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Hardened Heart
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:27:00 -
[1]
Since no one really knows, I'm interested in hearing some other players wild speculations on what T3 ships will do to fleet combat.
When I say fleet I mean a total of 50 to 60 ships, including tacklers, scouts, ewar, and that annoying guy blaring bad techno over vent each time he talks that every alliance seems to have. In short, the whole fleet.
Also, I am generally referring to 0.0 combat. Feel free to speculate on whatever kind of combat tickles your pickle, but that's just what I am most familiar with.
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Let's take it in two stages of development: First when T3 ships are still a rarity due to production shortages or expense. Two to three per fleet max.
Second, further down the road when T3 ships are more of a normal part of fleet warfare. 10-25% of the fleet being in T3 ships is not uncommon and a smaller T3 gang is easily formed.
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In the first instance, I think we'll see very few t3 ships on the playing field. Eve's current methods of calling targets and FCing will make them gigantic targets just because of their versatility.
In the second, I think it maybe a step in the right direction away from blob mentality or a giant leap towards it. Uncertainty in the enemy about a fleet's specialty could lend some balls to competent, T3 heavy FCs, encouraging them to commit to engaging larger forces. It could also make anyone with fewer T3 assets in fleet twice as nervous about engaging. Are those five T3 ships DPS juggernauts that should be primaried ASAP? Or are they pure tank, hoping you'll do just that while the rest of fleet tears you apart?
And yes, I know... T3, Oh noes, teh sky iz falling!
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:31:00 -
[2]
Depends on the the price and performance of T3 ships. They could be widely used like HACs/Recons or rarely used like Marauders/Black ops. Gotta wait till they hit the test server. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Hardened Heart
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Depends on the the price and performance of T3 ships. They could be widely used like HACs/Recons or rarely used like Marauders/Black ops. Gotta wait till they hit the test server.
Well... yes..
But that's why it's (wild?) speculation.
I don't have any inside information, just curious about other people's opinions and thoughts.
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masternerdguy
Gallente Gate Control Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:36:00 -
[4]
i think that it will be unbalanced since the capabilities of the ships will likely not be known by the FCs, unlike current eve ships.
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mcnuggetlol
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: masternerdguy i think that it will be unbalanced since the capabilities of the ships will likely not be known by the FCs, unlike current eve ships.
Why don't you make another thread about it
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: masternerdguy i think that it will be unbalanced since the capabilities of the ships will likely not be known by the FCs, unlike current eve ships.
IDIOT
Just in case you didn't know...
Karrade-Confirming all pirate babies come from me Surfin's PlunderBunny-I always knew you were a woman Karrade-I am a man of many talents.
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clone 1
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: masternerdguy i think that it will be unbalanced since the capabilities of the ships will likely not be known by the FCs, unlike current eve ships.
Poor, Poor, Nathan. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box |
Hardened Heart
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: masternerdguy i think that it will be unbalanced since the capabilities of the ships will likely not be known by the FCs, unlike current eve ships.
GTFO TROLL!!!
j/k, I couldn't resist...
Seriously, though... perhaps 'unbalanced' is the wrong word you're looking for. Since everyone will have equal opportunity to T3 ships, it would be pretty extreme if they unbalanced combat.
The way I see them, their versatility will be their main asset. Psychological warfare more so then strength in any one area. I think a lot of people will gnash their teeth and cry when they find out that they don't replace HACs and BSs for DPS or Recons for ewar. Not knowing exactly what they're set up to do makes them useful, while not over shadowing existing ships. And of course, I do see exceptions to this rule.
My case and point: It's already working on you.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:50:00 -
[9]
Someone mentioned that t3 ships are all cruiser sized. They are likely to cost 300+ mil and have tanking ability of a HAC - at best. That means they should always be primary to inflict the most isk damage to the opposite side
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masternerdguy
Gallente Gate Control Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hardened Heart
Originally by: masternerdguy i think that it will be unbalanced since the capabilities of the ships will likely not be known by the FCs, unlike current eve ships.
GTFO TROLL!!!
j/k, I couldn't resist...
Seriously, though... perhaps 'unbalanced' is the wrong word you're looking for. Since everyone will have equal opportunity to T3 ships, it would be pretty extreme if they unbalanced combat.
The way I see them, their versatility will be their main asset. Psychological warfare more so then strength in any one area. I think a lot of people will gnash their teeth and cry when they find out that they don't replace HACs and BSs for DPS or Recons for ewar. Not knowing exactly what they're set up to do makes them useful, while not over shadowing existing ships. And of course, I do see exceptions to this rule.
My case and point: It's already working on you.
1. im not scared of em, i think they are a bad idea. 2. i bet that we'll see battleship sized ones within a year. 3. equal opporotunity, hmm. The issue i have with that is that the bpos are gonna cost way too much, a noob wont be able to get em. also we know bob will be the first to have one...in fact bob will have a fleet of em
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Gnomes Rock
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: masternerdguy
1. im not scared of em, i think they are a bad idea. 2. i bet that we'll see battleship sized ones within a year. 3. equal opporotunity, hmm. The issue i have with that is that the bpos are gonna cost way too much, a noob wont be able to get em. also we know bob will be the first to have one...in fact bob will have a fleet of em
Holy ****, you're in an alliance?
I always just assumed you were some attention seeking alt, perpetually trolling.
All this time.. every post.. you were being serious?
Well ****. |
masternerdguy
Gallente Gate Control Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gnomes Rock
Originally by: masternerdguy
1. im not scared of em, i think they are a bad idea. 2. i bet that we'll see battleship sized ones within a year. 3. equal opporotunity, hmm. The issue i have with that is that the bpos are gonna cost way too much, a noob wont be able to get em. also we know bob will be the first to have one...in fact bob will have a fleet of em
Holy ****, you're in an alliance?
I always just assumed you were some attention seeking alt, perpetually trolling.
All this time.. every post.. you were being serious?
Well ****.
YES! DONT YOU SEE?!
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: masternerdguy The issue i have with that is that the bpos are gonna cost way too much, a noob wont be able to get em.
Don't worry. A noob will probably have about as much chance to get a T3 BPO as one of those officer mod BPOs you were talking about in that other whine thread… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Hardened Heart
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: masternerdguy
1. im not scared of em, i think they are a bad idea. 2. i bet that we'll see battleship sized ones within a year. 3. equal opporotunity, hmm. The issue i have with that is that the bpos are gonna cost way too much, a noob wont be able to get em. also we know bob will be the first to have one...in fact bob will have a fleet of em
Okay. Assuming I agree with what you're saying (and I don't [at all]), two weeks later the next two [insert your choice of positive adjective here] alliance will have their own fleet. Two weeks after that, everyone else will too.
Like life, Eve isn't fair. The entity with the largest resources gets to use them to batter everyone else.
Originally by: Ephemeron
Someone mentioned that t3 ships are all cruiser sized. They are likely to cost 300+ mil and have tanking ability of a HAC - at best. That means they should always be primary to inflict the most isk damage to the opposite side.
If they're more than 300mil (fully fitted) I can see that. I'm hoping they're in the lower end of the 200-300mil range so they can serve as useful members of the fleet and not 'too pricey to risk' like marauders are. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:10:00 -
[15]
*sigh*
I really doubt that T3 will have much of an impact on the game over all, particularly in the beginning. T3 ships will be fairly useless for fleets, as they won't have the capacities for DPS/tank that BS do, nor the range etc.
Because CCP is determined to not 'obsolete' existing ships by introducing new ships that are simply more powerful than existing designs, the new T3 ships will probably offer little in the way of more performance in a smaller package than what we already see from T1 and T2 ships. In short, they're probably going to suck. There will be no real reason to choose them over simply choosing a larger, heavier ship to do the same job for less ISK. A perfect example are command ships vs. a BS, or a HAC vs. a tier 2 BC.
The speed and agility and lock time improvements of the smaller ships don't outweigh the lack of static HP, capacitor and overall tank and firepower of the larger ships. Basically there is no *good reason* to choose the smaller T2 ships over something one size larger, fully insurable, and the same or less cost. Other than style points, but I won't get into that. |
Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:15:00 -
[16]
Based on the trickle down nerfing we have been getting fo 6 months, it should bring us back to where were ... six months ago.
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Gnomes Rock
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:18:00 -
[17]
Oh, also gunna say that CCP are going to prenerf t3 horribly to prevent any possible backlash from smart players creating the best ship types.
So you're not going to have to worry about t3 ships for a good year, if other CCP precedents are going to be followed in this case. |
Hardened Heart
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The speed and agility and lock time improvements of the smaller ships don't outweigh the lack of static HP, capacitor and overall tank and firepower of the larger ships. Basically there is no *good reason* to choose the smaller T2 ships over something one size larger, fully insurable, and the same or less cost. Other than style points, but I won't get into that.
I think you're overlooking their capabilities for Ewar a little. I don't see them out doing recons, but they also won't be insta-primaried like a Falcon will, which has it's advantages. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hardened Heart
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The speed and agility and lock time improvements of the smaller ships don't outweigh the lack of static HP, capacitor and overall tank and firepower of the larger ships. Basically there is no *good reason* to choose the smaller T2 ships over something one size larger, fully insurable, and the same or less cost. Other than style points, but I won't get into that.
I think you're overlooking their capabilities for Ewar a little. I don't see them out doing recons, but they also won't be insta-primaried like a Falcon will, which has it's advantages.
Sure they'll be primaried. Plus you're assuming that they'll all have worthwhile EW abilities, which I seriously doubt. And even if they do, why use a T3 ship over a cheaper and proven T2 ship like a Falcon? For that matter, why even bother with a Falcon when you can use a Scorpion in fleet?
Unless CCP makes T3 ships *very powerful* and *very high performance* to justify the larger investment in time and ISK and skillpoints, they will be a total waste of time. And I know they won't, so yes, they'll be a waste of time and effort. Similar to how Marauders are currently. Or Black Ops. Etc. etc. etc.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:39:00 -
[20]
Well, like most of you, I haven't read or seen enough on this to really make a deep opinion on this..
In the first instance, you are going to see alot of "testing" fits, lolfits, maybe one or two effective builds, with the PG/CPU modules being the most prominent for min/max gank fits... likely so much so that quick visual identification will determine right away if its gank or tank.
In the second instance will see more truly effective builds as people mess around more in the true attempts at finding something unique or better or more personal. Likely fleets will have one, possibly even two pilots designated in fleet who determine what the enemy T3 ships are capable of.
I think we'll actually see alot of T3 not in the combat sector, but in the industrial sector. Salvage ships built to optimize fits, or Mining ships that can operate as sort of "stealth" miners, etc. or exploration fits that can actually explore and tank.
Problems I see though is, first off, something already mentioned: T3 ships are going to be primaried exculsively initially so their usefulness, however great, would be removed from the field quickly. Another problem I see is, really, what aspect of gameplay would they be of any value outside of being a trophy? Aside from maybe a few industrial applications, any and every combat task is covered by existing ships.
They only way these will work is that a.) They aren't expensive, b.) They aren't skill intensive, c.) They are insurable, and d.) they have a real role, or are good "midpoint" ships.. skillwise.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.10 23:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Orakkus Well, like most of you, I haven't read or seen enough on this to really make a deep opinion on this..
In the first instance, you are going to see alot of "testing" fits, lolfits, maybe one or two effective builds, with the PG/CPU modules being the most prominent for min/max gank fits... likely so much so that quick visual identification will determine right away if its gank or tank.
In the second instance will see more truly effective builds as people mess around more in the true attempts at finding something unique or better or more personal. Likely fleets will have one, possibly even two pilots designated in fleet who determine what the enemy T3 ships are capable of.
I think we'll actually see alot of T3 not in the combat sector, but in the industrial sector. Salvage ships built to optimize fits, or Mining ships that can operate as sort of "stealth" miners, etc. or exploration fits that can actually explore and tank.
Problems I see though is, first off, something already mentioned: T3 ships are going to be primaried exculsively initially so their usefulness, however great, would be removed from the field quickly. Another problem I see is, really, what aspect of gameplay would they be of any value outside of being a trophy? Aside from maybe a few industrial applications, any and every combat task is covered by existing ships.
They only way these will work is that a.) They aren't expensive, b.) They aren't skill intensive, c.) They are insurable, and d.) they have a real role, or are good "midpoint" ships.. skillwise.
The above being said, I hope that they are 1) expensive. 2) require a fairly high amount of skillpoints to gain an entry level T3 ship. 3) are completely uninsurable. And 4) are able to be built to very very high performance levels DPS/Cap/Tank wise. I want to see T3 as what are commonly referred to as 'solo pwnmobiles'. Something for end game players to work towards, and that will reward their efforts with ships that will allow a single player to go up against large numbers of players in lesser ships and win. Anything else is boring. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.11 00:01:00 -
[22]
I sadly have to agree with Bellum Eternus. T3 ship performance is bound to be heavily pre-nerfed and slow (if ever) to be buffed to reasonable levels. At the same time, their price will remain high for a long time, and even in the very long run, the ISK/performance ratio will still remain poorer than just about anything else.
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Thargat
Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.11 00:05:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Thargat on 11/01/2009 00:05:45 As very few details of T3 ships are known it's nothing more than speculations from my side. But IF T3 ships will be as customizable as claimed by CCP then we might see significant numbers of T3 ships, with custom fittings and layouts, aimed at specific roles currently vacant in the larger fleets.
Small-Medium fleets still have weakspots in one or several areas, anti support ships with good overall range and the ability to spidertank comes to mind. As well as specialized heavy tacklers that can spidertank or possibly do EW at the same time. If bomblaunchers are made available for T3 ships/parts we might see an increase in bomb deployment or similar "special" missions. This however is pure speculation.
Though given time (a year or two) I think that T3 ships will revolutionize eve combat. |
Hardened Heart
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Posted - 2009.01.11 00:07:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Hardened Heart on 11/01/2009 00:08:10 Well, I think we've beaten the fleet portion of this discussion to a lifeless pulp. You've got a pretty convincing argument there Bellum Eternus.
How about other forms of combat? I have less experience in these though so I'll leave that to someone who thinks they have a better idea.
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Ivana Drake
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Posted - 2009.01.11 00:13:00 -
[25]
Shiny toy
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.11 00:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Hardened Heart Edited by: Hardened Heart on 11/01/2009 00:08:10 Well, I think we've beaten the fleet portion of this discussion to a lifeless pulp. You've got a pretty convincing argument there Bellum Eternus.
How about other forms of combat? I have less experience in these though so I'll leave that to someone who thinks they have a better idea.
Well, like I said in an earlier post, I know what I'd *like* them to be, but what they're actually going to turn out to be is something all together different (and probably disappointing).
Frankly, I think that they'll amount to nothing more than a gimmic for quite a while, if they ever amount to anything at all. Players complain about 'solo pwnmobiles', but players like myself just get sick of investing huge amounts of time, ISK and skillpoints into a ship that can't achieve much more than a similar ship that costs 10% as much, requires 25% of the SP and half the time.
End game players are looking for ships that have a *very* high concentration of performance in a single ship, but I think that CCP is dedicated to never making that happen. Every patch there are more and more changes that nerf solo combat, nerf attacking parties and improve the chance for the defender to escape.
It's what is making me play less and less. |
Soporo
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.11 00:35:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Soporo on 11/01/2009 00:38:31
I distinctly remember a Dev saying T3 will just be "different". As opposed to the disparity between T2>T1. Wild speculation is fun, considering the miniscule amount of real info we have about them, but invariably wrong. Wish we had a new Dev blog with even just a few scraps to throw us.
edit: personally I think almost all, if not all, will end up being quite niche with a big price tag and a bigger target painted on them.
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nemmes
Celestial Ascension
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Posted - 2009.01.11 02:02:00 -
[28]
Its gonna be a friggin hoot trying to describe to your FC what your ship does. |
Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.11 02:31:00 -
[29]
I haven't even been paying attention. Untill it's on test server, it's not going to happen IMO. That said, my question is bonuses?
The only thing that stops you or me or anyone from putting T2 medium rails on an Abaddon now is bonuses. If there are none on these T3 mutations, they won't be used. They will be another niche product much like the jump freighter or booster market is now. |
Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2009.01.11 03:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Hardened Heart Edited by: Hardened Heart on 11/01/2009 00:08:10 Well, I think we've beaten the fleet portion of this discussion to a lifeless pulp. You've got a pretty convincing argument there Bellum Eternus.
How about other forms of combat? I have less experience in these though so I'll leave that to someone who thinks they have a better idea.
Well, like I said in an earlier post, I know what I'd *like* them to be, but what they're actually going to turn out to be is something all together different (and probably disappointing).
Frankly, I think that they'll amount to nothing more than a gimmic for quite a while, if they ever amount to anything at all. Players complain about 'solo pwnmobiles', but players like myself just get sick of investing huge amounts of time, ISK and skillpoints into a ship that can't achieve much more than a similar ship that costs 10% as much, requires 25% of the SP and half the time.
End game players are looking for ships that have a *very* high concentration of performance in a single ship, but I think that CCP is dedicated to never making that happen. Every patch there are more and more changes that nerf solo combat, nerf attacking parties and improve the chance for the defender to escape.
It's what is making me play less and less.
Me and you are pretty much on the same page on this, and I think both of us are gonna end up pretty let down by CCP.
Worst part is, we both expect it.
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