moa, Raptor, Bustard and Fleet Command Battlecruisers for example (without running actual numbers on them atm). Ofc you can counter that by the fact that people building those currently are not getting returns in line with the cost of their BPO and/or that inventor should always invent and build the most profitable stuff (ie everyone should do Falcons instead of Moa's).
That would not negate the situation tho where in some markets you can't compete bcos someone got lucky on lottery before you started to even play and nothing you do in game other than convincing him to sell you his 'advantage' can change that.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.02 11:20:00 -
[6]
My personal favorite solution (from other threads discussing this) has been making 'base' BPC ME and PE levels modulate output BPC ME and PE levels (in addition to decryptors). Ofc that could not be 1:1 modulation as that would be over the top but good solution would be take T2 item ME and PE research times - find the correbonding ME or PE number on T1 print, round it up and make each full cykle make end BPC ME or PE level higher by one for each 'full cykle' on used T1 BPC.
That would mean that if your T2 BPO takes 1 month to get one 'tick' of ME then to get that 'tick' on invention BPC you would need to put the same amount of ME time on your T1 BPO you do copies from. Ofc that would do nothing to negate T2 BPO advantage in invention materials but it would go some way at least to lower the cap between them.
Currently decryptor prices are a bit too high for my tastes. It's ofc subjective, but with current prices there is no way those poor COSMOS items are worth building for what they were used before invention. It's understandable as their prices are determined by invention market.
Taking into account base item me and pe levels was even under consideration by CCP if I remeber from some old thread but was not implemented bcos of 'tehcnical issues'.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.03 09:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
I'm open to changes, but only ones that improve the actual game for someone, not ones that give warm fuzzy feelings for a very limited number of people at the expense of 1000x as many other people.
So am I. You seem just to assume that minority that would get the warm feeling are those who push for T2 BPO nerf while I assume that minority in EVE is T2 BPO owners. In the end ofc it does not matter what either of us will think. All that our rantings can cause is CCP taking a deeper look at T2 BPO's and they don't go by the forums when doing those decisions - they look at the hard data available and do their best to take the best cource they can see.
Removal of T2 BPO's would improve my actual game by removing that slightly irritating nagging feeling in my head. I'm not holding my breath over it tho. To be entirely honest there is other stuff in this game that irk me more than those BPO's - like current POS'es in combination of how sov. is handled and logoffski and bumping as valid combat tackiks to start a long list. List of stuff I like is ofc longer as I'm still around and playing the game.
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