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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Mintoko
Gallente Nova Remnants
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Posted - 2009.01.15 09:17:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Mintoko on 15/01/2009 09:23:39 Edited by: Mintoko on 15/01/2009 09:19:15
Originally by: Johli This is funny because any "salvage is theft" posts is akin saying a dev doesn't know about their own game.
That's assuming that we're saying that the game mechanics are not as intended. That's not what we're saying. We don't care how the server code looks at it, we're not saying the devs are dumb. What we are saying is that it, in our opinion, should be changed.
In RL, there are laws regarding the salvage of sea wrecks. If you take something from a wreck belonging to someone else, you can get in trouble for it. Why can we not have that in the game?
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I'm really speaking to the issue of no recourse. If you steal a can I have immediate recourse. ... With salvage there is NO recourse at all.
If I am mining in highsec and you come along and start mining "my" asteroid, I have NO RECOURSE. I am sick of this unfair abuse of game mechanics, frankly. I don't have a problem with the fact that you can mine my asteroid, but I refuse to accept that there is no recourse. I demand that from now on, mining in highsec should aggro you to all other pilots in the system who have at least one mining laser or mining drone fitted.
A couple others thought they we're making some prophetic statement by saying the same thing...maybe you didn't read that far. It's not the same. If the contents of a destroyed ship are labeled as belonging to me, so should the wreck itself.
Originally by: ollobrains2 i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again
No, they removed them because you posted the same message more than half a dozen times. So yeah....big conspiracy there.
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Trind2222
Amarr The Red Ring
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Posted - 2009.01.15 09:27:00 -
[182]
My high sloth 2 salvagers 2 tractor beams.
velocy on my ship whit ab 567 M/S
on lv 4.
ship Isthar. ____________ Wrangler *comes back out wearing his wizard hat and robe* Wrangler: Hail and well met from Blizzard, how might I assist you?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 10:07:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Mintoko In RL, there are laws regarding the salvage of sea wrecks. If you take something from a wreck belonging to someone else, you can get in trouble for it. Why can we not have that in the game?
The thing is, in RL, what's in the wreck doesn't belong to the person who blew the ship up — it belongs to whoever owned the ship.
If you want to make EVE like RL, you should be arguing that not even the loot belongs to you and that taking stuff from NPC wrecks should give you aggression towards the NPC corp/faction, not to the person who created the wreck. After all, when you blow som unsuspecting Angel battleship up, the cargo and salvage belong to the Angels, not you. If you take stuff from the wreck (be it loot or salvage), you're a thief, stealing from the Angels. If someoen else comes and nicks the stuff, he's not stealing from you — he's also stealing from the Angels and should get aggression towards them, not towards you.
So yes, let's make EVE more like RL and give ninja salvagers even more rights in relationship to the wrecks: by any reasonable standard, they should have full looting and tractoring rights, but should incur NPC aggression for interacting with the wreck. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2009.01.15 10:57:00 -
[184]
Originally by: "Mintoko" In RL, there are laws regarding the salvage of sea wrecks. If you take something from a wreck belonging to someone else, you can get in trouble for it. Why can we not have that in the game?
Marine Salvage
Flotsam and Jetsam
The kind of wreckages you see in EVE are, in essence, derelicts.
If you wish to change this, then it would have to be changed such that they belong to the original owner of the vessel; ie, if you blow up an NPC faction's ships, the wreckages belong to that faction, not you or the 'salvage thief'.
But then, you wouldn't like that, because that'd mean no flag for you.
I think I will have said this over 10 times thus far:
Salvage, or the hull of a ship, in EVE, belongs to noone, because they are simply floating husks.
The loot, on the other hand, belongs to the person that destroyed the ship (and only because there was such a high amount of complaints received about ore theft from jetcan miners that flagging had to be introduced), or in the case of missions belongs to the mission owner.
If it would not result in such an insane clutter, database nightmare and general performance hog, (some) loot would float off from destroyed ships the way it does in Freelancer and X3: Reunion, and would be fair game for whoever comes along to take it.
I have seen various ideas for how to 'fix' this 'issue' before. Let me list some of them, and the problems they would cause:
1. Wrecks, when created, do not belong to anyone, and must be 'flagged' by someone for them to own it. If anyone not in the flagging player's corporation or gang takes from the wreck or salvages it, they get flagged to that player and their corp.
--- Salvage thief comes into your mission and instaflags any wrecks he can as belonging to him - this gives him full salvaging and looting rights on whatever wrecks he manages to tag. Causes especially grave issues where a wreckage may contain a mission objective.
2. Wrecks don't belong to anyone and are purely first come, first served. This includes loot
--- We get back to the original 'issue' of jetcan miners, where people are now especially peeved that they have no chance whatsoever to lay claim to salvage or loot, as thieves can take at will
3. Wrecks give a flag if salvaged by anyone that doesn't belong to the corp or gang of the player that created them.
--- Not that much of an issue except if you take into consideration the shift that would occur; Larger corporations or corporations that have multiple people in the mission or in system will be avoided, and smaller corporations, younger players or the like will be targeted instead, creating an unbalanced environment where 'younger players' or 'weaker players' are punished more than 'older players' or 'bigger corps'. This already exists as a problem for individuals or smaller corps in the form of loot theft, anyway.
4. Shift all lvl4 missions to low-sec; mission thieves/salvage thieves don't want to salvage lvl3 or lower missions since it's not worth their time. It lets mission runners in low-sec deal with the thieves/salvagers immediately, before they even get to steal anything
--- *cough* yeah, uh-huh. Find mission runner in low-sec, take in PVP ship(s), eliminate mission runner and loot/salvage all wrecks, including their ship's.
I personally think that the current system has the best 'balance' of the many possible choices. It is not impossible for a player to loot/salvage their mission; it simply requires that they pair up with someone else to help them. Salvagers are scavengers - they're like flies - they're going to be around no matter what you do, and swatting one will only bring two more.
The best thing you can do is to move somewhere without any flies. Failing that, you make a point of removing anything they want, and they'll simply stop coming around. ---
Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN
Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
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Decarus
Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.01.15 11:39:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Mintoko A couple others have already said that...maybe you didn't read that far. It's not the same. If the contents of a destroyed ship are labeled as belonging to me, so should the wreck itself.
Give it a rest. You're just making up arguments now. First of all destroyed ships do not always have loot contents in the wreck. Secondly the only reason they are in a wreck but not in a can next to the wreck is because it's easier on everyone to have 1 thing appear rather than 2. Thirdly, so when you dock in a station (which is a container with functions as far as I care) you own the station?
Just give it a rest already. We all understand you want to make more ISK per hour. We all want to make more ISK per hour. The difference between you and me is that I go out of my way to invent new ways to make more ISK per hour where as you invent ways CCP can help you make more ISK per hour. You have a Dev here telling you that things are working as intended. Hell, you have at least 10 other threads on this matter yet CCP remains adamant along with most of the community which does not stand to gain millions from the change.
This means the neutral parties disagree with you along with the powers that be.. the only support you have is from biased parties. You must be so proud of your crusade. |
Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn
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Posted - 2009.01.15 11:59:00 -
[186]
1) introduce a special new "mission objective" container. It's like a Jettison Container, but with the HP of a Giant Secure Container. This means, you can't shoot it with 1 pop, but you can race to it and steal from.
2) Move all mission objectives that still spawn inside a wreck into such a container
3) Move all mission objectives that currently spawn in a Jetcan into such a container
4) Remove the ownership of wrecks completely. For salvage and loot.
Tada, no more "why is the loot yours but the salvage not" whines.
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Nva Ris
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Posted - 2009.01.15 12:07:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Arous Drephius
Originally by: CCP Prism X it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Devpwnt.
this ^^
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.01.15 13:04:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Nva Ris
Originally by: Arous Drephius
Originally by: CCP Prism X it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Devpwnt.
this ^^
If this doesn't quiet the salvage whiners, nothing will.
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Fail Cat
Sad Panda Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 14:12:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Hugo Splat
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around.
And here I was thinking 'Risk vs Reward' was a big part of the CCP plan also.
Can you point out to me where the risk is please? I see the reward, I am just having trouble finding the risk.
High sec mission runner complaining about risk vs reward makes me laugh.
Bear tears are the best If you want ninja salvagers to have risk, run missions in low sec and just pop them, but then ofc by doing that you are no longer 100% safe...
Im seeing the reward for high sec missioning but not the risk... |
Sieessenschwanz
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Posted - 2009.01.15 15:16:00 -
[190]
Originally by: DHG ransom back the mission objective for a nice amount of isk.
You can get banned for that.
Mission invasion and ninja salvaging is permitted.
Futzing with the mission objective is a definite no no. |
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Sieessenschwanz
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Posted - 2009.01.15 15:18:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Solomon Weyland Just blow up any wrecks they go for, all of them if necessary. Its the simple solution. You will still get the money from bounties and the mission reward itself. All they will get is wasted time and probes.
This only encourages those who do it for the grief caused rather than the ISK gained. |
Naga Elohim
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.15 15:21:00 -
[192]
Stealing salvage is ok when people do missions and abandon the wrecks....
Stealing salvage is also ok when you fail to salvage while you do the mission....
There is alot of reasons why stealing salvage is ok.....
...but it gets funny when I read the forums and see people so mad over something they can prevent with a tractor beam and salvage module.
To the OP, just salvage your crap while you run the mission. Makes sense yes? |
Rufus MacMaranth
Gallente Shadow Front
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Posted - 2009.01.15 16:16:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Napro This is really all I can do now. CCP (at the behest of the whiners) Nerfed every single ship I'm capable of flying. My Missile skills are meaningless in PvP. I have no drone skills to solo Level 4s.
Thank all the nerfs for making Ninjasalvaging my only viable occupation
You are doing it wrong. I used to fly Gallente in missions but got fed up with either sniping and the pain that causes for looting/salvage or losing/recalling drones and the time all that takes. I now fly a Drake and L4s are trivial. I get nicer wreck patterns, have a nice no effort tank and good rat specific DPS. No faction fits, pure T2. It is easy and cheap.
Cheers, Ruf.
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General Ric
EXPLORATIS
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Posted - 2009.01.15 17:23:00 -
[194]
I don't think its unreasonable for someone who kills a ship to want to be able to shoot another player who then salvages that wreck. Salvaging can still be a viable profession, just it won't be zero risk if you do it while the mission runner is still in the area. Since it has been tossed around in this thread as explanation for the current system, even real world maritime law for salvaging awards a certain percentage of the salvage retrieved, often 50% or more, to the owner of the wreck - which in EVE's case is the player who destroyed the ship.
Moving on, one of the most important aspects of game design in EVE is about risk vs. reward. Currently salvagers - especially on multi level missions like the Extravaganzas - have near zero risk with very little actual ISK or SP investment due to the low cost and short training time required to fly a good salvaging destroyer. To maintain this risk vs. reward balance, mission runners need to have an option for recourse if someone is salvaging their mission wrecks to increase the risk for salvagers.
Now if this leads to more PvP and carebears getting popped when they pick a fight with someone stronger than them, I don't see how non-carebears can complain. The only players who really win with the current system are the jackasses who like to **** off other players fully knowing they can't do anything about it. These players are below carebears in my opinion, because they are too cowardly to engage in PvP, but they also want to ruin other players game experience as much as possible. The art of "ninja-salvage" is one of the few hostile actions you can take in high sec without the other player having any retaliation options, and for that reason it needs to be fixed. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 19:47:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Sieessenschwanz
Originally by: DHG ransom back the mission objective for a nice amount of isk.
You can get banned for that.
Mission invasion and ninja salvaging is permitted.
Futzing with the mission objective is a definite no no.
Actually IIRC, ransoming the mission item is fine, it's just taking it and not offering any chance to get it back that is frowned upon.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.01.15 19:50:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Johli
Originally by: Nva Ris
Originally by: Arous Drephius Devpwnt.
this ^^
If this doesn't quiet the salvage whiners, nothing will.
That would be the way to bet! ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Lord Zoran
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2009.01.15 19:52:00 -
[197]
i find it weird how the loot is your but the salvage isn't.
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Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.15 19:54:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Lord Zoran i find it weird how the loot is your but the salvage isn't.
when you take loot, you actually have something in your hangar, while salvaging is chance based. -----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 20:03:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Lord Zoran i find it weird how the loot is your but the salvage isn't.
Because the salvage requires skill training, modules and possibly some rigs to retrieve. The loot does not.
If you can't be arsed with training the skills and fitting the module, you don't deserve to get salvage. |
Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2009.01.15 20:52:00 -
[200]
There is one way you could possibly turn 'em red, if you're willing to put some effort into it.
A ninja salvager is just trying to make money. When one of them arrives on the scene and salvages a couple wrecks, simply offer to let them have the loot, too. Tell your pet ninja that you're just grinding missions for LP, bounties, and lulz. If you get him in the fleet, make a quick hop to a neighboring system; all the wrecks will turn yellow.
If your pet ninja finds this suspicious, simply inform him that you had to go next door and refit your tank for the next mission. Encourage him to keep picking things up.
Come back to the area and relieve him of his ship. Collect whatever loot drops from his cargo hold. It was all "yours" anyway.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:10:00 -
[201]
Oh hi, guys! What's going on in this thread? (Miss me?)
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General Ric
EXPLORATIS
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:34:00 -
[202]
Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja I will say this for the umpteenth time. When it comes to salvage, the owner of the vessel has 'first right' to any equipment or machinery that is on said vessel. A salvager is allowed to remove these things; HOWEVER the owner of the vessel is allowed to lay claim to these salvaged items in court - that is to say if they even get the salvager to go to court.
Beyond this, agreements are made for the time-investment and resource-investment involved in retrieving the equipment/machinery, and the owner of the vessel has to compensate the salvager if they want the stuff back. It's no different from the owner spending the same money on time and resources to go salvage the wreckage(s) themselves.
Yes. The equivalent to the courts in EVE should be "Salvage my wreck on my terms or I'll shoot at you", not "LOL I'm protected by CONCORD while salvaging your wrecks, tough cookies".
Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Any salvage that derives from dismantling the wreckage for scrap metal or other components, however, is purely first-come, first-served.
Trit bars are not equipment or machinery, they are components used in the construction of the vessel hull. Armor plates, the same story. Shield Emmiter arrays, same story. Capacitor Consoles, same story.
Trit bars and scrap metal, I will give you that. But armor plates, shield emitters, capacitor consoles... if that isn't equipment or machinery what is? Just because it is built into your ship by the manufacturer doesn't automatically make it scrap. Yes it might be slightly or even severely damaged, but clearly it is still useful to the "owner" in some capacity. |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.01.15 22:08:00 -
[203]
Originally by: General Ric Yes it might be slightly or even severely damaged, but clearly it is still useful to the "owner" in some capacity.
The "Owner" is whoever gets to it first, and believe me, it's very useful!
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Adaris
Gallente E X I U S
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Posted - 2009.01.15 22:19:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Akita T "Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?"
Because it's not "EVE : Chronicles of Riddick - 'You keep what you kill' "...
haha. indeed. |
AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2009.01.16 00:56:00 -
[205]
General Ric, you seem to forget that even in the real world, you don't have a "Give me a percentage of my salvage back or I'll shoot you" style of agreement - you either get the guy to court or he gets away with your salvage, period.
If you shoot the guy, you become the criminal; he is not STEALING, because he is going through the effort to retrieve stuff from the wreckage.
It should also be noted that the merit salvage system most specifically applies to ships that are in peril not ships that have already sunk.
Wreckages in the real world belong to the individual or company/organization that owns the vessel. If pirates come and blow up the vessel, it does not magically belong to them, it still belongs to the original owner of the vessel.
Unfortunately, EVE has no 'in peril' situation for ships - they're either functioning or destroyed. Also unfortunately, EVE has no system where NPC wrecks belong to their original NPC faction, and there is no system that gradually builds up aggro to said NPC faction if someone takes loot or the salvage from the wrecks.
Technically, salvage and loot on NPC wrecks shouldn't belong to anyone but the NPC corporation, but as with the age old jetcan mining issue, because it was considered 'abandoned' by default, there were no aggro flags.
What happened? CCP invented the can-theft aggro flag, to satisfy the whining miners/mission runners.
What happened? These people not only kept whining because they were STILL being stolen from, but started whining even more because they were being stolen from MORE FREQUENTLY, because there was the chance for pirates that their intended prey would open fire.
What also happened? Younger players, smaller corps and smaller groups of players became more likely targets than larger corps etc, because they are easier pickings.
Do you see the issue here? Ninja salvagers are on their own; at best, they can have a few logistics ships to come and keep them alive should someone shoot at them, but they cannot add more DPS, whereas the mission runner and his entire corporation are afforded the ability to shoot at this guy and any remote supporters at will. Hell, they're even allowed to take these people on one-by-one.
So you see, mission runners and miners have in essence only hurt themselves in the past few years, and continue to hurt themselves blindly. Making salvage flag to the mission runner will simply have more individuals and smaller corps being picked on, and let the fat cats get more isk as their missions magically stop being salvaged.
This game's picture is of a far higher resolution than the 1x1 pixels that represent the whining individual carebear that doesn't want to deal with corp politics that wants everything handed to him on a silver platter.
Did you ever consider using the Orca in your missions? 75km range, 2km/s tractoring speed - I'd LOVE to see a cruiser sized ship (generally required to survive long enough if aggro messes up so that you're able to get out) do 2km/s...
It also has the cargo capacity to scoop ALL the loot - not to mention if you have a dedicated salvager on hand you can easily have a 55% chance across 8 salvagers with a 9.5s salvager cycle time (the implant is cheap enough).
"The ninja will simply move to next to the orca"
And what if you don't tractor those wrecks that are far away? He'd have to go out to them if he really wants them. He can only go for one at a time, so while he's busy with those on one side of your orca, you simply tractor the other side's wrecks; unless he's in an inty, he's not going to AB the 2km/s+ he needs to get to your orca before the wrecks, if he was further away from your orca than they were when you began tractoring.
You see, I can think of all these wonderful methods to use to prevent myself from getting jacked off by a salvage ninja; why can't you?
Do you 'not want to deal with childish corp politics' or what? |
Chruker
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Posted - 2009.01.16 13:54:00 -
[206]
Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense ----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi - Speedup IGB table rendering |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.01.16 14:23:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Chruker Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense
If you read the CCP response...
Originally by: CCP Prism X If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
...you would already know the answer to your question.
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Fail Cat
Sad Panda Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.16 14:25:00 -
[208]
Beat me to it |
St3v3sancho
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2009.01.16 15:30:00 -
[209]
Eve is meant to be and reputed to be a tough game to live in.
Salvage it as you go along. Set him and his corp to a negative standing and blow them up in low sec systems. Salvage other peoples missions to increase your revenue and get revenge. So what if that person never diod anything to you. It's a GAME and the person in the mission should also appreciate that it's a game and how you act in it, is not representative of how you act in real life.
I salvage other peoples missions every single day pretty much and make decent money out of it. Do other people do it to me? Yes. Do I mind it? No.
Sorry boys and girls but it's a survival of the fittest kind of game. Just mop up your tears and get some revenge for yourself.
Use the tools at your disposal to deal with it rather than crying out of game.
Just my take on things. |
St3v3sancho
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2009.01.16 15:33:00 -
[210]
All this talk of people going to court and who owns what items is such garbage.
It's a GAME. lol. |
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