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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.01.02 05:55:00 -
[1]
Greetings ppl, plz read the whole post before commenting/trolling
Of course you've all heard of the announcement that t3 is on its way in the next expansion. While its an exciting announcement, I fear that it will all be a bit over-rated if CCP doesnt make it a viable ship to use in pvp.
An example I'll use is marauders, on paper this ship is awesome for pvp. It boasts an awesome tank, ewar bonus's and a dbl damage bonus. This gives it four free highs for RR and neuts, a gang of these things would absolutely own. It has a low sensor strength so it needs eccm and falcon support, other than that weakness it makes for an awesome pvp ship.
So why is it never seen?
Cost of course. The things cost almost as much as a carrier, so only the super-rich or super foolish would use one in pvp. Hence why they are only effective as mission boats (which I think CCP intended, and have I have no problem with this).
Now we see the implementation of T3. I cant help thinking that the same situation will result. These ships will entail awesome specialisation, or excellent all-round options: making for a great pvp hull. Performance-wise (once the role is selected) they probly wont be much better than their specialised t2 counterparts, but the gain is of course the broad range of options available to choose.
This is a similar case with mother ships and command ships, each has a slightly less effective cheaper version (carriers and bc's) and are hence much less cost effective.
So the point..
If T3 has the same fold cost increase as t1 to t2 (ie t1 bs is roughly 90-100mill, t2 is around 600-700mill so 6-7 times as much), no-one will use them.
Sure we may see the odd one here and there, but I for one dont want a new ship type that only caters for hard core mision runners or the super-rich EVE history
t2 precisions |
King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.02 06:16:00 -
[2]
That is something that concerns me as well. CS's are pretty common amoung the pirates I run with but it's border line on being too expensive to use for it. If t3 BC's break 200-250M per hull, I just don't see them being practical. I also hope it is applied to all ships or most anyways. I've always wanted a t2 hurricane, maybe I'll get a t3. I am also concerned about skills required. Ideally t3 ships would require the same skills to use as their straight t1 counterparts since it's my understanding that they are only intended to be customized versions. But this isn't going to happen I think. CCP likes to make god aweful skill training times for everything.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.01.02 06:20:00 -
[3]
Just like everything else expect its price to be wildly inflated for the first few weeks it's in-game. After that supply and demand will take over of course, so the deciding factor is going to be access to the new materials that will be required to make T3.
T2 Battleships aren't seen in PvP because they're not usually as good at it as their T1 counterparts. Marauder is easy to scan down and jam, and Black Ops lacks tank and firepower for a BS. You could cut the price of Marauders and Black Ops in half and you'd probably not see more than a mild increase in their appearance on killboards.
Since T3 isn't simply an improved version of T2 the way T2 is an improved version of T1, I wouldn't want to speculate at this point on just how expensive they'll be.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.01.02 06:58:00 -
[4]
so many don't know factors, make even speculation almost impossible.
other than at first they will be expensive ships
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2009.01.02 07:02:00 -
[5]
I really doubt the T2-T3 step would be as drastic as the T1-T2 step is.
My guess, is T3 is on par with T2 with little options to specialize/surprise your enemy. Instead of seeing a Vagabond on scan and knowing exactly what you are going to get on grid, the T3 will be a nice surprise
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Airtight Alibi
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Posted - 2009.01.02 07:17:00 -
[6]
t3 will def screw up the game...
ccp has a hard enough time balancing the ships as is... never mind lots of configurable variables.
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McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.02 07:32:00 -
[7]
i just cant wait until the scanner becomes a question mark whenever u see one of the T3 hulls coming in. Is it nano, gank, tank, wt knows... great for some people I suppose that will be in them asap.
Although people will argue it's just like an ishtar, u dont know if he's nano, or shield tanked, armor tanked... But no it's really not, ccp allows players to surprise us with off the wall setups but the majority of the time, u see rapier u know what u need to be ready for, just like the other pilot sees u and has a pretty good idea what he's going to do or try to do when he lands on grid.
Which is the reason I dont like the idea of modular ships, never really have specifically because no one is ever going to know what they're fighting it could be anything. So will PVP in eve end, of course not. But will it become Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock? maybe.... just my thoughts.
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2009.01.02 07:53:00 -
[8]
There will be new skillz even more training time and it will cost more isk. Its all about CCP there real life isk..
www.garia.net |
Pac SubCom
A.W.M
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Posted - 2009.01.02 08:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 02/01/2009 08:10:33
Originally by: McFly no one is ever going to know what they're fighting it could be anything.
Their appearance will give away capabilities because you can see which modules are used. The time of the screenshot is coming. Eyes on gates is what you need. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Cannibalistics
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Posted - 2009.01.02 09:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 02/01/2009 08:10:33
Originally by: McFly no one is ever going to know what they're fighting it could be anything.
Their appearance will give away capabilities because you can see which modules are used. The time of the screenshot is coming. Eyes on gates is what you need.
More alts needed, who would have thought it. It seems everything CCP do is geared to make everyone need another character..
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JoeT
Amarr Short Attention Span Paisti Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.02 09:15:00 -
[11]
back to the days of T2 for super rich?
The current marauders are in-deed usefully for missions, and usefully in PVP, though a cost is pretty high. I don't see an issue with T3 coming out costing alot. The killing of one will be oh so much better (remeber ZOMG I KILLED a T2 FITTED MEGA!!1!)
The prices will adjust with people being able to use them and as demand goes up. The qestion is, who long will it take for the 1st T3 item to show up? - We are anonymous. We Are legion. |
King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.02 09:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: King Rothgar on 02/01/2009 09:24:24 Many people prey on anything that just happens to be in the same system as them. I don't change the fittings on my ships just to kill one guy. I have a general setup on each ship and kill anything of the same size or smaller with it. The addition of t3 ships and having them be customizable brings nothing new to the risk of pvp. PvP as is not rock/paper/scissors in eve as much as some would like it to be. It isn't a fps either, it's really somewhere in between.
For me, if I were to get a t3 hurricane and could do anything I damn well pleased, I'd keep the current ship bonuses to weapons but I'd give it 8 turret hardpoints and no missile hardpoints. I'd also trade some targeting range for more sensor resolution if allowed. That's about it really. If I had some resistances I could add I'd throw it into explosive and kinetic to balance them out a little but it wouldn't be anything extreme.
End result of this would basically be a t2 hurricane with exp/kin bonus instead of em/therm and more focus on autocannons. It's not terribly imaginative or unexpected. I suspect nearly all pvp players who use a hurricane would do more or less the same thing. This theoretical t3 hurricane would be used and countered exactly the same way it is now with the t1 version. Nothing changed except it got a little meaner and probably a lot more expensive.
Edit: on a side note, I know a few people who use maruaders for piracy. Some would use carriers but the sentries like to pop fighters so that's a bit of a problem.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.02 09:20:00 -
[13]
What JoeT said. Understand the mechanics of supply and demand. If noone uses T3 ships, prices will go down. Or not. First, let's see what t3 is able to...
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2009.01.02 09:45:00 -
[14]
Well for one hope hey are stupid expensive, and give i nice edge in combat. why? cause I USED to spend all my isk on nice shiny 400 mill fitted intys (pre speed nerf) .. now? all the frigs can catch each other no matter how much isk you spend (figurativly)
so, after the nano nerf, i have billions of isk with nothing to spend it on.
i want that 'edge' back in combat. and yes, i should have one if im willing to risk billions of isk, just to be 30% better than a t2 ship with similar role.
its not like 3 random dudes in 5 million isk cruisers couldnt gank a a T3 Thorax.
or one inty, and a t1 cruiser killing a 400mill T3 frigate... _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
ZephyrLexx
Caldari Earth Federation Space Forces
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Posted - 2009.01.02 10:24:00 -
[15]
Edited by: ZephyrLexx on 02/01/2009 10:25:55
Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 02/01/2009 08:10:33
Originally by: McFly no one is ever going to know what they're fighting it could be anything.
Their appearance will give away capabilities because you can see which modules are used. The time of the screenshot is coming. Eyes on gates is what you need.
Arent their going to be hundreds if not thousands of different modules? i'm sure someone will know every possible configuration and be able to guage their enemy just by looking at the ship... oh wait
Originally by: Andreya
i want that 'edge' back in combat. and yes, i should have one if im willing to risk billions of isk, just to be 30% better than a t2 ship with similar role.
why dont you get faction and officer modules and field Navy ships or something then
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ZephyrLexx
Caldari Earth Federation Space Forces
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Posted - 2009.01.02 10:26:00 -
[16]
Edited by: ZephyrLexx on 02/01/2009 10:25:48 dobble post
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V1kingos
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Posted - 2009.01.02 11:04:00 -
[17]
People will buy the T3 ships if they find them usefull and can afford the price. It's quite easy.
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Rivur'Tam
the united
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Posted - 2009.01.02 11:04:00 -
[18]
the price will depend on how many of these worm holes they are , if you get them in every system like cosmic anmol's they should be cheap, its how they seed the bpo's that will affect the price.
as for t2 battleships not being used in pvp, i have over 50 kills in my kronos and about 15 in my sin. .. ... |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.02 12:11:00 -
[19]
Marauders aren't used in PvP because of cost-benefit ratio, not just cost. The role performed by a Marauder is quite effectively performed by a battleship - A Golem isn't _much_ better than a Raven.
T3 will be expensive - from day one, there'll be 300k people wanting it. Prices will stabilise over a few months, but initally it'll be murderous. -- 249km locking? |
Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.01.02 12:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: BiggestT Greetings ppl, plz read the whole post before commenting/trolling
Of course you've all heard of the announcement that t3 is on its way in the next expansion. While its an exciting announcement, I fear that it will all be a bit over-rated if CCP doesnt make it a viable ship to use in pvp.
An example I'll use is marauders, on paper this ship is awesome for pvp. It boasts an awesome tank, ewar bonus's and a dbl damage bonus. This gives it four free highs for RR and neuts, a gang of these things would absolutely own. It has a low sensor strength so it needs eccm and falcon support, other than that weakness it makes for an awesome pvp ship.
So why is it never seen?
Cost of course. The things cost almost as much as a carrier, so only the super-rich or super foolish would use one in pvp. Hence why they are only effective as mission boats (which I think CCP intended, and have I have no problem with this).
Now we see the implementation of T3. I cant help thinking that the same situation will result. These ships will entail awesome specialisation, or excellent all-round options: making for a great pvp hull. Performance-wise (once the role is selected) they probly wont be much better than their specialised t2 counterparts, but the gain is of course the broad range of options available to choose.
This is a similar case with mother ships and command ships, each has a slightly less effective cheaper version (carriers and bc's) and are hence much less cost effective.
So the point..
If T3 has the same fold cost increase as t1 to t2 (ie t1 bs is roughly 90-100mill, t2 is around 600-700mill so 6-7 times as much), no-one will use them.
Sure we may see the odd one here and there, but I for one dont want a new ship type that only caters for hard core mision runners or the super-rich
Interceptors (the first t2 shipline that came out back in the day) at their launch were around ~40 million a pop and stayed there for quite a while. Expect to pay through your nose if you want a t3 ship at launch. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
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Xephys
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Posted - 2009.01.02 14:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Airtight Alibi t3 will def screw up the game...
ccp has a hard enough time balancing the ships as is... never mind lots of configurable variables.
This is something I'm worried about. I actually hope T3 will be expensive as hell.
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Draeca
Tharri and Co.
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Posted - 2009.01.02 14:14:00 -
[22]
I don't care about price as long as I can make a stealthy pocket carrier frig. Something like ishkur on steroids with a covert ops cloak! ___
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.01.02 14:50:00 -
[23]
Stick to T2 if you can't afford it?
Nah I kid, I kid. T3 will be grossly overpriced to start off with then eventually mellow down. They'll be pricey, sure, but you're paying for that with the versatility and options you'll gain to fit out the ships. Arguably, it comes down to the whole 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.' saying, which i'm fine with. (Which is why I don't fly anything above a T2 Cruiser.) It also depends on ease of access to the T3 materials, we'll see more as more information comes available to us.
But, in all fairness, it isn't hard to grind up for a Marauder in PVP, it's more of the fact a regular old battleship is easier to train for, and arguably equally as effective, without the weak sensor strength.
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.01.02 15:08:00 -
[24]
I hope they are expensive, really expensive and effective. People need to grow some balls and realise that the adrenaline rush of pixels in danger is the best part of eve.
T2 is trash cheap now so we need another level.
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el caido
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Posted - 2009.01.02 15:20:00 -
[25]
Considering this is an entirely speculative argument, the points made are mostly moot. However, my biggest 'concern' (if you can even call it that) is that the T3 will be less of a similar-to-T2 invention-costs problem as a similar-to-'faction' drones-cost problem. Less like the value of a Marauder and moreso like the value of Augmented Ogres.
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Andre Dubois
University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.01.02 15:43:00 -
[26]
My concern would be what would these new T3 components will be built from. They keep adding ships and mods that need moon minerals to build but no new moons, yes they did come out with alchemy to help produce more of the rare minerals but it only goes so far.
With the vast numbers of T3 mods and hulls they plan on coming out with, i can see it putting a strain on the component supply and the prices going up on not only T3 but T2 as well.
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n0thing
Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2009.01.02 16:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Artemis Rose I really doubt the T2-T3 step would be as drastic as the T1-T2 step is.
My guess, is T3 is on par with T2 with little options to specialize/surprise your enemy. Instead of seeing a Vagabond on scan and knowing exactly what you are going to get on grid, the T3 will be a nice surprise
Doubt T3 ships will be out same time as T3 mods. Change cant go in one step, you cant login one day and see each t2 thing has t3 equivalent. ---
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Kurull Skullsplitter
Minmatar Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.02 16:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: BiggestT An example I'll use is marauders, on paper this ship is awesome for pvp. It boasts an awesome tank, ewar bonus's and a dbl damage bonus. This gives it four free highs for RR and neuts, a gang of these things would absolutely own. It has a low sensor strength so it needs eccm and falcon support, other than that weakness it makes for an awesome pvp ship.
The Marauder class has 7 high slots 4 of which go to turret or launcher. Three not four are available for other stuff. |
Groknor
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Posted - 2009.01.02 16:27:00 -
[29]
Tech 3 ships will cost a vast amount of isk. The ships that show up on the market window will be made from some items that you cannot buy (from what I read), shoving the price up past t2 ships and upwards of named.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2009.01.02 17:13:00 -
[30]
So, what skills are you training in preparation for T3? Understanding of course that this is all very speculative. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
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