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Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service F0RCEFUL ENTRY
0
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Posted - 2012.04.18 10:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
For starters, Tech 3 nullified, cloakies. I dont mind one or the other but both together make for an easy way to move about Null sec with a lesser worry. Both for the advanced booster support and the guy who wants to get in and out of null sec through the blockaded entry points. I know I will get burned but saying it nerfs some of the other abilities of the ship is not enough to make it not very viable. I cna also use these so not jealous of people who get such shiney toys just want to not have to watch over multiple systems many of these flying care free whistling all the way.
Second is the Incursion nightmare....... thousands risk free making isk until they cant bloat there faction fit faction ship anymore. Hey I dont mind the concept of how they work but put them in low sec only. Gasps of horror shudder through some, but why, if you can make over 100 mill an hour surely you expect some risk? Granted if you get the fleet set up wrong or someone makes a mistake a ship can be lost but with all the isk being made and the replacement programs and stuff its a grain of sand in a very large desert. Low sec would give niche roles to wanna be Incursion busters as well as fleet protectors alike, giving a larger field for Pvp, a reason to enter low sec for both parties.
Finally, Null sec local, I dont care who I can see in local channel I want to have a little work when hunting and be on my guard when making a bit of isk. Keep me on my toes all the time PvP or PVE, all thats needed is a delay timer to someone showing in local. Anyone entering does not see anything for a minute and likewise the guy who just entered not showing for a minute. If you are actively playing eve which I am sure we all are then the odd check of D scan. All about risk either way for PvP or PVE.
Now all the above will make Eve harder but more fun, I cant be the only player who likes the risk I take in the game the fun of having to play with my wits about me and not on auto pilot most of the time. I like the fact if I screw up I pay for it and dont mind having to think about a way in or out of locations or how I can do something rather than I win (the relevant situation) button.
Anyway all old and no doubt overly spoken about stuff but wanted to feel the heat from the forums or be satisfied there are the odd people out there who like challenges. So give me some views if you so feel. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
161
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Posted - 2012.04.18 11:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Omg I cannot agree anymore on nerfing cloky nullified T3s. I am not sure how that actually got past the "balance team" and how it remains to be overlooked. Yes I kill quite a few cloaky nullified T3s but it is hard work compared to the near absolute immunity that flying them gives you. It just dumps all over bubblers as they are rendered useless.
You should have to pick between cloaky or nullified. Both together means I can jump into literally anything and act like a complete moron and still get away. I didn't believe it was that easy until I fly one for awhile. Then I just started jumping into camps for fun. 20 man camp, easy, 70 man gang, no problem, just warp away.
You will probably get a lot of hate because people love easy mode and rewards without having to use their brain or get some skill at playing the game. |
Nirnias Stirrum
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
80
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Posted - 2012.04.18 11:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cant say iv used nullified cloaky T3's but cant say i like the idea of nerfing them.. Love the other ideas though. |
Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service F0RCEFUL ENTRY
1
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Posted - 2012.04.18 14:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:Cant say iv used nullified cloaky T3's but cant say i like the idea of nerfing them.. Love the other ideas though.
I dont see what the down side would be to changing them to remove the ability to use both. They are the only ship with the nullified capacity and so still carry that as a unique ability so would only be the lose of a covert cloak to make them a little less effective as a safe fly everywhere ship.
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1131
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Posted - 2012.04.18 14:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pychian Vanervi wrote:Nirnias Stirrum wrote:Cant say iv used nullified cloaky T3's but cant say i like the idea of nerfing them.. Love the other ideas though. I dont see what the down side would be to changing them to remove the ability to use both. They are the only ship with the nullified capacity and so still carry that as a unique ability so would only be the lose of a covert cloak to make them a little less effective as a safe fly everywhere ship.
Would you be ok if they loose nullified sub and you, loose bubbles? -it's a tradeoff choice
How and why would nullifying subs be bad for pvp when it's a single ship using it when bubbles stand there for hours and days and ARE a factor why non lazy players don't pass by there thus leading to less pvp 4U uber brains ?
If you want your pvp to become more fun by having more targets it's not by make those 100% victims or else you can also play with yourself a some alts and your deal is done.
If you really want to have more targets and so have more fun is by giving those the tools to escape or need a good team work to get them.
So you think and want uber elite gate/undock pvp to become more static and even more boring. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
614
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Posted - 2012.04.18 14:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
The problem with a T3 null/cloak fit is, it sure reduces in a major way everything else. DPS isn't anything to really fear. Defense isn't earthshaking...cap/power support is almost always required to get those out of marginal. Don't minimize the overall affect. Sure, the guy can get into someplace and poke around. Can't scan. Can't snipe. Actually, can just about only stay alive.
I use one to travel around. I never use one to fight. And, I use a T2 frig for intel missions. I wouldn't trade it, but I sure don't feel uber when I'm flyin' the T3 null/cloak rig. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir. Ineluctable.
10
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Posted - 2012.04.18 15:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't see the problem with Cloak/Nullify T3s.
So you have a 0.0 gate camp at the the crossover point between null and hisec/losec, you have a dozen ships, drag bubbles on the gates, plus interdictors, and a dozen hungry ships waiting for a meal. That isn't PVP unless a large gang comes through, it is just overwhelming destruction.
Now, there is nothing wrong with that of course... but by the same token I do not see why it is a problem that there is ONE suboptimal setup for a very particular ship class, which has extra penalties applied for being destroyed, that would allow a single ship passing through a half-decent chance to escape the death trap you have set.
It sounds to me more like you want a bubble camp that cannot be bypassed by anything other than a large enough gang to break the camp. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
126
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Posted - 2012.04.18 15:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
I don't see the broken or any problem with them. Honestly, a cloaky nulli T3 is expensive, slow and low damage output. Cannot use covert cyno gen. Stop it with the pvp tears, evading pvp is just as much a part of eve as ganking. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
511
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Posted - 2012.04.18 15:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
the only thing remotely worth looking at is local in nullsec. |
Francisco Bizzaro
24
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Posted - 2012.04.18 15:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Yes I kill quite a few cloaky nullified T3s but it is hard work compared to the near absolute immunity that flying them gives you. It just dumps all over bubblers as they are rendered useless. In what sense are bubbles rendered "useless" ? My non-cloaky ships get stuck in them all the time, providing much wealth and/or amusement to bubblers. Or are bubbles another one of those things which are supposed to be easy to use and universally effective before they're considered to be properly balanced? |
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RAP ACTION HERO
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.04.18 15:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Don't HIC bubbles still catch nullified T3s? |
Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir. Ineluctable.
10
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Posted - 2012.04.18 16:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:Don't HIC bubbles still catch nullified T3s?
No, they would have to use the scripted single target point. |
Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service F0RCEFUL ENTRY
1
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Posted - 2012.04.19 08:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:
Would you be ok if they loose nullified sub and you, loose bubbles? -it's a tradeoff choice
How and why would nullifying subs be bad for pvp when it's a single ship using it when bubbles stand there for hours and days and ARE a factor why non lazy players don't pass by there thus leading to less pvp 4U uber brains ?
First off I dont want to remove the nullified sub, keep it use it I am happy with that mechanic in the game to avoid bubbles, its the cloak combo I am on about. So with regards to avoiding bubble camps you still can, you just have to think about escape on the other side.
Quote:If you want your pvp to become more fun by having more targets it's not by make those 100% victims or else you can also play with yourself a some alts and your deal is done.
I dont want 100% victims i want players that have brains that want to think about the game..... witht he nullified cloaked T3 they dont need to think about the game. They think 'I wanna get from A to B in Null lets jump in my 99% unstoppable ship and go!' Little care for any camps at all as nothing will stop them bar a lucky post jump uncloak.
Quote:If you really want to have more targets and so have more fun is by giving those the tools to escape or need a good team work to get them.
So you think and want uber elite gate/undock pvp to become more static and even more boring.
So a good team can catch a cloaked T3, maybe 1 in 100 times you get lucky, I am thinking odds are even lower than that. There should be balance in both avoidance and capture these ships totally remove one method of capture... which is ok if not coupled with the cov cloak which then takes out the rest.
On a side note I am wondering how many who argue for these ships fly them all the time to move high end stuff back and forth from empire to Null. I know I have seen threads where its talked about them being used as blockade runners so there is a niche for them and I bet more people use them than the actual blockade running ships already in game..... why because they can Nullify and cov cloak.
One last thing, if you reply to this thread just tell me if you do fly the ship and what you use it for, as it seems most above its a glorified shuttle! |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Glorious Revolution The 99 Percent
74
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Posted - 2012.04.19 08:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'd prefer nerfing probing and boosting on T3s below that of cov ops and command ships instead of nerfing cloak+nullifier. |
Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir. Ineluctable.
11
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Posted - 2012.04.19 13:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pychian Vanervi wrote: I dont want 100% victims i want players that have brains that want to think about the game..... witht he nullified cloaked T3 they dont need to think about the game. They think 'I wanna get from A to B in Null lets jump in my 99% unstoppable ship and go!' Little care for any camps at all as nothing will stop them bar a lucky post jump uncloak.
You realize that "thinking about the game" covers a broad spectrum of activities, right? So this hypothetical pilot actually thought about and considered that he needed to move through some dangerous nullsec areas where there would likely be camps, and it was neither convenient nor practical to bring a large gang. Thinking about his chances, maybe consulting the maps, seeing traffic and kill patterns, the result of all that thinking about the game is that his best chance was to use a Cloaked and Nullified T3. How does that not qualify as thinking about the game?
As to the value of a Cloaked/Nullified T3 as a glorified shuttle... Maybe he has additional Subs in his cargo hold and once he got into place was going to do some Ninja Ratting or Exploration? Maybe he was getting into an area where he needed a Jump Clone? Maybe he needs to get into position to be part of a Cyno chain?
Whatever his reasons are, he thought about them. Just like the guys camping the entry gates thought about bringing Interdictors or Interceptors, and thought about placing some Drag Bubbles around gates in line with other gates or celestials, and thought about making some bookmarks, and maybe having a scout... You know, all the thinking and preparation that happens before a fight?
Your argument is you want it to be more difficult for T3 Ships to be able to evade gate camps. I do not see what you find so compelling about that argument. One, specialized class of ship is somewhat better than other cloaked ships. Woop-de-doo. I escaped a bubble camp with a Helios the other day, of course it was mostly luck based on where I happened to appear on the camped side relative to the campers and the bubbles. If I was in a cloaked and nullified T3 who landed right next to a fasy locker and not aligned well, i am not sure my chances would have been that much better. |
Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service F0RCEFUL ENTRY
1
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Posted - 2012.04.20 08:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lucas Schuyler wrote:
You realize that "thinking about the game" covers a broad spectrum of activities, right? So this hypothetical pilot actually thought about and considered that he needed to move through some dangerous nullsec areas where there would likely be camps, and it was neither convenient nor practical to bring a large gang. Thinking about his chances, maybe consulting the maps, seeing traffic and kill patterns, the result of all that thinking about the game is that his best chance was to use a Cloaked and Nullified T3. How does that not qualify as thinking about the game?
As to the value of a Cloaked/Nullified T3 as a glorified shuttle... Maybe he has additional Subs in his cargo hold and once he got into place was going to do some Ninja Ratting or Exploration? Maybe he was getting into an area where he needed a Jump Clone? Maybe he needs to get into position to be part of a Cyno chain?
Whatever his reasons are, he thought about them. Just like the guys camping the entry gates thought about bringing Interdictors or Interceptors, and thought about placing some Drag Bubbles around gates in line with other gates or celestials, and thought about making some bookmarks, and maybe having a scout... You know, all the thinking and preparation that happens before a fight?
Your argument is you want it to be more difficult for T3 Ships to be able to evade gate camps. I do not see what you find so compelling about that argument. One, specialized class of ship is somewhat better than other cloaked ships. Woop-de-doo. I escaped a bubble camp with a Helios the other day, of course it was mostly luck based on where I happened to appear on the camped side relative to the campers and the bubbles. If I was in a cloaked and nullified T3 who landed right next to a fasy locker and not aligned well, i am not sure my chances would have been that much better.
I will pick up on the above points first off the thinking part.... the guy wanting to move through null granted they think the first time he wants to do it and low and behold comes to the same conclusion that many do, he sees the claoky Nullified tech 3. So the first trip he has to take he buys one and then laughs at how super effective they are at free movement in any space so any future trips he knows he is pretty much 100% safe bar a fail or unlucky decloak. So in comparison the camper/roam gang/fleet that happens to want to stop this single guy has to think about not only covering bases with possible other targets but making sure they have a fast lock skilled decloaker that most of ther time is ineffective to even stand a chance, which in most cases is not worth the time.
The second point you make about Ninja ratting, Exploration, jump clone or cyno add to that killing ratters or miners, as the ineffective set up he will have will still be effective enough to do that. So he can be a potential thorn to some miner or ratters if he wants to be after getting past a blockade and they can cyno in caps to take out well whatever, as well as a cov ops gang so they can avoid the camps/gangs too.
A lot of what your arguement is based on is the poor lone explorer just plying his trade so nobody should care but the impact one of these ships can have in an area is numerous and how about we talk about maybe 5-10 of these guys doing this then its not such a small issue its a gang moving free where ever they like with gang boost links, probes and dps and tank all built in to every ship if needed. Name one other class of ship that can do this? and this is still not unbalanced?
And to be clear again on this I am not saying it should lose the nullified ability or the cloak ability but I am saying it should only be able to have one or the other. Still making it a pain in the behind to catch be not almost impossible.
I can also assume you use one and I am guessing you have seen them used for all manner of things and want in on that action which is why you are so eager to burn down any idea that they are a little imbalanced. Happy here is you want to tell me you dont use them and only have one to fly in and out of null and not for any other isk making or PvP type stuff?
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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
1435
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Posted - 2012.04.20 08:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Moved from "EVE General Discussion".
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
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Broomide
WISE OUTCASTS Eternal Evocations
7
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Posted - 2012.04.20 12:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hi psy,
I tend to disagree with you on the Nerf t3s.
First of all T3s are supposed to be good. And they did a few things to empathise that imba aura of the t3s. - you loose the ship, you loose Skillpoints
Now if you fit a cloak and the nullifier you are already sacrificing alot. DPS/Speed/Utillity/tank
Case. gate camp. " offensive" 2x dramiel 4x drake
even with a nulified cloakie. you can get it pointed.
....
The reason why i fly a t3 is, that it is capable of doing things no other ship can. If a nerf (another) comes up for the t3 it will get less interesting to even get into one and fly it. And the use/ role of a cloakie nullified t3 will be lost.
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Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir. Ineluctable.
12
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Posted - 2012.04.20 13:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Pychian Vanervi wrote: I can also assume you use one and I am guessing you have seen them used for all manner of things and want in on that action which is why you are so eager to burn down any idea that they are a little imbalanced. Happy here is you want to tell me you dont use them and only have one to fly in and out of null and not for any other isk making or PvP type stuff?
We are kind of dancing around one another, except in your hypothetical version of events the pilot is laughing at gate camps etc.
But first let me address your ad hominem attack
I do have a Tengu, although I rarely use it these days. I mostly fly with it in losec so I really don't get a lot of use out of a nullifier sub. I might potentially use one if I get into Wormholes.
The point you seem to be missing is you haven't explained WHY it should be that nullifier and cloak should be mutually exclusive? To make life a little easier on gate campers? I don't find that compelling and I hope neither does CCP. Gate camping is boring, I have done it on occasion myself. It is a perfectly valid thing to do, but I am not hearing any argument other than your tears, as to why this combo needs to be nerfed.
"I want a better chance at killing a T3 at a gate camp 10 vs 1" is not a compelling argument. It is your personal preference. |
Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service F0RCEFUL ENTRY
1
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Posted - 2012.04.20 14:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Broomide wrote:Hi psy,
I tend to disagree with you on the Nerf t3s.
First of all T3s are supposed to be good. And they did a few things to empathise that imba aura of the t3s. - you loose the ship, you loose Skillpoints
Now if you fit a cloak and the nullifier you are already sacrificing alot. DPS/Speed/Utillity/tank
Case. gate camp. " offensive" 2x dramiel 4x drake
even with a nulified cloakie. you can get it pointed.
....
The reason why i fly a t3 is, that it is capable of doing things no other ship can. If a nerf (another) comes up for the t3 it will get less interesting to even get into one and fly it. And the use/ role of a cloakie nullified t3 will be lost.
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Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service F0RCEFUL ENTRY
1
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Posted - 2012.04.20 14:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lucas Schuyler wrote: The point you seem to be missing is you haven't explained WHY it should be that nullifier and cloak should be mutually exclusive? To make life a little easier on gate campers? I don't find that compelling and I hope neither does CCP. Gate camping is boring, I have done it on occasion myself. It is a perfectly valid thing to do, but I am not hearing any argument other than your tears, as to why this combo needs to be nerfed.
"I want a better chance at killing a T3 at a gate camp 10 vs 1" is not a compelling argument. It is your personal preference.
I will start with the mutually exlusive part, With a cloak it makes it hard to catch near impossible if thought is given to the travel, thats fine but there is a chance with bubbles, both static and ship driven to at least make it a little tricky in some systems to navigate. Add to that the Nullified, you just wiped the chance with bubbles, static AND ship driven to stop them. So now there is no small chance of stopping or catching them it gone to a minute chance. This relates to an offensive and defensive use as well not just a carebear wanting to ship high end gear out of Null or get back in.
So forget gate camp how would a small gang roaming who happens across a T3 with the Null/cloak fit catch it? Bubbles, HIC and Dic dont work as you need to catch them with a hard point to stop them warping off. Decloak them, ok how often will that happen and if it does how often does a roaming fleet have dedicated fast tackle with SB to insta lock? If you can tell me a maybe 1 in 10 chance of a decent small gang being able to catch one of these ships without the T3 making allowances then I will concede that point.
Likewise, we are in a gang with a T3 link booster, he jumps ahead as scout plus boost in every system we want to kill stuff in. He never gets stuck in bubbles, never gets stopped from leaving if odds are too great never has to fear whats on the other side of a gate as 99% of the time its not going to be enough to slow him down. We now have not only eyes in system, we have potential probes we have boosts and if really needed a little extra DPS when the time comes.
As for your quote, I like active PvP and also like to know I am stopping someone playing eve in easy mode and making them think a little, I knwo you dont know me from Adam but I am all for a more entertainign fight its what gets the heart pumping but I also dont like the ships that give Eve an easy mode. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
129
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Posted - 2012.04.20 18:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Broomide wrote:
even with a nulified cloakie. you can get it pointed.
....
The reason why i fly a t3 is, that it is capable of doing things no other ship can. If a nerf (another) comes up for the t3 it will get less interesting to even get into one and fly it. And the use/ role of a cloakie nullified t3 will be lost.
Very true, the only other ship I can do what I use my T3 with is a force recon. Only difference comes down to the interdiction nullifier. That is a triple of price or more for the only gain being able to more easily evade null security exactly, not that it is a hard thing to do with my recons either, difference is warp at angles, and a mwd burst as I cloak. Disadvantage to my t3 is it has zero pvp strength. With my t2 I have some combat advantage. The T3 has pretty much zero pvp usage when fit as such. |
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