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Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
26
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Posted - 2012.04.14 21:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
During my time in the corporation Dark Shadow Industries (who managed a very healthy balance between PvP and Industry, ie building capital ships), one of our directors created a corp exclusive website that managed capital ship building projects. Essentially, it worked out how much ore of varying types was required to build a certain ship, and you could add the ore you mined to that project and the required ore would then go down. It would keep track of what each person had contributed to the project so that when the ship was sold your contribution could be calculated very easily and the ISK could be paid to you with little to no hassle.
Having since run a corporation and tried to do a similar thing without the website, I can tell you itGÇÖs pretty much impossible (Well... its possible, just incredibly time consuming). Keeping track of who mined what is difficult.
So, I propose the following two changes.
1)That Orcas and Rorquals have have logs, where you can see the total amounts of ore put into the orca by players (but please, make it so you can repackage or sell them without having to wait 3 weeks). This will mean that at the end of mining operations Orca pilots will be able to see what each person has contributed that day/op and pay them accordingly.
2)That a new optional corp tab (called Industrial Projects) be created that allows corpies to add ore they have mined to a project. To start a project, you would require a blueprint (which would calculate the required ore based on the project starters refine skills and the station standings of the station that the project was created in, as well as the blueprint stats). What everyone had added to the project would be visible and you could see how close the corp was to having the ore required to build the item. The ore (when added to the project) would be added to a corp hangar in the corp office (a corp office or a POS would be a requirement to creating an industrial project).
Please throw your support or criticisms my way.
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Davon Mandra'thin
Solar Horizon Directive
4
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Posted - 2012.04.15 09:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Supported (With emphasis).
Paying people per (amount of time) for mining is daft, and this seems like a pretty good solution. The corporation I run does, or has done, a great deal of mining and manufacturing. Trying to mine as a team is difficult to balance and largely a waste of time.
As I see it there are currently a few ways of running mining ops; all of which are inadequate. - Paying miners per amount of time mining (more skilled players, people who are afk less, and with better ships are penalized) - Creating everyone ships and not handing them out until everyone's ship is created. ( People who contribute less benefit more) - Dividing up how much everyone mined and paying them for the ore (currently immensely time consuming and difficult)
Corp members largely contribute to corp projects out of charity in the current available systems. It would be nice to be able to measure their input and actually pay them like a real spaceship corporation would. |
Ezekiel Delacroix
Solar Horizon Directive
3
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Posted - 2012.04.15 09:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1
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Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2105
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Posted - 2012.04.15 11:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
My suggestion would be to think of very lightweight ways that the client could help support 3rd-party tools that would implement the features you want. The simpler and easier it is for CCP to implement, and the more possible uses it supports, then the more likely it is you will get something implemented that you can use.
For example -- and this is just off the top of my head:
* Client logs of stuff you move, and stuff that is moved into your ship. You could then process the log file to generate the report you want.
* Drag and drop integration with the in-game browser, so someone could drag something into a CHA, then drag it from there onto your web app, and the app would get told "person X dragged Y from location Z" or something. The Sarcasm is Strong with Me GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó Blog |
Rimase
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
22
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Posted - 2012.04.15 13:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
The way I see things in corporation is motivated by all members contribute the corporation wallet in order to claim credit from their Shares value; or have corporate contracts set-up.
Projects are like a partitioned agenda, and when a corporation has a solid agenda comes about tasks for members. By using a system of Contracts, a type of Project will detail to the management the contribution compositions required to fulfil the Project. Management of Projects then have to set-up contracts, calculate payment and watch them be fulfilled within {selected time}. Not only that, is encourage cohesion even further within a corporation. This is great!
- Public corporate Project Contracts would be shared contracts where the most contributory capsuleer(s) receive highest partition of the reward.
- Private corporate Project Contracts would be assigned to one or multiple corporation members, shared yet limited to those best-suited.
Types of corporation Project Contracts: - Diplomatic (measured by corporate standings earned of target-NPCorp to target-value) - Production (a blueprint bill of materials. auto-builds upon completing contract.) - Harvestry (selected values of selected materials to be met) - Skirmish (a recurrent contract. selected value of enemy warring corporation targets destroyed.) (Can only be set-up if corp is at war!) - Trade (items from/to corporate hanger sold/bought and credited/debited into corporate wallet)
With the introduction of new contracts coming in the future, why not have some more corporate-focused contracts? (Why CCP no improve Shareholding?): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=71032#post71032 |
Ruzyho
Solar Horizon Directive
2
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Posted - 2012.04.15 15:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Support +1 |
Kaine Janeway
Solar Horizon Directive
2
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Posted - 2012.04.15 15:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Support +1 |
Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
35
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Posted - 2012.04.15 15:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
I supose this system could just as easily be implemented as a contracts system as the alternative. It would certainly keep the corp window from getting too cluttered.
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DitchDigger
Hibi Proletariat
2
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Posted - 2012.04.16 17:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree with the guy that posted about 3rd party tools. A simple API to track who put what ore into the Orca, or into a corporate division would solve a lot of these problems and with very minimal effort from CCP |
Teshania
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.19 20:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
+1 But
I would prefer it see it as more of a type of contract system, Where we go Need XYZ of minerals, The corp members click a 'donate to project button' and it subtracts form the total starting XYZ and shows what is still outstanding. Then you can View the log of who donated what to the project ^^
That should be a simplistic system |
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Davon Mandra'thin
Solar Horizon Directive
14
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Posted - 2012.04.19 21:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Teshania wrote:+1 But I would prefer it see it as more of a type of contract system, Where we go Need XYZ of minerals, The corp members click a 'donate to project button' and it subtracts form the total starting XYZ and shows what is still outstanding. Then you can View the log of who donated what to the project ^^ That should be a simplistic system
Agreed. Contract system makes much more sence. |
Skitterball
Deafening Silence Syndiate
0
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Posted - 2012.04.19 22:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Teshania wrote:+1 But I would prefer it see it as more of a type of contract system, Where we go Need XYZ of minerals, The corp members click a 'donate to project button' and it subtracts form the total starting XYZ and shows what is still outstanding. Then you can View the log of who donated what to the project ^^ That should be a simplistic system
This would make mining for projects completely easier and reduce the amount of headaches us industrialists get ><
+1 |
Ayla Hanaya
Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
2
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Posted - 2012.04.21 01:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Supported,
Having done precisely this in the past using google docs, I can vouch for it being time consuming sitting there with a calculator tabbing up what each corp member has mined in an op, having a 3rd party tool that is supplied by an API would make this so much easier. I don't do this anymore, having come to my senses and realizing mining other players is a more rewarding profession, but this is still a good idea for those of us who havent come to our senses about the dullness of indy work yet. ~ 10.058 ~ A Mittani-less CSM7 does not represent the players. Bring on CSM8. ~~~CSM8: VOTE MITTENS FOR CSM CHAIR~~~ NEVER STOP POASTING
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Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
57
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Posted - 2012.05.01 18:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Unashamed bump. Also, original post updated. |
Blastfizzle
Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation G00DFELLAS
59
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Posted - 2012.05.02 09:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
+1 |
Uronksur Suth
Viziam Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2012.05.06 22:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
More tools for corp mining like this would be good, definitely. |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
138
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Posted - 2012.05.07 01:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
head up there is already 3rd party constructs that have achieved this ---- Razor alliance may actually have something for this for their use
SO this could be a job for 3rd party developers The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
85
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Posted - 2012.05.07 10:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:head up there is already 3rd party constructs that have achieved this ---- Razor alliance may actually have something for this for their use
Yea, I know.
Arduemont wrote:one of our directors created a corp exclusive website that managed capital ship building projects. Essentially, it worked out how much ore of varying types was required to build a certain ship, and you could add the ore you mined to that project and the required ore would then go down. It would keep track of what each person had contributed to the project so that when the ship was sold your contribution could be calculated very easily and the ISK could be paid to you with little to no hassle.
The idea is to make it available to everyone. If a 3rd part app can be made, it cant be that difficult for CCP to implement. |
fantazmythe
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.05.08 04:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
i also +1 the contract idea, would make things far simpler. and would make it easier for beginner miners, they could see a contract up and try to fill parts of it as they could and get payed for it. |
Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
90
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Posted - 2012.05.09 11:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
fantazmythe wrote:i also +1 the contract idea, would make things far simpler. and would make it easier for beginner miners, they could see a contract up and try to fill parts of it as they could and get payed for it.
This does bring up a new problem. With the system as it has been used when created by players, getting payed has relied on trust. If you create a contract that calculates people's contribution to a project, you would expect the mechanism for their getting payed to be inbuilt in the contract, but doing that could end up being a huge programing problem. I'll have a think about whether there is any really simple ways of doing that. Hopefully now that CCP have their new system for estimating mod/ship costs, this will be more feasible. |
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fantazmythe
Galactica Armada Fidelas Constans
8
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Posted - 2012.05.10 14:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:fantazmythe wrote:i also +1 the contract idea, would make things far simpler. and would make it easier for beginner miners, they could see a contract up and try to fill parts of it as they could and get payed for it. This does bring up a new problem. With the system as it has been used when created by players, getting payed has relied on trust. If you create a contract that calculates people's contribution to a project, you would expect the mechanism for their getting payed to be inbuilt in the contract, but doing that could end up being a huge programing problem. I'll have a think about whether there is any really simple ways of doing that. Hopefully now that CCP have their new system for estimating mod/ship costs, this will be more feasible.
there is a simple way to alleviate that. players are not forced to accept the contract, they could just see what the vaule of the ore they are mining is and decide for themselves (whether they wish to accept the current price)
I.E make the contract show what the unit price is set at for each ore =)
then its far less coding =P |
Rimase
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
27
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Posted - 2012.05.11 09:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
This thread is awesome. (Why CCP no improve Shareholding?): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=71032#post71032 |
Natyrius
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.12 01:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Supported.
Get it done. |
Davon Mandra'thin
Solar Horizon Directive
35
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alternatively these contracts could work by commission.
You could put up a contact that would be "Megathron By Commission", which would have a price on it. You could set a percentage that the corp would keep when the item sold and then when people added the ore it could even show how much ISK ore contributors will get out of the Mega when it has sold.
That way the contact would have to be accepted by the person wanting the mega, and ore would have to be added to it in another way. The people looking to purchase the mega could even be able to see how close the Mega is to being done when they decide whether they want to accept the contract. This feels like its a difficult idea to convey in words over the forums. If I had the time or the enthusiasm, I should probably make example UI pictures to post up. |
Rimase
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
27
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Posted - 2012.05.22 12:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:You could put up a contact that would be "Megathron By Commission", which would have a price on it. You could set a percentage that the corp would keep when the item sold and then when people added the ore it could even show how much ISK ore contributors will get out of the Mega when it has sold.
That way the contact would have to be accepted by the person wanting the mega, and ore would have to be added to it in another way. The people looking to purchase the mega could even be able to see how close the Mega is to being done when they decide whether they want to accept the contract. Cool variation of contracting. Another bonus of this could be that players working on Commission do not require a ranking corporate member to set up a business contract because anyone would be capable of setting up a Commission contract on behalf of their corporation. This alone would regulate corporate business activity with added bonus of tax-free.
(CONTRIBUTION)- Personal Contracts: (what we have already).
- Business Contracts: (issued by a qualifying corp member)
- Commission Contracts: (issued by anyone within corp, tax-free)
Confliction: Tax-free Commissions are subject to fidelity of a sub-sequent setup of a Business Contract which are not tax-free. Where there's an already-existing Commission contract in the likeness of the Business contract you wish to create, this Commission contract may be adopted into a Business contract at any time. (Why CCP no improve Shareholding?): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=71032#post71032 |
Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
110
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Posted - 2012.05.26 12:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:Alternatively these contracts could work by commission.
You could put up a contact that would be "Megathron By Commission", which would have a price on it. You could set a percentage that the corp would keep when the item sold and then when people added the ore it could even show how much ISK ore contributors will get out of the Mega when it has sold.
That way the contact would have to be accepted by the person wanting the mega, and ore would have to be added to it in another way. The people looking to purchase the mega could even be able to see how close the Mega is to being done when they decide whether they want to accept the contract. This feels like its a difficult idea to convey in words over the forums. If I had the time or the enthusiasm, I should probably make example UI pictures to post up.
I like this idea alot. Im not sure Im going to update the OP yet to include it, just because it is a complicated idea to describe and I think it turns a much simpler system into a potential UI and programming nightmare. But I may update the OP at some point to include this, I just need to think it through more thoroughly. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
110
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Posted - 2012.05.26 23:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Your idea is sound but the suggested implementation is built upon a broken system. What we need is a complete rewrite of the industry system. A new industry system that is designed from ground up that has player cooperation at a corp level at its core is what is needed. CCP needs to learn to not be afraid to throw away code and just redo things. |
Davon Mandra'thin
Solar Horizon Directive
45
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Posted - 2012.05.27 00:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
You mean like the new Unified Inventory? That went down well, after all.
Don't get me wrong, I agree whole heartedly. I just think that, because of all the recent whining and bitching, CCP wont be in a rush to rebuild a system from the ground up again (Even though I think they should). |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
110
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Posted - 2012.05.27 00:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:You mean like the new Unified Inventory? That went down well, after all.
Don't get me wrong, I agree whole heartedly. I just think that, because of all the recent whining and bitching, CCP wont be in a rush to rebuild a system from the ground up again (Even though I think they should).
That wasn't a rewrite of the inventory system just a new UI. What I mean is take all the crappy code and ideas in the current industry system (*cough* Blueprints *cough*) and start over. I don't want a face lift or bandaid as it will turn out like the Unified Inventory.
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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
110
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Posted - 2012.05.27 00:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Davon Mandra'thin wrote:You mean like the new Unified Inventory? That went down well, after all.
Don't get me wrong, I agree whole heartedly. I just think that, because of all the recent whining and bitching, CCP wont be in a rush to rebuild a system from the ground up again (Even though I think they should).
That wasn't a rewrite of the inventory system just a new UI. What I mean is take all the crappy code and ideas in the current industry system (*cough* Blueprints *cough*) throw it out and start over. I don't want a face lift or bandaid as it will turn out like the Unified Inventory. |
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