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Sakari Orisi
The Dark Space Initiative Enclave.
18
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Posted - 2012.04.24 06:24:00 -
[151] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Quote:In case you didn't know only subcapital ship that can solo C4 and C5 sites is Tengu. That was sort of the point. You said "feel free to post a Legion that can solo C4's/C5's." I said "feel free to post anything other than a Tengu that can solo C4's/C5's," making the point that this isn't the Legion's problem, it's just that the Tengu is godly at PVE. And now you just agreed with me, so I guess I'm right. Unless you're seriously trying to insinuate that lasers are bad because Legions can't solo C4's/C5's while carriers can.
Just to prove a point, capstable fit (under sleeper neuts), enough tank; enough dps and acceptable range, as well as a web to shoot down sleeper frigs on its own:
EDIT: and its not any more expensive than a solo C4-5 tengu would be
[Legion, WH]
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Stasis Webifier II 10MN Afterburner II
Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Tracking Enhancer II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 07:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
Sakari Orisi wrote:Roosterton wrote:Quote:In case you didn't know only subcapital ship that can solo C4 and C5 sites is Tengu. That was sort of the point. You said "feel free to post a Legion that can solo C4's/C5's." I said "feel free to post anything other than a Tengu that can solo C4's/C5's," making the point that this isn't the Legion's problem, it's just that the Tengu is godly at PVE. And now you just agreed with me, so I guess I'm right. Unless you're seriously trying to insinuate that lasers are bad because Legions can't solo C4's/C5's while carriers can. Just to prove a point, capstable fit (under sleeper neuts), enough tank; enough dps and acceptable range, as well as a web to shoot down sleeper frigs on its own: EDIT: and its not any more expensive than a solo C4-5 tengu would be [Legion, WH] Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Stasis Webifier II 10MN Afterburner II Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Tracking Enhancer II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Not enougn tank for C4s. Quite expensive loss in C5s.
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Sakari Orisi
The Dark Space Initiative Enclave.
18
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Posted - 2012.04.24 07:21:00 -
[153] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Sakari Orisi wrote:Roosterton wrote:Quote:In case you didn't know only subcapital ship that can solo C4 and C5 sites is Tengu. That was sort of the point. You said "feel free to post a Legion that can solo C4's/C5's." I said "feel free to post anything other than a Tengu that can solo C4's/C5's," making the point that this isn't the Legion's problem, it's just that the Tengu is godly at PVE. And now you just agreed with me, so I guess I'm right. Unless you're seriously trying to insinuate that lasers are bad because Legions can't solo C4's/C5's while carriers can. Just to prove a point, capstable fit (under sleeper neuts), enough tank; enough dps and acceptable range, as well as a web to shoot down sleeper frigs on its own: EDIT: and its not any more expensive than a solo C4-5 tengu would be [Legion, WH] Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Stasis Webifier II 10MN Afterburner II Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Tracking Enhancer II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Not enough tank for C4s. Quite expensive loss in C5s.
I'll tell the sleepers that next time I kill them
(There's ofcourse no one size fits it all fit, if you need more tank for C4s, fit an extra hardener instead of the tracking enhancer and remove a cap recharger for a tracking computer, as there's less neuting in C4s) |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2012.04.24 07:26:00 -
[154] - Quote
Sakari Orisi wrote:I'll tell the sleepers that next time I kill them
(There's ofcourse no one size fits it all fit, if you need more tank for C4s, fit an extra hardener instead of the tracking enhancer and remove a cap recharger for a tracking computer, as there's less neuting in C4s)
C4 requires ~700 dps cap stable omnitank for cruisers while moving. That Legion fit has ~560. |
Sakari Orisi
The Dark Space Initiative Enclave.
18
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Posted - 2012.04.24 07:33:00 -
[155] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Sakari Orisi wrote:I'll tell the sleepers that next time I kill them
(There's ofcourse no one size fits it all fit, if you need more tank for C4s, fit an extra hardener instead of the tracking enhancer and remove a cap recharger for a tracking computer, as there's less neuting in C4s) C4 requires ~700 dps cap stable omnitank for cruisers while moving. That Legion fit has ~560.
I'm not sure how you count, but the fit I posted has 600dps omni tank and if you add an extra T2 hardener instead of the tracking enhancer it has 696 dps cap stable omni tank (close enough ? :>) |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 07:38:00 -
[156] - Quote
Sakari Orisi wrote:I'm not sure how you count, but the fit I posted has 600dps omni tank and if you add an extra T2 hardener instead of the tracking enhancer it has 696 dps cap stable omni tank (close enough ? :>)
Maybe it can do C4s after all. But it would be slower than Tengu.
Still nowhere near enough for C5s. |
Sakari Orisi
The Dark Space Initiative Enclave.
18
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Posted - 2012.04.24 07:40:00 -
[157] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Sakari Orisi wrote:I'm not sure how you count, but the fit I posted has 600dps omni tank and if you add an extra T2 hardener instead of the tracking enhancer it has 696 dps cap stable omni tank (close enough ? :>) Maybe it can do C4s after all. But it would be slower than Tengu. Still nowhere near enough for C5s.
I do them regularly, so I'm afraid you're wrong on that one too. Yes, admittedly, its a bit slower than a tengu though, but it beats training for months in missiles when you have 0 missile SP and 10mil gunnery SP. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2012.04.24 07:45:00 -
[158] - Quote
Sakari Orisi wrote:I do them regularly, so I'm afraid you're wrong on that one too. Yes, admittedly, its a bit slower than a tengu though, but it beats training for months in missiles when you have 0 missile SP and 10mil gunnery SP.
C5s? Ok, now I want to see a video before I believe that. |
Sakari Orisi
The Dark Space Initiative Enclave.
18
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Posted - 2012.04.24 07:53:00 -
[159] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Sakari Orisi wrote:I do them regularly, so I'm afraid you're wrong on that one too. Yes, admittedly, its a bit slower than a tengu though, but it beats training for months in missiles when you have 0 missile SP and 10mil gunnery SP. C5s? Ok, now I want to see a video before I believe that.
Can be provided, not sure on the timeframe, work and all. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 08:04:00 -
[160] - Quote
Sakari Orisi wrote:Can be provided, not sure on the timeframe, work and all.
Remember that it has to be done solo. So no RR or energy transfer allowed. |
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Aedron
Aedron Holding.
2
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Posted - 2012.04.24 11:48:00 -
[161] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Tachyons deserve honorable mention, though. There's really nothing else quite like them.
Tachyon's also hold the current longest snipe range (using aurora L) if i'm not mistaken. I think an apoc can easily shoot out of max. targeting range (with sensor boosters & scripts etc..)
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Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
65
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Posted - 2012.04.24 12:11:00 -
[162] - Quote
Aedron wrote:Aamrr wrote:Tachyons deserve honorable mention, though. There's really nothing else quite like them. Tachyon's also hold the current longest snipe range (using aurora L) if i'm not mistaken. I think an apoc can easily shoot out of max. targeting range (with sensor boosters & scripts etc..)
Not true. 425mm rails outrange them, both in optimal and in falloff. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
429
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 12:18:00 -
[163] - Quote
Aedron wrote:Aamrr wrote:Tachyons deserve honorable mention, though. There's really nothing else quite like them. Tachyon's also hold the current longest snipe range (using aurora L) if i'm not mistaken. I think an apoc can easily shoot out of max. targeting range (with sensor boosters & scripts etc..)
no, not range. dps... afaik? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
illirdor
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
6
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:26:00 -
[164] - Quote
ohh yea plz buff lasers... they are sooo bad... plz ccp make it happen !! XD
Come to Amamake... The universal answer to everything... |
Edward Longshanx
Pain Arising Dustm3n
1
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Posted - 2012.05.09 01:28:00 -
[165] - Quote
So, three weeks later, I come back, read through the pages of posts...
And no one has addressed the issue.
EM/Therm damage sucks for at least 50% of content. Other races don't have this problem, or have it to a lesser extent.
I don't care if they nerf lasers in some other fashion to balance it out, but lasers need to access other damage somehow.
I don't care about Legion vs. Tengu, or if Scorch is awesome stat-wise, or what is happening on the projectile front.
Damage. Type. Sucks. |
Kumi Mashiba
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.05.09 01:39:00 -
[166] - Quote
Edward Longshanx wrote: Damage. Type. Sucks.
100% agree. It's absolute bullshit that I can't break the tank on a single rep wolf/jag in a 200dps (scorch) retribution. 90% / 80% innate em/thermal resists is bullshit and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it except avoid wolf/jags like the plague. |
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
13
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Posted - 2012.05.09 03:06:00 -
[167] - Quote
Kumi Mashiba wrote:Edward Longshanx wrote: Damage. Type. Sucks.
100% agree. It's absolute bullshit that I can't break the tank on a single rep wolf/jag in a 200dps (scorch) retribution. 90% / 80% innate em/thermal resists is bullshit and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it except avoid wolf/jags like the plague.
My god... a world based on rock/paper/scissors and rock is complaining that paper beats rock...
Who would have thought?
Anyways...
This argument about lasers is comical, mostly because you are looking at a weapon system alone, not the ship that they are fitted to. The discussion about Zealot vs Vaga is probably closest to hitting the nail on the head since it begins to look at the hulls that use the respective weapon systems instead of the weapon systems themselves.
Yes, lasers have problems with cap and tracking. They, however, have excellent optimal and very fast ammo selection. Lasers have the best damage projection at range. For most hull classes lasers can project higher dps at farther ranges (which if you are able to dictate range is a significant advantage...), which helps to mitigate some of its downfalls (nuets, tracking, ect.). So if you want to continue to focus on single 1v1 fights between certain hulls (yes I know that simple linear systems are easier for people to think of...) then by all means, but I can't really remember the last time I was involved in a true 1v1 fight.
Besides, if we were to go on the popularity of ship types in pvp to base weapon system performance, missiles have every one beat, Tengu blobs are the FOTM.
I do however have a feeling that lasers at the cap level are about to make a reappearance in significant quantities with the recent changes to dreads... Revelation anyone? |
Goran Konjich
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.05.09 07:53:00 -
[168] - Quote
i want lazors on Oracle for PvE ... is this ok? i know tank is terrybad .... but i guess it would be lot of fun to shoot 8 lazors from 100km going 1500m/s ... what do you think ?
thx "a diplomat with 425mm briefcase II" |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
36
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Posted - 2012.05.09 09:00:00 -
[169] - Quote
Edward Longshanx wrote:EM/Therm damage sucks for at least 50% of content. Other races don't have this problem, or have it to a lesser extent.
I don't care if they nerf lasers in some other fashion to balance it out, but lasers need to access other damage somehow.
Christ man, you want CCP to nerf lasers so that you can stop deliberately reducing your effectiveness in some carebear ****? You waited three weeks for more posters to mew that lasers aren't so good for some rats when one week will give you a Minmatar BS and large projectiles? When all the high-end rats in the game have omni resists!? When you could spend one hour flying to a region where lasers are super-effective?
Get. Out.
---
And since I'm talking in this thread, I'll try to contribute something to the subject, even though I am terrible at this game:
In 1v1, in small stuff, laser users feel inferior because they run into same-size Minmatar boats that can close range and do superior brawling DPS. Laser users could do more damage if they could keep range - but they can't, so they don't, so they die. If they're significantly better tanked and if they have a bit of time before enemy backup arrives, then they could still win with less DPS -- but maybe it's more typical for them to compare DPS numbers in EFT and then exchange their narrow chance at victory for not-enough-additional-DPS and an even faster death.
Outside of 1v1, lasers have the rock advantage - which is not a reference to tanking, but to positioning. It's easier for an entire gang of laser boats to apply max DPS to a target than for an entire gang of projectile boats to do this.
Rather than whine about lasers, laser users who feel inferior for the reasons above should get into a slicer, or get into a T2 boat, or get into bigger boats, or get into gangs and reflect on how easy it is for them to sit back and burn down whoever their buddies get tackle on. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:02:00 -
[170] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:Kumi Mashiba wrote:Edward Longshanx wrote: Damage. Type. Sucks.
100% agree. It's absolute bullshit that I can't break the tank on a single rep wolf/jag in a 200dps (scorch) retribution. 90% / 80% innate em/thermal resists is bullshit and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it except avoid wolf/jags like the plague. My god... a world based on rock/paper/scissors and rock is complaining that paper beats rock... Who would have thought?
Not entirely true. The racial T1 armor resists are not balanced. Minmatar have 60%em vs 50%em standard,which translates in 10/(100-50)= 20% less em damage taken. Amarr have 20%exp resist vs 10%exp standard, which results in 10/(100-10)=11% less exp damage taken. Caldari receive a 15% bonus to thermal damage and the Gallente 13% bonus to kinetic damage.
Since Amarr suffer from the Minmatar bonus the most (20%) and are the least able to vary weapon damage away from EM, this problem is the most obvious for them.
This discussion has been done to death many times already.
Thing is: 1. pulses suck, unless scorch is involved. 2. The bigger the boat and fleet, the better lasers become. The smaller the boad and engagement the more they suck.
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TomyLobo
Posthuman Society Enclave.
2
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Posted - 2012.05.09 19:25:00 -
[171] - Quote
Lazors will be cool if CCP created only thermal damage dealing ammo. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
166
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Posted - 2012.05.09 19:33:00 -
[172] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote: Thing is: 1. pulses suck, unless scorch is involved. 2. The bigger the boat and fleet, the better lasers become. The smaller the boad and engagement the more they suck.
TBH I think this is fine as things are. Scorch may be the thing that makes pulses good, but it doesn't change the fact that PULSES ARE GOOD, and having one race excel at small gang combat while another performs better in fleet fights is perfectly reasonable, imo.
TomyLobo wrote:Lazors will be cool if CCP created only thermal damage dealing ammo. I'm actually not against this, as I will admit that the armor resist breakdown does make a couple of the minmatar ships perform too well against amarr ships (am I the only one who notices that the vast majority of anti-minmatar threads/posts are made by people who like to fly amarr?) |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2012.05.09 19:36:00 -
[173] - Quote
Lazors are only good for showing off.
Like that Bhaalgorn at Jita 4-4 undock during Burn Jita event. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
433
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Posted - 2012.05.09 23:59:00 -
[174] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote: Thing is: 1. pulses suck, unless scorch is involved. 2. The bigger the boat and fleet, the better lasers become. The smaller the boad and engagement the more they suck.
Slicers are totally not the best navy faction frig or anything... |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2012.05.10 00:46:00 -
[175] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Slicers are totally not the best navy faction frig or anything...
- Paper thin tank - Bad tracking with Scorch - Limited damage types - Slow
No wonder it gets destroyed so often. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
38
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Posted - 2012.05.10 01:41:00 -
[176] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Slicers are totally not the best navy faction frig or anything...
I suppose a star seems brighter in the sky when it lacks neighbors, when nobody readily compares it with T2 AFs, T2 inties, or pirate frigs. (Which is too bad for the Crusader, really.)
But if you know someone's going to bring a Slicer out, don't feel too reluctant to undock in any other navy frig; all of them can field EWAR. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.05.10 06:48:00 -
[177] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Lunkwill Khashour wrote: Thing is: 1. pulses suck, unless scorch is involved. 2. The bigger the boat and fleet, the better lasers become. The smaller the boad and engagement the more they suck.
Slicers are totally not the best navy faction frig or anything...
Slicers are very good, their power comes from range bonused Scorch and the very un-Amarr ability of being able to dictate range. They're also about the only small ship in the game that can actually fit medium pulses in non-lol setups. They're good because they're an exception to the rule. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
159
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Posted - 2012.05.10 13:15:00 -
[178] - Quote
slightly off topic but is there a reference guide anywhere that compares all the types of crystals? On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
36
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Posted - 2012.05.10 21:57:00 -
[179] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:Slicers are very good, their power comes from range bonused Scorch and the very un-Amarr ability of being able to dictate range. They're also about the only small ship in the game that can actually fit medium pulses in non-lol setups. They're good because they're an exception to the rule.
How's it good if it can't break Dagan's tank? |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
389
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Posted - 2012.05.10 22:01:00 -
[180] - Quote
Quote:100% agree. It's absolute bullshit that I can't break the tank on a single rep wolf/jag in a 200dps (scorch) retribution. 90% / 80% innate em/thermal resists is bullshit and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it except avoid wolf/jags like the plague.
Base Wolf armor thermal resist is 67.5%, not 80%. Jag's shield EM resists are 60/75 for therm/EM
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