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Deadly Jihadist
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Posted - 2008.12.28 04:46:00 -
[1]
I have flown missions off and on now for 18 months with the following races, Caldari, Gallente and Amarr I have noticed to my dismay that there is an over dependence on cap recharge's.
It is quite disappointing that with all the different modules we have available in the game it seems that 95% of the community is forced into using all their medium slots to cap rechargers. I have been looking at people's layouts for Amarr and Gallente Battleships that include 3 or 4 Cap Recharger II's. My question is, who is to blame for this behavior? Is it the player base or CCP?
I understand that ships behave differently in PVP than in PVE, but why such a huge difference? I would never fit 4 cap rechargers on my PVP ship, yet it almost seems impossible to fly missions without doing so.
I want to be able to utilize all of my skills and abilities to enjoy this game, not just design my ship layouts on outlasting the NPC's with an over abundance of capacity.
Do you have any thoughts on this, any way of changing how we view PVE and out use of our mid slots?
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Zo5o
Longcat is Long
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Posted - 2008.12.28 04:57:00 -
[2]
People are either too lazy to micromanage their tank/cap use, or too afraid to lose their ships to disconnects/lag, so they fit permatanks at the cost of mission completion time.
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Juelia Wolf
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Posted - 2008.12.28 05:00:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Juelia Wolf on 28/12/2008 05:00:54 Because PVE is predictable? And controllable? Its also a bit off.
Its predictable because you pick the mission, and from the title you know what rats your going to fight, how many, what kind, even where they are going to be sitting once you warp in.
Its controllable because you always pick when and what to fight. You know the names of the ships that do the most dmg and the ships that warp scramble etc etc.
Its a bit off because you can solo fly into an armada of enemy ships that are the same class as you, and come out on top.
If CCP were to make the setups similar then the combat would have to be similar too. Make missions totally random. Let rats remote rep each other. Give them an AI. Give them real tanks. Make the rats 10X stronger but give us 10X less of them to fight, and give us 10X the bounty.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2008.12.28 05:08:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Zo5o People are either too lazy to micromanage their tank/cap use, or too afraid to lose their ships to disconnects/lag, so they fit permatanks at the cost of mission completion time.
Both actually for me. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
cesar medina
La Familia's Safehouse La Familia.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 08:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Zo5o People are either too lazy to micromanage their tank/cap use, or too afraid to lose their ships to disconnects/lag, so they fit permatanks at the cost of mission completion time.
Both actually for me.
I love to permatank with kids running in and out all the time i dont want to worry about my ship being blown up while I change dipeirs or make a bottle
gallente for the afk'ers tank & kill
proud to be gallente I'm so sexy it feels so wrong to be me :P |
Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2008.12.28 11:27:00 -
[6]
It's not so much to do with the modules as the design of the missions, although I know quite alot of people especially marauder pilots who prefer cap booster setups to allow the use of afterburners/webs etc to increase mission running speed while forgoing looting ability due to the cargo hold being used for cap booster charges.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.28 12:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: cesar medina
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Zo5o People are either too lazy to micromanage their tank/cap use, or too afraid to lose their ships to disconnects/lag, so they fit permatanks at the cost of mission completion time.
Both actually for me.
I love to permatank with kids running in and out all the time i dont want to worry about my ship being blown up while I change dipeirs or make a bottle
gallente for the afk'ers tank & kill
proud to be gallente
ever tried fof drake/nh? here be the afk king
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2008.12.28 12:28:00 -
[8]
Strictly limiting the discussion to Amarr and Gallente ships like you mentioned in the first post, the reason is really quite simple: missions take time to run. How long does the typical PVP encounter last? 30 seconds? 1 minute? Less? Even for good mission runners, many of them take 30 minutes or longer, so capacitor becomes an issue there. Amarr battleships are all laser based. Gallente battleships are hybrid or drone based. Both use armor tanks, which is only possible as an active tank. Your capacitor has to last long enough to kill the enemy, and there's often a lot of the enemy.
Besides, what else do you put in the mid slots on an armor tanked ship? You can only have 1 afterburner. There are no +damage or +ROF modules that go there; those are all low slot modules. Yes, you can fit a sensor booster, or an Omni tracking link for drones, or a webber to slow down the frigates. The main thing you can fit there are modules to speed up your capacitor recharge, so people do it. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.28 12:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 12:32:18 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 12:32:01
Originally by: Gavin DeVries Strictly limiting the discussion to Amarr and Gallente ships like you mentioned in the first post, the reason is really quite simple: missions take time to run. How long does the typical PVP encounter last? 30 seconds? 1 minute? Less? Even for good mission runners, many of them take 30 minutes or longer, so capacitor becomes an issue there. Amarr battleships are all laser based. Gallente battleships are hybrid or drone based. Both use armor tanks, which is only possible as an active tank. Your capacitor has to last long enough to kill the enemy, and there's often a lot of the enemy.
Besides, what else do you put in the mid slots on an armor tanked ship? You can only have 1 afterburner. There are no +damage or +ROF modules that go there; those are all low slot modules. Yes, you can fit a sensor booster, or an Omni tracking link for drones, or a webber to slow down the frigates. The main thing you can fit there are modules to speed up your capacitor recharge, so people do it.
Exactly this. But like Helen said: cap injected marauders are good idea. Not only cap charges are cheap (i pay like 250k isk per full cargo on my golem - and can ditch em while looting) they free up a bit of slots + enable cap injection while you are being nossed (bloods). Tho like i said: its golem so i need all mids i can get.
On paladin if i had spare mids (lets say injector) id deffo put AB and... maybe one web - but nowadays after web nerf they are a bit pointless (only use i had for it was in blockade when i got perma TDed). Maybe TC's with optimal scripts to get more range from my pulses. but on the other hand CR t2 lets me have "perma" running setup which is good coz i can select targets, f1-f4, alt-tab and watch adult movies >< (hate ccp filter lol).
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Steve Celeste
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Posted - 2008.12.28 16:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Helen It's not so much to do with the modules as the design of the missions, although I know quite alot of people especially marauder pilots who prefer cap booster setups to allow the use of afterburners/webs etc to increase mission running speed while forgoing looting ability due to the cargo hold being used for cap booster charges.
During the mission you burn up the cap charges, which frees up cargo space. That space can then be filled with loot that drops during the mission.
Amazing concept, isn't it?
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Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2008.12.28 16:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Helen It's not so much to do with the modules as the design of the missions, although I know quite alot of people especially marauder pilots who prefer cap booster setups to allow the use of afterburners/webs etc to increase mission running speed while forgoing looting ability due to the cargo hold being used for cap booster charges.
During the mission you burn up the cap charges, which frees up cargo space. That space can then be filled with loot that drops during the mission.
Amazing concept, isn't it?
Well duh.
Your post seems to want to be sarcastic but that really doesn't work when I am not lambasting the idea of a cap booster setup for pve...
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Dahak2150
Chaos Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:16:00 -
[12]
Because they're cheap, not many other midslot mods useful for PVE, and all that you need sometimes, freeing up lowslots for damage mods or hardeners.
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Slayton Ford
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: cesar medina
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Zo5o People are either too lazy to micromanage their tank/cap use, or too afraid to lose their ships to disconnects/lag, so they fit permatanks at the cost of mission completion time.
Both actually for me.
I love to permatank with kids running in and out all the time i dont want to worry about my ship being blown up while I change dipeirs or make a bottle
gallente for the afk'ers tank & kill
proud to be gallente
ever tried fof drake/nh? here be the afk king
A perma running double repping Domi is still better. Grab room aggro, unleash heavies, go afk. Never have to reload. --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer... |
Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:17:00 -
[14]
Also they use very little fitting, and often you put them on when you don't have the CPU for a tracking computer or whatever.
............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Helen It's not so much to do with the modules as the design of the missions, although I know quite alot of people especially marauder pilots who prefer cap booster setups to allow the use of afterburners/webs etc to increase mission running speed while forgoing looting ability due to the cargo hold being used for cap booster charges.
During the mission you burn up the cap charges, which frees up cargo space. That space can then be filled with loot that drops during the mission.
Amazing concept, isn't it?
I don't think you need a marauder full of cap booster charges to run most level 4s
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
I don't think you need a marauder full of cap booster charges to run most level 4s
Given that some level 4 kill missions can be run with certain assault frigs, this isn't really saying much.
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MMXMMX
Caldari Resistance is Futile
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Posted - 2008.12.28 23:34:00 -
[17]
Edited by: MMXMMX on 28/12/2008 23:36:00
Originally by: Zo5o People are either too lazy to micromanage their tank/cap use, or too afraid to lose their ships to disconnects/lag, so they fit permatanks at the cost of mission completion time.
Yes you right permatank all the way after patch day and after downtime and memleaks the permatanks rock i lost to manny ships while my comp was rebooting after a crash
And to the OP yes you are right to man! In most cases you need to fil the rig slots with CCC rigs to if you want the permatanks Its cool to have rig slots you know but we stil need to fill them with cap recharging stuff lol and even then it S U C K S
The race with the most bad capacitor is Caldari lol the realy S U C K
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Iria Ahrens
Amarr 101st Space Marine Force The Leathernecks
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Posted - 2008.12.29 00:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Deadly Jihadist I have flown missions off and on now for 18 months with the following races, Caldari, Gallente and Amarr I have noticed to my dismay that there is an over dependence on cap recharge's.
It is quite disappointing that with all the different modules we have available in the game it seems that 95% of the community is forced into using all their medium slots to cap rechargers. I have been looking at people's layouts for Amarr and Gallente Battleships that include 3 or 4 Cap Recharger II's. My question is, who is to blame for this behavior? Is it the player base or CCP?
I blame the player. One cap battery is often worth 2 cap rechargers. No stacking penalty either. Another great thing about the cap battery, sometimes you can use a higher class battery if PG allows. For example, sticking a large on a cruiser. Since the cap recharges to full in a set amount of time--like shields--increasing the cap amount can often have a greater effect on cap stability. In general, one cap battery and one cap recharger are worth 4 cap rechargers. Esp with good cap skills. --
Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.12.29 01:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
ever tried fof drake/nh? here be the afk king
And what, put a rock on the f1 key? Sounds slow and cumbersome. Thank god for the domi warp in, grab aggro, approach gate, drop drones, ***** forums idea. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 184075
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.29 12:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Iria Ahrens
I blame the player. One cap battery is often worth 2 cap rechargers. No stacking penalty either. Another great thing about the cap battery, sometimes you can use a higher class battery if PG allows. For example, sticking a large on a cruiser. Since the cap recharges to full in a set amount of time--like shields--increasing the cap amount can often have a greater effect on cap stability. In general, one cap battery and one cap recharger are worth 4 cap rechargers. Esp with good cap skills.
At a glance, one cap battery is also often worth less than one cap recharger too. Especially when you consider the increased fitting requirements. For example, every battleship has more than 5000 cap (even the raven and scorp). A t2 large cap battery adds 700 (for 275 grid and 100 cpu!), which is less than 14% more cap. A t2 cap recharger reduces recharge rate by 20% (for 1 grid and 15 cpu!), which is actually 25% increase in recharge rate, no matter how big your cap is. For an extended mission fight, recharge rate is the only thing that matters. Hence, if you need more cap recharge from your med slots, cap rechargers or cap boosters are the only things you should be putting there. Most bs don't have the cargo space for enough cap boosters to last a level 4 mission. Thus, cap rechargers are the popular choice.
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Leandro Salazar
Better Dead Then Smeg
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zo5o People are either too lazy to micromanage their tank/cap use, or too afraid to lose their ships to disconnects/lag, so they fit permatanks at the cost of mission completion time.
Really need not say much more than this. Personally I use cap rechargers rarely, and never ever more than two. But I ganktank, so I don't need more. But most people are lazy and/or burdened with frequent RL intrusions, and in those cases ganktanks don't work very well. So much like Ravens, cap rechargers are hardly the best thing to use, but the most convenient one. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:20:00 -
[22]
I don't use cap rechargers, I use cap batteries.
The capacitor is the most important thing on your ship. If you run out of capacitor you are stuffed. Active tanks fail, guns stop firing, mwd shut down. Basically your stuffed.
And most ships are short of capacitor goodness especially for low level players. So it is little wonder that capacitor buffs are well used. There is nothing more frustrating than getting the out of mana capacitor juice message.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:22:00 -
[23]
I use them because I run every mission or every ratting session with 2 accounts on the same screen. Flipping back and forth to press F1 whenever something blows up is annoying enough without having to worry about whether the ship will run out of cap. I'd gank tank if I only used one account, but it is much more efficient to use a pair of passive tanked or permatanking ships. Of course, I do everything possible to get the number of cap modules down to the bare minimum. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Other Minion
181st Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:31:00 -
[24]
Someone mentioned that flying into an armada and winning messed up, i agree. I think there wold be less sustained fits if they changed the missions. Wouldnt u guys prefer to fight say 1 - 5 really tough rats that were worth say 5m isk each instead of fighting 50 rats worth 100k each?
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Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Other Minion Someone mentioned that flying into an armada and winning messed up, i agree. I think there wold be less sustained fits if they changed the missions. Wouldnt u guys prefer to fight say 1 - 5 really tough rats that were worth say 5m isk each instead of fighting 50 rats worth 100k each?
Goes without saying most people would prefer tougher, higher bounty rats but I don't think CCP have said anything lately about changing spawns.
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:46:00 -
[26]
Actually, it boils down to one thing -
Damage can be boosted directly by high and low slots. Mid slots can only indirectly boost damage through the use Target Painters, webs, or afterburners.
If you're not a shield tanker, and you already have your ab / web / target painter - what else are you going to put in there that will benefit your overall PVE build. _______________ Pwett Founder <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Pwett Actually, it boils down to one thing -
Damage can be boosted directly by high and low slots. Mid slots can only indirectly boost damage through the use Target Painters, webs, or afterburners.
If you're not a shield tanker, and you already have your ab / web / target painter - what else are you going to put in there that will benefit your overall PVE build.
Sensor boosters and tracking computers! Aha!
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:48:00 -
[28]
If you're targeting frigs you're doing something wrong
I'll give you a tracking computer, but 9 times out of 10, that can be better filled with a web :) _______________ Pwett Founder <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Leandro Salazar
Better Dead Then Smeg
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Posted - 2008.12.30 08:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pwett
If you're targeting frigs you're doing something wrong
I'll give you a tracking computer, but 9 times out of 10, that can be better filled with a web :)
Actually, if you are not targetting frigs, you are doing something wrong .
In most missions, targetting frigs in the first few seconds and instapopping them with guns (or hitting them with missiles for real damage as they MWD towards you) can be a huge timesaver. And a SeBo also shaves off a bunch of seconds off every first cruiser sized and even BS sized ship. Over the course of a mission like angel extra, it certainly accumulates to a minute or three. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2008.12.30 13:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Pwett
If you're targeting frigs you're doing something wrong
I'll give you a tracking computer, but 9 times out of 10, that can be better filled with a web :)
Actually, if you are not targetting frigs, you are doing something wrong .
In most missions, targetting frigs in the first few seconds and instapopping them with guns (or hitting them with missiles for real damage as they MWD towards you) can be a huge timesaver. And a SeBo also shaves off a bunch of seconds off every first cruiser sized and even BS sized ship. Over the course of a mission like angel extra, it certainly accumulates to a minute or three.
Once again Leandro tells it as it is. With the Nightmare I hardly use drones to kill frigs instead target all frigs in lockable distance and make them vanish. Then cruisers and finish off the BC/BS.
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