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Immortis Vexx
Lupus Draconis Dragehund
8
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Posted - 2012.04.18 20:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
I like the idea of taxing gate use and docking but sadly I do not think that is the answer. We must also think of our un-tenured brethren in this. In a game that is so massively large as EVE is, going from one end of the other would become expensive really quickly. Some of you shrug this off as being not a problem but what if you only had a few hundred thousand? Any tax/use fee would have to be truly insignificant to make it not horrible for our young players and at that point it would lose value entirely. Some would then argue that new players would be exempt from this. How long would it last? Based on a total number of jumps/docks? A system that has such a far reaching ability should also be kept fairly simple. I think a general sales tax/mfg tax increase is sadly the way to go.
Vexx |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
12
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Posted - 2012.04.18 22:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Matrix Operator wrote:Ethilia wrote:More sales and broker taxes are a really bad idea. All it will do is make small single step outfits totally unprofitable. Instead, you will have to take something all the way from gathering inputs to final product since every step along the way adds cost. When taxes are low the cumulative additional cost isn't so terrible for a 5 step process, but if taxes were say 10% at each step it would be a 46% increase in cost from inputs to final product. It is impossible to compete when your costs are so out of line from big outfits who don't pay those costs. As things are now: -NPC corp taxes apply to NPC payouts like bounties. Increasing this tax will decrease the amount of isk coming in from NPC corp missioners. -Station taxes apply to sell orders. There will be an initial price shift to as suppliers and manufacters adjust, but then so will the end price of the product that manufactures will sell to market (the cost will be handed down to the cusumer). Of course moving to lower sec space will have its advantages for manufactures (more incentive to move to low sec / null sec and reap the benefits). Also, having a unmitigated isk faucet by some theories of inflation is a major contributor to inflation which drives up the price of supplies as well (current inflation rates are completely out of control). Efforts to decrease the isk faucet/sink ratio will potentially help stabilize prices, even if there is an initial price adjustment from the taxes.
If I understand you correctly you are saying station trade taxes will be passed on to the consumer. The whole point of my post was to point out that it will NOT be passed on. Instead, big operations will simply build things from top to bottom tax free (vertical integration) while the small guys will be forced out of the market due to loses from taxes.
I highly doubt NPC corp mission runners account for a large portion of the isk faucets from bounties. It seems much more likely that 0.0 bots, complexes, anomalies, and ratters are the ones who take the lions share of bounties.
The massive printing of isk is totally unbalanced and undoubtedly a major cause of inflation. However, station trade taxes are a terrible isk sink. The most obvious solution is to hack bounties and isk faucets in general across the board until they match isk sinks. The isk can be replace with materials or something else (monocles? ).
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
676
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Posted - 2012.04.18 23:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
Increasing the cost of doing anything other than shoot rats, is the wrong idea. |
Matrix Operator
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2012.04.19 17:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ethilia wrote:If I understand you correctly you are saying station trade taxes will be passed on to the consumer. The whole point of my post was to point out that it will NOT be passed on. Instead, big operations will simply build things from top to bottom tax free (vertical integration) while the small guys will be forced out of the market due to loses from taxes. I highly doubt NPC corp mission runners account for a large portion of the isk faucets from bounties. It seems much more likely that 0.0 bots, complexes, anomalies, and ratters are the ones who take the lions share of bounties. The massive printing of isk is totally unbalanced and undoubtedly a major cause of inflation. However, station trade taxes are a terrible isk sink. The most obvious solution is to hack bounties and isk faucets in general across the board until they match isk sinks. The isk can be replace with materials or something else (monocles? ).
I say 'tough cookies' to that.
Here's the reality. CCP isn't going to touch either the null sec or the high sec bounty payouts and have made that obvious. Otherwise they would have done it a long time ago (this is a long term problem). The reason they will never touch the null sec payouts is that they have made it a core game design goal to make Null Sec more lucrative in all ways than any other region in order to balance the risk/reward ratio that null sec needs to attract players. Being constantly blown up makes the lossess of null sec pretty high and thus they will not make any changes to make change the isk potential of of the null sec regions any less.
Additionally, the hi sec missioners are a probably one of the more substantial groups in Eve in numbers (remember that 60-70 percent of players live in hi-sec), and CCP fears the rage quits and forum rage if they substantially nerf their income.... they likely fear the missioner group more than the industry group.
So no matter how much we want it (me included) decreaseing bounties isn't going to happen.
In regards to verticle intergration...tough. It is more important for CCP to successfully sink isk out the game to bring stability to the economy, than it is to protect 1man+alt corps. This is Eve, adapt. If taxes makes it hard for middile manufacturers to compete, they will just have to adjust by joining larger corps that *are* vertically integrating, or start vertically intergrating themselves. Bring on the Age of the Robber Barons!!!.... John D. Rockefeller would be proud.
Of course if CCP wanted to throw the middle manufacturer a bone they could provide loopholes such as exempting private contracts (not public or course) from all taxes. Those adept enough to be able to forge established intercorprate deals with suppliers, manufacturers, and distributors would be able to survive... this is supposed to be a game of multiplayer corps and multiplayer cooperation right?
Higher taxes are coming. Its already been stated by CCP. They will probably wait until the mid-point between releases to do it in order not to make too many new changes to quickly, is my guess. But I'll bet my freighter that they will eventually be here before the Winter.
So for the question of verticle intergration, guess what my new corp name is going to be... Standard Oil.. This is Eve...survival of the fittest in PvP doesn't just pertain to pew-pew. Adapt... or give me all your stuff.
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Tomnio
Particle Men Industries Beyond-Repair
10
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Posted - 2012.04.19 20:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Well, to be the concerned citizen of New Eden that I am, what am I getting for my taxes being increased other than my hard worked for iskies taken away for no apparent reason?
Universe Health Care?????? |
Matrix Operator
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
23
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Posted - 2012.04.19 22:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tomnio wrote:Well, to be the concerned citizen of New Eden that I am, what am I getting for my taxes being increased other than my hard worked for iskies taken away for no apparent reason?
Universe Health Care??????
You get cookies... cookies which are tough... oh, and a more stable game economy.
I guess we could have floormats for our clone vats. Would that count as universal healthcare? |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
50
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Posted - 2012.04.19 23:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
Noob Corp tax should be set to 80% to 90% to discourage high sec farmers from war dodging inside them. |
Lord Thingol
Polish Mercenaries S.A. The Nameless Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.04.20 10:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
It works totally opposite. Don't get me wrong, I am against botting, but the mining bots kept the mineral prices low.
Problems are Hulkmageddon, PI instead of NPC POS fuel supply, reduced drop (which increases the mineral / module prices), removing the drone minerals (which will make miners to mine other ores, AND increase ISK supply from bounties).
If we consider this, we can see that CCP is making everything to increase inflation, as there is less and less ISK faucets... (the only two things they did was reducing bounties and removing insurance for suicide gankers).
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Pyotr Kamarovi
CASCADE OF SPECTRES Comic Mischief
1
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Posted - 2012.04.20 11:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
Why not just decrease the amount of raw ISK generated by missions, bounties and incursions, balancing it with an increase in salvage and/or item drops. Dropping them down to maybe a third and increasing the amount of items dropped on average to accommodate should do it, or even only halving it. |
Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic
13
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Posted - 2012.04.20 11:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Reading all the various posts and some people seem to post without reading what was said before them.
To the point, There's on average 24 Trillion isk spare every month, if i were them, my goal would be to cut that down slowly until it reachs a yearly growth of 1-3% relative to all the isk in the game(the inflation goal).
yes they added bounties, but they're making incursions last longer, drasticly lowering isk per hour. i think that a 1% tax/broker increase and setting the NPC tax to 15% will have a bigger impact than most of us realize, and it will significantly reduce the amount of ISK being printed monthly. maybe not enough, but that's a good way to start, you do not want to over-change something so that you'll have to fix it back.
johnny |
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YuuKnow
209
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Posted - 2012.04.20 12:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lord Thingol wrote:It works totally opposite. Don't get me wrong, I am against botting, but the mining bots kept the mineral prices low.
Problems are Hulkmageddon, PI instead of NPC POS fuel supply, reduced drop (which increases the mineral / module prices), removing the drone minerals (which will make miners to mine other ores, AND increase ISK supply from bounties).
If we consider this, we can see that CCP is making everything to increase inflation, as there is less and less ISK faucets... (the only two things they did was reducing bounties and removing insurance for suicide gankers).
My understanding of economics is limited, but I believe that this is more correctly 'supply and demand', not 'inflation'. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
yk |
Matrix Operator
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2012.04.20 12:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Pyotr Kamarovi wrote:Why not just decrease the amount of raw ISK generated by missions, bounties and incursions, balancing it with an increase in salvage and/or item drops. Dropping them down to maybe a third and increasing the amount of items dropped on average to accommodate should do it, or even only halving it.
For reasons posted in post #34 bounty decreases will probably not happen, IMHO. Also, CCP just announced changes to make loot reprocessing less of a contributor to mineral supply to try to promote the miners. Increasing the number of salvaged items goes backward. |
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2012.04.20 13:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
A subtle removal of ISK could be through money transfer fees. Your main is in one system, your alt is thirty systems away, so transfering ISK between the two could be 1% per jump. You are paying for the electronics to transfer from system to system.
A direct trade between two players could have a flat fee. Since you are not "physically" moving goods between each other, you are subtly paying dock workers or drones to do the work for you.
Quick buy or sell orders versus long term buy or sell orders on the market could have different fees too. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
191
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Posted - 2012.04.20 15:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
No more taxes, Free floating Office, Factory and lab prices.
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Moto Akimoto
Tengu and Cash
11
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Posted - 2012.04.22 00:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Taxes for trading transactions are too high as is, if anything CCP should add the skill "Tax Evasion" to reduce it to 0% for traders.
In the U.S, taxes on capital gains is on average about 30% which gets futher reduced by expenses like broker fees, interest, tax breaks, capital loses, etc. So the average tax percentage after deductions is about 10-20% per year.
In EVE, the lowest tax is 0.5% PER sell transactions. There are are no deductions, no tax breaks, no writeoffs for loses, nothing. So assuming you are a passive trader doing 1 trade per week on the same item, you are already paying 26% per 52 week period If you are a more active trader, you probably pay 100%-300% per year just on taxes.
Add broker fees into the mix and things get ... fugly.
Maybe my math is off or maybe trading in EVE is more like retailing instead, in that case I've been doing it all wrong since I started playing.
TLDR: Trading transaction fees are too high, focus should shift to the ISK faucets. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
101
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Posted - 2012.04.22 00:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
Manufacturing/R&D NPC slots price x50 please. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
138
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Posted - 2012.04.22 05:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
Personally I thought the influx of ISK from bounties to be rather high. Something like 26 Trillion ISK per Annum
Taxes on sales are redundant as mentioned. If anything, it will just make profit from manufacturing harder and squeeze out the little guy a little more. Considering governemnt usage of taxes and the impact they have on economy, small business, and working individuals, you'd think someone would have thought of this
Bounties obviously aren't really that high, given the totals come from all over known space and are affected by a much larger portion of the player base than pretty much anything else
This leaves fees as the only remaining suggested means of dealing with it, and their is no reasonable way one can functionally impact the system with fees without bankrupting new players or even invested players, so that doesn't really work
Here is an option and it does involve taxes, just not the standard kind we are all used to. Tax the buyer. The seller isn't impacted and provided it is only on end products, neither is the manufacturer for the most part. Any complete ship or module sale would be taxed on the purchasers end through a new sales tax applied to end products. 10% or more should be sufficient
To avoid the workaround with contracts, all contracts would have a fee based on their value placed on them which would affect all contracts in the system, excluding direct item for item trades. This includes the possibility for fees applied to courier contracts, and would also affect Want to Buy contracts for the value of that contract.
PLEX would not be available for Trade Contracts of course and would be considered at ISK market value for purposes of fees. Fees could be around the 10% margin as well and paid by the purchaser. All existing taxes and fees would still apply of course
Side note based on one of the more recent posts I can see as I sit here and type: Current taxation where I live, including all taxes on purchases, freight, tariffs, and manufacturing, as well as inherited taxes from manufacturing and resource aquisition and employment before it reaches the consumer market, and income tax, property tax and all the rest is more than 62% of annual income.
It was estimated at 62% more than a few years ago and is considered to increase by 2% per year on average. I'm sure we'd like to believe that is impossible and it couldn't possibly continue to increase in such a fashion and yet, it does. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
138
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Posted - 2012.04.22 06:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Another thought is tax on direct ISK transfers between characters. This could be in around the 7-8% margin and be applied to the sender when the ISK is transferred. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
695
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Posted - 2012.04.22 06:44:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Another thought is tax on direct ISK transfers between characters. This could be in around the 7-8% margin and be applied to the sender when the ISK is transferred.
Place odd ball item on market in isolated station, set price to X, pay less tax. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
17
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Posted - 2012.04.22 11:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
A few already commented in here about the npc slot prices..
I would just like to suggest that ccp considered this as a grand scheme change and upgrade to game play..
POS and PI integrated into these services..
Especially player to player public renting of research and building slots..
Nerf npc back to the stoneage. 5 slots per station. Let the prices float and also link it to faction and corp standing and security.. These features seem to be half way done already. Consider making it a patty cake model.. So Average the 5 current prices and that will be price "tomorrow" when there is an empty slot for a day the average ofc goes down. Simple and effective. The same can be done with standing and security. To make this even more interesting make some stations have 5 slots (high sec) and 20 slots in low sec. If the low sec slots gets populated by high sec standing players the "demands" on security goes up. This mechanic could be beneficial in later floating security status of systems.
Just a few dreams..
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Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
140
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Posted - 2012.04.22 23:35:00 -
[51] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Another thought is tax on direct ISK transfers between characters. This could be in around the 7-8% margin and be applied to the sender when the ISK is transferred. Place odd ball item on market in isolated station, set price to X, pay less tax.
Doesn't surprise me that there are ways around it easily thought of, but I don't think that is really a concern. Tax evasion is possible in rl; why not in a game? Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
66
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Posted - 2012.04.22 23:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
Matrix Operator wrote:Are taxes the sleeping giant when it comes to fixing the isk faucets? More taxes are coming: Skip to 27:00 for more details. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZD6-vGQms&feature=plcp&context=C4f10f15VDvjVQa1PpcFOEzQi5G2x0m0l32YE8I8CIMb3LQJfYC8w%3DQuestion is... what's the best way the new taxes should be implemented? I for one would be in favor of 1. An increase in NPC corp taxes to 15% (from 11%) 2. A sales tax increase on all hi sec NPC stations to 8%. 3. A sales tax increase on all low sec NPC stations to 3% 4. A sales tax increase on all null sec NPC stations to 2% 3. Sales taxes at Alliance Outpost should be set by the alliance and goes into alliance/corp funds to motivate players to get out of highsec. Never thought I'ld be proposing more taxess... . But its probably the easiest way to fix the sink/faucet imbalance in the game.
President Obama, you play Eve? |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
44
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Posted - 2012.04.23 00:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
Taxes work weird when you start analyzing competition and growth. A flat taxi is what creates the diminishing returns phenomena. If you raise taxes, smaller corps have more of a chance because the larger corps cannot grow to monopoly size. It would kill the market too cause we would all go to contracts to avoid taxes.
OP proposal is to tax high sec, home of the small corp. and put a loose reigh on null and low. Presumably this is to encourage growth in null.
We already have the largest corps/alliances in null. Op's proposal would further the rift. This works for the null move but kills small business incentives in the gamer sandbox versus the professional sandbox |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
701
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Posted - 2012.04.23 01:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lot of government employees in this thread I see. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
701
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Posted - 2012.04.23 01:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Doesn't surprise me that there are ways around it easily thought of, but I don't think that is really a concern. Tax evasion is possible in rl; why not in a game?
Creating needless hoops and busy work for customers, is not a good idea. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
140
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Posted - 2012.04.23 02:56:00 -
[56] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Doesn't surprise me that there are ways around it easily thought of, but I don't think that is really a concern. Tax evasion is possible in rl; why not in a game? Creating needless hoops and busy work for customers, is not a good idea.
Well, the point is most people won't bother to run around finding X station and putting up n transferable item to avoid a 7-8% tax on a transfer of ISK. For the ones that do, I wonder how much time they'll invest and whether it will be worth it. Obviously, transfers in excess of 10m will probably result in this infrequently, and transfers higher than that will be much more frequent.
I suppose it is a moot point though, considering it will also affect Character Bazaar trades and push the cost up on those for the buyer. That isn't something you can dodge around either. Still, I see what you mean. EVE players will often do anything to save a buck.
Of course, if there were a higher sales tax on everything, then it would be cheaper to just make a ISK transfer. If ISK transfers were cheaper people would buy and sell items through gift contracts, and ISK transfers, (More benefit to the buyer than the seller.), which would open up more opportunities to scam.
edit: obviously trade windows could still be taxed. /edit
So I guess we just increase taxes on manufacturing, let people reduce the impact by applying the tax to the sell order, and in the end it results in pretty much the same thing. It also doesn't do a thing to affect inflation-instead causing it-and affects all levels of market right down to the resources.
This does however make it potentially more profitable for start to finish manufacturing corporations, so maybe it is not a bad thing. It will unfortunately make it much harder on those who don't have corps to rely on however, and make it harder to sell intermediate materials and resources.
I'm not sure we're solving anything here, but it is dynamic, or promises to be for a short while. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Bully Hedro
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2012.04.23 04:55:00 -
[57] - Quote
Maxpie wrote:Matrix Operator wrote:Are taxes the sleeping giant when it comes to fixing the isk faucets? More taxes are coming: Skip to 27:00 for more details. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZD6-vGQms&feature=plcp&context=C4f10f15VDvjVQa1PpcFOEzQi5G2x0m0l32YE8I8CIMb3LQJfYC8w%3DQuestion is... what's the best way the new taxes should be implemented? I for one would be in favor of 1. An increase in NPC corp taxes to 15% (from 11%) 2. A sales tax increase on all hi sec NPC stations to 8%. 3. A sales tax increase on all low sec NPC stations to 3% 4. A sales tax increase on all null sec NPC stations to 2% 3. Sales taxes at Alliance Outpost should be set by the alliance and goes into alliance/corp funds to motivate players to get out of highsec. Never thought I'ld be proposing more taxess... . But its probably the easiest way to fix the sink/faucet imbalance in the game. President Obama, you play Eve?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yM3QXVpEpVY/T2oUNY0z99I/AAAAAAAAQb8/sHWmParVYn8/s1600/voting+GOP.jpg |
Slavemaster
ICC - Information Control Corporation
33
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Posted - 2012.04.23 05:04:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Completely agree with the OP and Scrapyard Bob. Industry slot cost and market order change fees are scandalously low. Taxes and fees should generally be a lot high in high sec than in low or null.
It's just rebalancing the other taxes like they did with PI importing/exporting
"market order change fees are scandalously low."
Ehh, so 1% is scandalously low? You know that if it gets any higher than this game, or channel will turn into a spam fest. Pfft, Tsk - tsk "Do not presume to address matters beyond your competence" |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
885
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Posted - 2012.04.23 05:09:00 -
[59] - Quote
Another possibility would be to charge a monthly fee for alliance / corporation registration with the authorities. Maybe even a per-member tariff and per-corp tariff. The problem with that is "how do you enforce it?". Do you require the monthly fee to be paid in order to keep your station offices open? What happens if the fee is not paid? Disbanding the corp/alliance?
Transaction taxes are tricky. If they are too high, then you encourage people to just vertically integrate to avoid sales taxes and broker fees. Which is exactly what you see happening with Planetary Interaction. Because the tariffs are so severe, people go to great lengths to avoid paying them.
PI was a multi-faceted problem:
- PI goods aren't worth all that much. CCP has failed to add additional demands for PI goods (such as implant BPCs, adding more PI goods to other recipes). No new item should have been introduced in the past few years which depend on a single material source (such as "only minerals" or "only PI inputs").
- The PG/CPU limits on command centers are so low that you can't setup a harvest colony that generates more then a few million ISK/day in low/null. If CCP were to increase the PG/CPU on the colonies, it would be easier to pay for POCOs from increased volume.
- Planets have such low re-spawn rates that you can easily run them dry if you have too many people working the same planet. Which discourages people from flocking to the same planets (it's better to see a world with few competitors).
- One-size-fits-all of the POCO, instead of giving us 3-4 sizes (like POS towers) so you could pick how much HP, office capacity you wanted to pay for.
- Because individual colonies don't produce that much income, you have to tax them at a high rate to pay off the POCO.
- The ability of a POCO owner to charge anywhere from 1/10th to 10x the rate of a hi-sec POCO is too variable on the upper-end.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
704
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Posted - 2012.04.23 05:15:00 -
[60] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Another possibility would be to charge a monthly fee for alliance / corporation registration with the authorities. Maybe even a per-member tariff and per-corp tariff. The problem with that is "how do you enforce it?". Do you require the monthly fee to be paid in order to keep your station offices open? What happens if the fee is not paid? Disbanding the corp/alliance?
What purpose does this serve? It will discourage corp membership. Is that what Eve needs or wants?
Thiis next is not directed at you, Bob.
If the problem CCP wants to solve is monetary inflation, then solve that problem by whacking the problem at its source, the generation of ISK. Attempting to play all these other hidden tax and fee games is quite honestly foolish.
There are far too many unforseen consequences with taxes and fees and a lot more code than "Bounty = Bounty * 0.9" |
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