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Leaving Eve
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Posted - 2009.01.20 10:47:00 -
[1]
In this post I will try to explain how navel laws of the old Earth affect us in New Eden. Tradition, clearly, did not perish in respect of many of the laws we abide by in empire space. First let us understand some terms. There are four types of naval debris. Flotsam, jetsam, ligan & derelict.
Flotsam Describes floating goods or cargo that have not deliberatly been thrown overboard.
Jetsam Has been voluntarily cast overboard or jetissoned.
Ligan Goods that have been marked by being tied to a buoy so that its owner can find and retrieve it later.
Derelict Derelict is property which has been abandoned and deserted at sea by those who were in charge without any hope of recovering it. This includes vessels and cargo.
Generally speaking, flotsam is the property of the finder, while jetsam remains the property of its original owner. Apply this to a few situations in New Eden:
NPC wrecks : Flotsam. Fair game for salvage. NPC cargos : Jetsam. Cannot steal loot without criminal flag. Anchored GSC: Ligan. Owners only.
NPC wrecks were never yours to begin with, so for someone else to salvage them is legal. Now I will expose a flaw in the current salvage / loot system....
If you PvP and you get popped, your loot belongs to you. If anybody takes it, they will generally be criminally flagged to you. So why then if somebody takes from an NPC wreck are they criminally flagged to you?
To conclude, I propose that to keep with naval tradition of old, criminal flagging is removed from NPC wrecks completely. They never 'belonged' to the person that shot them in the first place. |
Gieron
Middleton and Mercer LLP Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.01.20 11:10:00 -
[2]
Can I have your stuff. Since you are Leaving Eve. (Bet you never heard that one before.)
But to be on topic, your reasoning makes sense.
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Animka
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.20 11:17:00 -
[3]
I heard, what there is no criminal flagging if you loot wrecks of NPC¦s killed by yourself. But that may be just a rumour... |
Alternate Poster
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Posted - 2009.01.20 11:19:00 -
[4]
"Navel laws of old Earth"?
You mean staying clean of lint? Or you want to salvage it? |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.20 11:22:00 -
[5]
The flagging of wrecks (jetcans, back in the day, but the system was transfered to wrecks when they were introduced) only started when miners complained about people stealing their ore and their need to retaliate. Of course, we know how well that turned out to work, with return fire on an ore stealer being one of the stupidest things you can actually do.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.01.20 11:23:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/01/2009 11:22:52
Originally by: Alternate Poster "Navel laws of old Earth"?
You mean staying clean of lint? Or you want to salvage it?
If someone else tried to salvage my lint, id' surely "flag" them |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.20 11:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T The flagging of wrecks (jetcans, back in the day, but the system was transfered to wrecks when they were introduced) only started when miners complained about people stealing their ore and their need to retaliate. Of course, we know how well that turned out to work, with return fire on an ore stealer being one of the stupidest things you can actually do.
Originally by: Leaving Eve
In this post I will try to explain how naval laws of the old Earth affect us in New Eden. ....
Jetsam Has been voluntarily cast overboard or jetissoned.
Generally speaking, flotsam is the property of the finder, while jetsam remains the property of its original owner. Apply this to a few situations in New Eden:
NPC wrecks : Flotsam. Fair game for salvage. NPC cargos : Jetsam. Cannot steal loot without criminal flag.
Note that by the OP logic jetcans are jetsam, so the whole "throw away stuff" argument is wrong and the flagging of people stealing from jetcans ir right and a law violation.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.01.20 11:36:00 -
[8]
I always wanted to have all wreck/can ownership removed. It'd add more competition, more reasons to wardec. Though we'd need means to properly aggress people in NPC corps.
Maybe just give everybody entering a mission deadspace (with the acc. gate activation as deciding event) a criminal flag.
And add a bounty system which allows trading of aggression rights, killrights and podding rights.
And add a combat contract system that allows to properly define conditions for bounties, mercenary work, war victory conditions, peace treaties, etc.
Oh my, I'm drifting off... |
Cat o'Ninetails
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Posted - 2009.01.20 12:04:00 -
[9]
I agree with this because as when i was getting some loot from asteroid belts someone destroyded my ship |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.01.20 12:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Akita T The flagging of wrecks (jetcans, back in the day, but the system was transfered to wrecks when they were introduced) only started when miners complained about people stealing their ore and their need to retaliate. Of course, we know how well that turned out to work, with return fire on an ore stealer being one of the stupidest things you can actually do.
That was a great way of making a living.
With just a few thousand k of skillpoints and the refusal to become a carebear/mine it was great to steal ore and do bookmark scams, while doing your combat training. It was impossible to run missions with that little sp as well.
Makes less sense now tho that it only takes a couple of weeks to get into level 4's, and the wreck introduction made more sense than the old system. |
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the Entity
testicular Fortitude Sherwood Forest
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Posted - 2009.01.20 12:35:00 -
[11]
ive got cheese for the OP- it even matches his mood-BLUE AND OLD!!
sorry u cant accept the harsh universe
Originally by: Acama Asante so clearly this thread is my punishment but what was my crime I wonder
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fatherted1989
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.20 12:45:00 -
[12]
Someones been watching QI
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jam6549
Cold Blooded Killers
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Posted - 2009.01.20 13:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: fatherted1989 Someones been watching QI
Flotsam & Jetsom reminded me of a chapter in the Lord of the Rings? |
Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.01.20 13:45:00 -
[14]
There's promise in this post. It's not obvious at first, but it's there...
Quote: Flotsam Describes floating goods or cargo that have not deliberatly been thrown overboard.
Jetsam Has been voluntarily cast overboard or jetissoned.
Ligan Goods that have been marked by being tied to a buoy so that its owner can find and retrieve it later.
Derelict Derelict is property which has been abandoned and deserted at sea by those who were in charge without any hope of recovering it. This includes vessels and cargo.
These terms could apply perfectly to the current mechanics with only minor changes. For example:
NPC Wreck: Flotsam NPC Can, unflagged: Flotsam NPC Can, flagged: Ligan Player Wreck: Flotsam Player Can, unflagged: Jetsam or Flotsam Player Can, flagged: Ligan
Simply put this allows the game mechanics to be very very clear on who owns what, and forces a playstyle regarding mission running and pvp looting. The important mechanic here is "flagging" your can, which in effect is simply an extra item added to the right click menu of a can, allowing you to "claim" that can as Ligan and not Flotsam or Jetsam. If you don't flag it as Ligan, nobody would get aggro for taking it. To summarise:
Flotsam: No GCC, no specific owner Jetsam: No GCC, specific owner (kill rights) Ligan: GCC, specific owner (kill rights)
Now I know what some of you are thinking: jet can miners rejoice, those can flippers will be flagged as a global criminal! However it's not that simple. The Ligan flag should have a timer on it, so that miners working in tandem can work together on filling a single can, but the lone miner would take too long to fill the can and as such the Ligan flag would expire, returning the can to Jetsam status.
The key component here is that claiming of a can must be done to get the other person flagged as hostile, and to do this in mission running first you must salvage the wreck, and then you must claim the remaining can as yours. You then have (for the sake of this discussion I'll make up a figure) 15 minutes to return and loot the can before it returns to flotsam status.
That, or maybe I should put the crack pipe down.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2009.01.20 15:41:00 -
[15]
dread⋅nought /ˈdrɛdˌnɔt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dred-nawt] Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun 1. a type of battleship armed with heavy-caliber guns in turrets: so called from the British battleship Dreadnought, launched in 1906, the first of its type.
Because the actual definition of a dreadnought states that it is just a battleship, I demand that all dreadnoughts be allowed to use jumpgates and enter highsec.
Game balance > Dictionary definitions. Period. A definition of a word from a source outside of the eve website/game should NEVER be used as an argument to change game mechanics, because it has absolutely nothing to do with eve. |
Leaving Eve
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Posted - 2009.01.20 16:46:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cambarus Game balance > Dictionary definitions. Period. A definition of a word from a source outside of the eve website/game should NEVER be used as an argument to change game mechanics, because it has absolutely nothing to do with eve.
I can play the gameplay angle too. Allow me to quote a dev...
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
The loot in a mission rat has never entered your cargo hold or hangar. My whole point is why is stealing this loot illegal / get you flagged? |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2009.01.21 05:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Leaving Eve
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
The loot in a mission rat has never entered your cargo hold or hangar. My whole point is why is stealing this loot illegal / get you flagged?
An amusing quote, but it has nothing to do with what you're arguing. Read it again, closely this time. I'll even bold the important part for you.
Quote: Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
The dev here made a point of specifying the server code. Now I could sit here and argue that rather then making an argument for salvaging, he was stating the facts of how eve works (regardless of his intentions), but it would be much easier to just point out that the server code considers rat droppings () to belong to the player who killed the rat. Ergo your quote is actually supporting my argument and not yours. Trying to quote a dev who cites as an argument that 'it's just the way the server works' isn't really going to provide any proof that the way the servers work should be changed. |
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