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Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:48:00 -
[1]
Just something I've read a few things about and people have said a few things about.
Wondering what the general concensus is with people here in this forum. I'd be thinking along the lines of giving it a bigger drone bay, in line with the other tier 1s and changing it's EWAR bonuses to more out-and-out combat bonuses.
I haven't put alot of thought into it, as you can tell. But there are alot of creative types in this fourm. I read it alot, just not alot of posting.
Thoughts/criticisms/cats/ideas? |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:50:00 -
[2]
i think its stats are fine, but bugger me if it isnt just the most horrible looking item in the whole of eve. |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:53:00 -
[3]
Okay, thanks mate. But by the looks of things, you don't do a huge amount of PVP. More interested in the changes and how they would relate/affect it's use in PVP. |
Super spikinator
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:54:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sir Substance i think its stats are fine, but bugger me if it isnt just the most horrible looking item in the whole of eve.
I believe that honour belongs to the osprey but I always thought of most of the caldari line up. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.01.19 12:33:00 -
[5]
Maybe add both ECM bonuses explicitly to ECM Bursts, so it can be used for close combat and breaking up spider tanks. This would at least give the Scorpion a different niche in ECM than the recon ships, though I am not sure how useful a ECM Burst Battleship would be. |
Nikita Alterana
Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:15:00 -
[6]
well ECM bursts would work good, but the ship would need to be able to survive for them to be effective. It would need to be able to tank or anything with a range of more then 10 km would own its face off __________________________________________________ I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it! I'm also training Minmatar Capitals! And I eat Lions! |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:30:00 -
[7]
Ahhh, kk. ECM burst option. Sorta sounds alright. Maybe a range bonus to it or something? |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Franga Ahhh, kk. ECM burst option. Sorta sounds alright. Maybe a range bonus to it or something?
Also, I still want a bigger drone bay. |
Rordan D'Kherr
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:33:00 -
[9]
I think Scorpion is fine. It is a BS with a particular role. Changing it into a dps gunboat would make it redundant. Scorpion is used rarely and there is no point to make it completely useless. If I want a dps dealer, I choose a Rokh or Raven. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:39:00 -
[10]
Meh. Just found out that you can only activate a single burst at a time. Guess to use those offensively the scorpion would need a role bonus that removes this limit. But without that limit it could stagger a couple bursts, fly into the middle of things, spit torpedoes and fit some minor tank, either shield or armor with three slots. This would at least make the scorpion something terribly annoying to encounter. |
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Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr I think Scorpion is fine. It is a BS with a particular role. Changing it into a dps gunboat would make it redundant. Scorpion is used rarely and there is no point to make it completely useless. If I want a dps dealer, I choose a Rokh or Raven.
It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate. And also, how would it being a damage dealer make it redundant? Your argument is horrible. I look at Amarr and the tier 1, 2 and 3 could all be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at Gallente and the teir 1, 2 and 3 could be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at the Minny and it's the same thing.
Please think more. |
Grigo
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:06:00 -
[12]
scorp is fine |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Grigo scorp is fine
Why? |
Mithfindel
Gallente Zenko Group
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Mithfindel on 19/01/2009 14:10:02
Originally by: Franga It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate. And also, how would it being a damage dealer make it redundant? Your argument is horrible. I look at Amarr and the tier 1, 2 and 3 could all be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at Gallente and the teir 1, 2 and 3 could be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at the Minny and it's the same thing.
Please think more.
In the matter of fact, the Scorpion as it is now fits very well to the Caldari division of guns, missiles and ECM. The Amarr example is very simple, specially now when the Abaddon is the only Amarr T1 ship with a damage bonus (it was supposed to have a ROF bonus). It is the Amarr alpha machine. As evident of the description, the Abaddon is supposed to engage at range (with beams, high alpha). The Armageddon is a short-range platform with pulses and drones, and perhaps a spare utility slot for remote repair, neutralizing or something else. Hence, the three Amarr ships have different roles - Abaddon is the fleet ship (or the bait ship), Apoc is the sniper and the 'geddon is the up, close & personal ship.
Now, Caldari aren't supposed to have much in the way of drones (besides of the carrier/mothership), and they do already have a gunnery battleship and a missile battleship. Their speciality, long range fighting, is quite well complimented with an ECM battleship with a range/jam strength bonus, in other words the Scorpion.
(Noteworthy: ECM bursts aren't really a ranged system. If they had range, you'd likely just jam your own ships.) |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Franga It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate.
Granted I am not directly involved in 0.0 warfare, but I was under the impression it was a popular choice for battleship fleet ECM because it's capable enough and insurable, unlike the FOTM Falcon which is T2. The only other real option would be a Blackbird which doesn't have the necessary range.
Changing the role bonus means that there is no longer a viable battleship ECM platform, or a long-range T1 (and thus affordable/cheap) ECM platform. Why should ECM be hampered in this way? As for the racial argument, the Caldari have long been electronic warfare specialists.
I don't see the justification for the change beyond 'everyone else does it this way' and we hardly need less distinction between the different races. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Franga It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate. And also, how would it being a damage dealer make it redundant? Your argument is horrible. I look at Amarr and the tier 1, 2 and 3 could all be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at Gallente and the teir 1, 2 and 3 could be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at the Minny and it's the same thing.
Please think more.
Erm.. what do you mean by saying "It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate"? You think the Scorpion isn't used for EW? That's so not true. Maybe the Falcon is used even more, yeah. But that's got different reasons. Apart from that why do you want or need 3 out-and-out combat ships? There have actually been numerous threads about Amarr wanting something different in their BS lineup instead of three gunboats. Caldari having an EW battleship is a special flavor, and that's a good thing. Making all the races the same would be boring as hell.
On a side note you can fit the Scorpion for 188k effective hp and almost 600 dps, or 167k eff. hp and over 766 dps, if you relly want. I don't see the use for that, though, since it's EW capabilities are much more useful. |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mithfindel Edited by: Mithfindel on 19/01/2009 14:10:02
Originally by: Franga It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate. And also, how would it being a damage dealer make it redundant? Your argument is horrible. I look at Amarr and the tier 1, 2 and 3 could all be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at Gallente and the teir 1, 2 and 3 could be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at the Minny and it's the same thing.
Please think more.
In the matter of fact, the Scorpion as it is now fits very well to the Caldari division of guns, missiles and ECM. The Amarr example is very simple, specially now when the Abaddon is the only Amarr T1 ship with a damage bonus (it was supposed to have a ROF bonus). It is the Amarr alpha machine. As evident of the description, the Abaddon is supposed to engage at range (with beams, high alpha). The Armageddon is a short-range platform with pulses and drones, and perhaps a spare utility slot for remote repair, neutralizing or something else. Hence, the three Amarr ships have different roles - Abaddon is the fleet ship (or the bait ship), Apoc is the sniper and the 'geddon is the up, close & personal ship.
Now, Caldari aren't supposed to have much in the way of drones (besides of the carrier/mothership), and they do already have a gunnery battleship and a missile battleship. Their speciality, long range fighting, is quite well complimented with an ECM battleship with a range/jam strength bonus, in other words the Scorpion.
(Noteworthy: ECM bursts aren't really a ranged system. If they had range, you'd likely just jam your own ships.)
I present to you the falcon/rook. Do it better, stronger and one has a cov-ops cloak. Please point out to me the recon/HACs that do the BS roles in the other races better? |
Grigo
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Grigo scorp is fine
Why?
it fits its role as a EWAR boat...hase relativly good hp/damage...perfecly balanced bonuses...basicly the big brother of the falcon |
Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.01.19 15:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Mithfindel Edited by: Mithfindel on 19/01/2009 14:10:02
Originally by: Franga It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate. And also, how would it being a damage dealer make it redundant? Your argument is horrible. I look at Amarr and the tier 1, 2 and 3 could all be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at Gallente and the teir 1, 2 and 3 could be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at the Minny and it's the same thing.
Please think more.
In the matter of fact, the Scorpion as it is now fits very well to the Caldari division of guns, missiles and ECM. The Amarr example is very simple, specially now when the Abaddon is the only Amarr T1 ship with a damage bonus (it was supposed to have a ROF bonus). It is the Amarr alpha machine. As evident of the description, the Abaddon is supposed to engage at range (with beams, high alpha). The Armageddon is a short-range platform with pulses and drones, and perhaps a spare utility slot for remote repair, neutralizing or something else. Hence, the three Amarr ships have different roles - Abaddon is the fleet ship (or the bait ship), Apoc is the sniper and the 'geddon is the up, close & personal ship.
Now, Caldari aren't supposed to have much in the way of drones (besides of the carrier/mothership), and they do already have a gunnery battleship and a missile battleship. Their speciality, long range fighting, is quite well complimented with an ECM battleship with a range/jam strength bonus, in other words the Scorpion.
(Noteworthy: ECM bursts aren't really a ranged system. If they had range, you'd likely just jam your own ships.)
I present to you the falcon/rook. Do it better, stronger and one has a cov-ops cloak. Please point out to me the recon/HACs that do the BS roles in the other races better?
Except the falcon/rook take months to train for. A reasonably new player can hop into a scorpion quite quickly, stands a much better chance of escaping if it starts getting shot, and even if he does lose it, he's out the cost of fittings only, which isn't much on an ECM ship. Also, the Falcon/Rook is good for ECM only. They can't surprise their enemy by fitting a 150k EHP buffer plus neuts and a bit of DPS. The scorp is fine. It can be used to great effect as it is. |
Rordan D'Kherr
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Posted - 2009.01.19 16:59:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr I think Scorpion is fine. It is a BS with a particular role. Changing it into a dps gunboat would make it redundant. Scorpion is used rarely and there is no point to make it completely useless. If I want a dps dealer, I choose a Rokh or Raven.
It's hardly ever used for it's role, mate.
Hmm, do we play the same game?
Quote: And also, how would it being a damage dealer make it redundant?
See my post. You want dps? Take a Raven.
Quote: I look at Amarr and the tier 1, 2 and 3 could all be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at Gallente and the teir 1, 2 and 3 could be considered out-and-out combat ships. I look at the Minny and it's the same thing.
Omg look, races are different! Welcome to EVE. Your argument is kinda newbish.
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu
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Posted - 2009.01.19 18:17:00 -
[21]
I agree that the scorpion is fine as is, fit it right and it can take on 2-3 smaller ships by itself because of its particular bonuses.. touch it, and i'll kill you. |
Dhejay Centrix
Caldari The Wailing Doom
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Posted - 2009.01.19 18:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Franga
Also, I still want a bigger drone bay.
Train for Gallente ships?
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.19 18:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dhejay Centrix
Originally by: Franga
Also, I still want a bigger drone bay.
Train for Gallente ships?
haha, so true. Christmas is over, guys
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.19 18:45:00 -
[24]
The Scorpion is a niche ship, like all ECM ships, and unless you want to completely change its role, it should left as is.
It's not an all out, solo pwnmobile, and neither are the Rook, Falcon, Blackbird or Kitsune. It's the only dedicated e-war battleship in game and as such doesn't need overwhelming DPS. It has the same sized drone bay as the Raven and more than the Rokh.
I really like the role a Scorpion can play in a small gang. It has options to tank while throwing out more jams than a Falcon could at a respectable strength and is orders of magnitude less squishy when fit for it. It also soaks up a lot of enemy primary love while receiving remote reps and can really make or break small gang fights that way.
Also, watch some of Gneezsnow's Scorpion videos. It may be unorthodox, but it's one way of doing things.
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Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 22:46:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dhejay Centrix
Originally by: Franga
Also, I still want a bigger drone bay.
Train for Gallente ships?
Ya, done. |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 22:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Irn Bruce Except the falcon/rook take months to train for. A reasonably new player can hop into a scorpion quite quickly, stands a much better chance of escaping if it starts getting shot, and even if he does lose it, he's out the cost of fittings only, which isn't much on an ECM ship. Also, the Falcon/Rook is good for ECM only. They can't surprise their enemy by fitting a 150k EHP buffer plus neuts and a bit of DPS. The scorp is fine. It can be used to great effect as it is.
These are good points. |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 22:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr Scorpion is used rarely and there is no point to make it completely useless.
Pretty sure that's why I was making the thread. Look who's arguments are newbish now. |
Franga
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.19 22:53:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Franga on 19/01/2009 22:53:31
Originally by: Tai Paktu Also, watch some of Gneezsnow's Scorpion videos. It may be unorthodox, but it's one way of doing things.
Ya, love them. I'm assuming you're referring to the Lorpion.
Also thanks for decent comments rather than some idiots that come in and say 'it's fine'.
Good points, like the guy 3 or 4 above this post. I've used it a few times as you've suggested, mainly as a armor buffer tank (as I think you're saying) and as a bait active shield tank before (crystals make it special). Looks like I might be the only one who wants it changed, eh?
EDIT: I honestly did like that ECM burst idea. Might be a bit tricky for empire, however. |
Spartan dax
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.01.20 00:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Abrazzar Maybe add both ECM bonuses explicitly to ECM Bursts, so it can be used for close combat and breaking up spider tanks. This would at least give the Scorpion a different niche in ECM than the recon ships, though I am not sure how useful a ECM Burst Battleship would be.
I belive this is already the case, that the ships bonus affect the ECM burst both in strength as well as optimal. Well, at least it used to.
As for the Scorp... I've toyed with it on numerous occasions for solowork and it always comes up, MEH. For fleets it's quite nice if you can't fly a proper sniper but once that's skilled up there's most of the time no point in flying it.
You could strip the ship of it's optimal bonus and that way confine it to smaller gang sizes but the way ECM works with the need to fit multiple ECM modules as well as SDA's the ship will always be too badly tanked to do anything but come up short.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.20 09:02:00 -
[30]
So you guys want to turn the Scorpion from a range ECM boat into a cloase range damage dealing BS with ECM burst bonus?
:facepalm:
Originally by: Franga Wondering what the general concensus is with people here in this forum.
Do not ask for that and call people idiots who think this BS is good:
Originally by: Franga Also thanks for decent comments rather than some idiots that come in and say 'it's fine'.
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