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Dreadpilot Roberts
R.U.S.T. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.18 12:18:00 -
[1]
No way rapier can fit ewar properly now that painters are viable and still sport some kind of tank. So i propose introduction of scripts for webz ... 50% range nerf but 90% velocity reduction.
Any comments ? |
Raniss
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Posted - 2009.01.18 12:20:00 -
[2]
Join the world of the arazu.
ps you should be whining about falcons atm like everyone else. |
General Coochie
The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.01.18 12:39:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Raniss Join the world of the arazu.
ps you should be whining about falcons atm like everyone else.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.18 12:45:00 -
[4]
Isnt it a bit strange to complain about a ship being too weak because its ewar was boosted?
I agree rapier is weak, and it would be nice to be able to fit a tank better. I just dont see how increasing the strength of its ewar further (which according to you was the problem in the first place), well solve the problem that it is paper thin. |
SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.18 12:55:00 -
[5]
I concur, boost E-war of the other races, than Caldari, so they get equally usefull.
Wrong forum by the way.
rgds |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.01.18 13:00:00 -
[6]
It's not THAT weak as long as you look at in terms of a pure gang ship:
3x 220II, Cov-ops cloak
Yt8 MWD, WD II, 2x SWII, TP II, ECCM II
1600RT, 2x EANM II, DCU II
2x Trimarks
(Needs a 3% PG Implant or downgrade the guns, theyre a secondary concern anyway)
35K EHP before any gang skills or implants.
Obviously benefits hugely from remote repping and the EWAR spread in the mids is entirely down to personal taste, but as a webbing target painting gang support ship it pretty much does everything it's supposed to. |
Dreadpilot Roberts
R.U.S.T. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.18 13:06:00 -
[7]
t2 minnie ships were never meant to armor tank ... makes them lose bonus of speed and they have a crappy hole in resists. Boosting webz 20km 90% would mean that u can fit 1 web 1 point 1 tp, mwd and 2 x LSE and be useful in fast hac gangs |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.01.18 13:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: fkingfurious on 18/01/2009 13:41:34
Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts t2 minnie ships were never meant to armor tank ... makes them lose bonus of speed and they have a crappy hole in resists. Boosting webz 20km 90% would mean that u can fit 1 web 1 point 1 tp, mwd and 2 x LSE and be useful in fast hac gangs
Not meant to?
Who cares wtf they were MEANT to do. Armor tanked it has a pretty decent buffer and 5 slots (after the mwd) to fit any combination of EWAR you want, making it an invaluable gang ship.
Or you can cling to your outdated philosophy of speed+extenders and die like every other tard out there who refuses to move with the times.
Your choice ofc.
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.01.18 13:49:00 -
[9]
Are people still saying the Rapier are gimped? There is nothing wrong with them at all other than people want them to be a "do-it-all" ship (web, TP, point, mwd, and shield tank like someone said)... here's the fact, it's not the end-all-be-all ship. It is an amazing fleet support ship, you just have to work with your gangmates to figure out how you're going to fit it...
Webs = amazing (granted not as good as pre-QR, but you'll survive, I know we are) TPs = AMAZING since QR, ask any missile user in the game and they should agree with that Point =/= Rapier's job.... let someone else do that MWD = meh, go for it if you can, I've never been a big speed freak in this game. Shield tank = One of the best tbh (50/50/40/40 iirc) and in a RR fleet, it isn't too shabby at armor either (don't remember those)
If you want shield tanking I recommend the following:
Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Target Painter II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Depending on fleet composition, you might go with 2 TPs and one web.
If you're willing to consider a RRBS keeping you alive (and this way you can throw on a point):
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Target Painter II Target Painter II Warp Scrambler II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
You might drop one of the TPs or Webs for a cap booster for if things get hairy, but as a Rapier Pilot you should be picking your fights before getting into them.
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Raniss
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Posted - 2009.01.18 14:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: fkingfurious Edited by: fkingfurious on 18/01/2009 13:41:34
Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts t2 minnie ships were never meant to armor tank ... makes them lose bonus of speed and they have a crappy hole in resists. Boosting webz 20km 90% would mean that u can fit 1 web 1 point 1 tp, mwd and 2 x LSE and be useful in fast hac gangs
Not meant to?
Who cares wtf they were MEANT to do. Armor tanked it has a pretty decent buffer and 5 slots (after the mwd) to fit any combination of EWAR you want, making it an invaluable gang ship.
Or you can cling to your outdated philosophy of speed+extenders and die like every other tard out there who refuses to move with the times.
Your choice ofc.
BUT I WANT MY SOLOPWNMOBILE BACK |
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners
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Posted - 2009.01.18 14:06:00 -
[11]
TBH rapier is meant to stop ships so it should recieve a bonus to webbing effectiveness as well as range and i personally as a Lv5 recon pilot who flew rapiers in the past would be happy to lose my 5% damage bonus in exchanged for a 10% webbing effectiveness bonus per level (making 60% webs 90% and 50% webs 75% when fitted) even 7.5% would be better than nothing but really 10% per level is where it should be.
Before anyone goes OMG overpowered its exactly the same bonus as the kronos and paladin get and while yes the range would be longer it wont be that much longer lv 4 recon with T2 web has a range of 34kms kronos which because it cost 600mil normally is semi pimped in PvP will probably be using a TS/domination (TS should not have this range really but CCP screwed up when the redid faction webs) web with 15km range or even possibly an officer web since they are now cheaper with between 16 and 20km range. |
Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.18 14:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts No way rapier can fit ewar properly now that painters are viable and still sport some kind of tank. So i propose introduction of scripts for webz ... 50% range nerf but 90% velocity reduction.
Any comments ?
No matter how much i would love a web boost it aint gonna happen and tbvh, it shouldnt.
2x Lv characters Rapier/Claymore + skirmish link + TS/domination web + Overload already goes out to 108km And yes this is actually ingame possible and not theoretical. I know of more than a few pilots now that have maxed skills in claymores and rapiers.
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Sonorra Baki
Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.18 14:14:00 -
[13]
3x 425mm + Cloak 2x LSE + Invul + Web + 24km dis + MWD 3x Gyros + DCU
2x extender rigs 4x Hobs + 4x ewar drones
Super fun behind enemy lines ninja style |
Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners
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Posted - 2009.01.18 14:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mikal Drey
Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts No way rapier can fit ewar properly now that painters are viable and still sport some kind of tank. So i propose introduction of scripts for webz ... 50% range nerf but 90% velocity reduction.
Any comments ?
No matter how much i would love a web boost it aint gonna happen and tbvh, it shouldnt.
2x Lv characters Rapier/Claymore + skirmish link + TS/domination web + Overload already goes out to 108km And yes this is actually ingame possible and not theoretical. I know of more than a few pilots now that have maxed skills in claymores and rapiers.
Domi warp disruptor does almost as much and some peple even fit large neuts or nos on their curse in order to do that over 100kms (gets a bit expensive as need officer neut for 100kms but i know people that have been going to use it) plus damps and tracking disruptors can work over 100kms.
Webs are the closest thing the rapier has to a damage reducing EWAR since its allows it to dictate range but since the web nerf the ability to dictate range is pretty much gone before if you dual webbed a ceptor it would not catch you now even if your MWDing away from it, it still could. That a dual webbed ceptor by a rapier which specialise in webbing sill goes over 1k is silly even pre QR with poly gist overloaded everything crows going at 50kms a second if you some how managed to get two webs on them you would get them down to 500 m/s now if the are snaked and overloaded with just 2 overdrives a claw will go 1.3km/s dual webbed that does not include a claymore giving bonuses or a booster (drug) to me that seems a little too fast.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.18 18:07:00 -
[15]
Edited by: P''uck on 18/01/2009 18:09:54 No matter how good TPs get (well, not really NO matter, but pretty darn close...) it'S still the lolewar and the job of the rapier turns out to be the slowing stuff down part. Which pretty much means you need 3 webs (and the hyena is close to useless), and still suck at it.
On the other hand, I havent tried a triple TP rapier yet, maybe its teh secks, but I seriously doubt it
Come on, that aint nice... the grass is SO much greener on the falcon side, its not even remotely pretty anymore
edit: and the armorbuffer rapier is really only useful in a heavy gang... |
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.01.18 18:28:00 -
[16]
I love my Rapier though I wish it had a bit higher base speed and instead of the tp bonus one for web velocity. The nano nerf kinda hit it hard. 400ms with a full snake set is . |
TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.18 19:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Raniss Join the world of the arazu.
ps you should be whining about falcons atm like everyone else.
My ceptor still fears rapiers. |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.01.18 19:22:00 -
[18]
You people are silly fitting ACs to a rapier. How are you going to hit interceptors you have webbed and painted? After all, everyone needs some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
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Posted - 2009.01.18 19:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Spaztick You people are silly fitting ACs to a rapier. How are you going to hit interceptors you have webbed and painted?
How do you hit the ships you've jammed with your Falcon? Exactly. You dont - your gang does. |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.01.18 19:40:00 -
[20]
I wouldn't even bother fitting guns to my rapier if I could sit off and web/paint ships at 200km. As it is, I'm within 40km - the useful range of artillery and not ACs. |
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P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.18 19:49:00 -
[21]
Edited by: P''uck on 18/01/2009 19:52:15
Originally by: Inara Subaka Point =/= Rapier's job.... let someone else do that
Sure, it's not the primary role of the rapier to put a point on something... but... double or even triple webbing people without having them pointed isnt very responsible.
And you cant always coordinate that with the "other" tacklers on comms, in fact its very inconvenient. Which means: you bring a point.
Also, these days, you dont need the rapier to kill every other target as you did pre QR, when everybody and their grandmother had the benny hill tune on autorepeat. these days you are just needed (if even ) to pick off/tackle the small, fast ****. So between applying some laughable dps to the primaries youre busy killing stuff which nobody bothers pointing.
So... unless we're talking about sitting in big ass bubbles, you need a point.
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Speedie969
Minmatar Pernicious Creed
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Posted - 2009.01.18 19:53:00 -
[22]
it needs a bonus to web effectivnes as well as range
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.01.18 21:03:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/01/2009 21:04:59
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Originally by: Spaztick You people are silly fitting ACs to a rapier. How are you going to hit interceptors you have webbed and painted?
How do you hit the ships you've jammed with your Falcon? Exactly. You dont - your gang does.
You dont jam ships your mates are killing, you are jamming those that arent getting shot.
The falcons job is done after the ships is jammed. The rapiers/huginns role is to supress frigates on the battlefield, and currently it struggles handling one t1 frig in reasonable time.
ACs on the huginn, arties on the rapier.
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Krystal Demishy
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Posted - 2009.01.18 21:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Raniss Join the world of the arazu.
ps you should be whining about falcons atm like everyone else.
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2009.01.18 21:22:00 -
[25]
Whats the problem? Hauls 832m^3 while cloaked. Stick on rigs you get 1100m^3. Pretty usefull imo.
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kyrv
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Posted - 2009.01.18 22:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: kyrv on 18/01/2009 22:11:29 My thoughts it was broken but not so sure now seems like very little difference between strong/weak skills is what stuck out.
Its not tailorable this mainly points towards the sig radius hopeing it would affect tollerance to snipers not quite so which from my view removes fleet operations, although skilled ppl im sure what nps.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.01.18 22:15:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Orakkus on 18/01/2009 22:15:52
Originally by: Omara Otawan The falcons job is done after the ships is jammed. The rapiers/huginns role is to supress frigates on the battlefield, and currently it struggles handling one t1 frig in reasonable time.
I think this is probably the true real point of contention. A Falcon/Rook can reasonably expect to jam two or three ships effectively (more of course with better skills), and those ships can range from T1 frigates to even Capital ships. The Amarr E-war ships are also just as effective when compared to the same spread of ships. Gallente E-war ships, while not nearly as effective overall, still work reasonably well against everything from T1 frigates all the way up to Capital ships.
Then.. there is Minmatar E-war (TPs and Webs). Minmatar E-war is really the only handicapped E-war in that as the target gets bigger, the E-war gets significantly less and less effective. Target Painting an interceptor is great, but what's the point of target painting anything above a battlecruiser? Webbing fast Assault Frigs is awesome.. but webbing a capital only helps it. While both are technically the only offensive E-war, it's use is very limited. TP is actually the only E-war that is BETTER served on a frigate sized ship (i.e. Hyena), then on the larger platforms like the Huginn and Rapier because of scan resolution.
While I do think that Target Painting modules are a nice module to have as a option. Minmatar E-war as a whole needs to be revamped to make it reasonably effective against all types of ships and no so class specific.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners
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Posted - 2009.01.18 23:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Spaztick You people are silly fitting ACs to a rapier. How are you going to hit interceptors you have webbed and painted?
since that ceptor is going 1k/s still when double webbed your certainly not going to track it too well with artys but at the same time autocannons on a rapier defeat the point in having a 40km web range which is why they need to remove the damage bonus and add a 10% eb effectiveness bonus as i said above. And as a ceptor pilot i dont fear rapiers that much anymore tbh i would be more than willing to have a go at taking one on while before i would have run away asap.
To the guy that mentions webbing not being useful on caps well its bloody hard to hit a carrier thats not webbed with a dread and you actually dont hit for full damage with cit torps on a carrier same goes for normal torps on a BS ect so target painting does still have some use tho tbh that carrier your webbing will mince your rapier with drones.
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.01.19 00:12:00 -
[29]
I'm going to let someone else answer for me on most of these.
Originally by: P'uck Sure, it's not the primary role of the rapier to put a point on something... but... double or even triple webbing people without having them pointed isnt very responsible.
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen ...You dont - your gang does.
Originally by: P'uck And you cant always coordinate that with the "other" tacklers on comms, in fact its very inconvenient. Which means: you bring a point.
And lrn2comm.
Originally by: P'uck So... unless we're talking about sitting in big ass bubbles, you need a point.
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen ...You dont - your gang does.
Seriously, how hard is it to understand that every ship can't do every job?
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.01.19 00:27:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 19/01/2009 00:33:19 delete |
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