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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.25 09:52:00 -
[1]
Today I had a rather amusing, if completely pointless engagement.
Us: couple BS, couple BCs, HIC for tackle, Thanatos for laughs and a Falcon for emergencies camping a high sec gate in a low sec system.
Them: 14-16+ in gang (lost count), notables: 3x Falcons, 8+ BS, 2x logistics, misc. support.
Why Falcons suck: nobody could kill anyone. At all. Our goofball carrier pilot ended up getting tackled at the gate and we had to rescue him, requiring us to undock an additional two carriers and log in an additional Falcon (we were still down one Falcon). Our carriers had 2+ ECCM fitted *EACH*: approximately 273 sensor strength per carrier. We still got jammed. A lot. From 200+ Km away.
Nobody lost anything. On either side. They all deagressed and jumped to high sec after their Falcons jammed all of our guys solid and they made it back into jump range after our webs were removed, and our Falcons jammed their guys well enough that we all just stopped shooting at each other and finally warped out.
What fun is it when everyone is jammed solid? Even carriers with insane sensor strength? We both had Falcons, we both used them. But Falcons just aren't fun. At least a Scorpion can be dealt with (they had one of those as well, lol). I'd gladly give up my Falcons if I knew the enemy couldn't use them either.
There was nothing wrong with them when they had the jam strength of a Blackbird. They still jammed people very well, but weren't as powerful as a full on Rook or Scorpion. Now they're just ridiculous. The other day I was looking at some of my corpmate's loss mails and was shaking my head at the three or FOUR Falcons on each loss mail. It's ridiculous.
I'd like to hear a really solid argument for why the above types of fights are *fun* and a *good thing* for Eve PVP. Where everyone brings loads of Falcons and everyone is jammed and everyone goes home with nothing more than wasted ammo and a few popped drones to show for it. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.25 09:56:00 -
[2]
What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW? |
Silent Ceremony
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Posted - 2009.01.25 09:56:00 -
[3]
:facepalm:
because some people bring out ships that can kill falcons instead of more falcons these people then have fun fights
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Rifter Drifter
Minmatar You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2009.01.25 09:57:00 -
[4]
french people are embarrasingly annoying and **** at life |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:03:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 25/01/2009 10:04:54
Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW?
You mean besides three carriers with over 270 sensor strength and the lock range to sic fighters on the Falcons? That kind of counter?
If Falcon pilots actually know what they're doing, the best you can hope for is to simply make them leave, not actually kill any of them. And they didn't have to keep everyone in my gang jammed 100%, just long enough for their gang mates to mwd back to the gate and get ready to jump out. |
Silent Ceremony
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Silent Ceremony on 25/01/2009 10:03:40
Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW?
why they just have more falcons, then they wonder why they can't kill anything
edit: ah yes, eccm'ed-up carriers, that should do it
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Hamoycal Karyst
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:11:00 -
[7]
agreed this happen everyday always, 'couse everyday more pilots skill for the falcon
the arazu was nerfed to death to avoid this situations, now... give the arazu back or fix the damn falcon! |
Stitcher
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:12:00 -
[8]
Falcons = NO damage output. None. Nada.
They also = no tank. At all.
They're somewhat prolific, I grant you, which can make fights a little dull, but I remember one of the most fun fights I was ever in resulted in neither side actually killing anything. Admittedly because we were trying to kill a pair of carriers that had h-dictor support inside dock range of a station, but still... there were falcons and it was still a fun fight. |
Jalif
Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:14:00 -
[9]
Falcons why you shouldn't use them.
1) See Above 2) People will rather igore you if they can't counter the falcon = you don't get anybody to kill 3) People will BLOB BLOB you just to counter the effect of falcons. If falcon jams 4 people they will bring 4 more people to counter it. Meaning: You don't get a fight because you will leave the battle scene 4) People will bring more falcons which is basicly point 3 which leads to point 1.
Welcome to ****ED UP EVE with a ****ED UP COMMUNITY |
Research Rachel
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:15:00 -
[10]
seriously, the whining is getting boring about falcons now.
I'm a falcon pilot, i know how many jams i get on a carrier and i can tell you it's not a lot, even before someone fits ECCM.
I'm starting to think you noobs get jammed once then don't bother relocking and come here to whine.
Next time fit the BS's with ECCM, ACTVIATE IT when you undock then try, if you get jammed then keep clicking the lock button and hey look, we can lock again |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:22:00 -
[11]
Incidentally, I might have had some sympathy for the "where's the fun" argument had it not been for this thread. I tried and tried to elicit a "fun" EW to replace "not fun" ECM, but all I got was the same old copypasta doublethink and dishonesty.
ECM whiners - that's you Bellum, because your post is a whine - don't want ECM to be fun. You just want it to suck enough to be able to ignore it.
Candidly, I'm disappointed in you. I'd have thought that you of all people would know that whining for nerfs is at best lame and at worst, counter-productive. You know damb well that EvE NEEDS effective EW. You know damb well that at the moment, ECM is the only counter to spidertanking. You know damb well that ECM was an effective counter to nanoships, and a prime reason why nano didn't need nerfing as savagely as it was.
I, as an ECM pilot, argued strongly on that point by the way. I opposed that nerf on the grounds that - although it took some SP, some skill, some organisation - nanoships could be dealt with.
Well the whiners won that one, and look what happened to your beloved baster ships as a collateral consequence. And now, what? because opposing ECM ships takes some skill, some SP, some organisation, you're stringing us out to dry, regardless of the obvious, repeatedly demonstrated consequences? Why aren't you asking for stealthbombers and gallante EW ships to be fixed so that they can counter falcons as they should be doing? Why aren't you supporting proposals like giving Logistics ships an ECCM range bonus?
You're as bad as stabwounds. Quit DoV and join the Caldari FW militia, because that's where you belong. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 25/01/2009 10:04:54
Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW?
You mean besides three carriers with over 270 sensor strength and the lock range to sic fighters on the Falcons? That kind of counter?
If Falcon pilots actually know what they're doing, the best you can hope for is to simply make them leave, not actually kill any of them. And they didn't have to keep everyone in my gang jammed 100%, just long enough for their gang mates to mwd back to the gate and get ready to jump out.
No, I mean like ECCM tachypocs, ECCM cerbs, scorpions, Arazus. |
Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Research Rachel seriously, the whining is getting boring about falcons now.
I'm a falcon pilot, i know how many jams i get on a carrier and i can tell you it's not a lot, even before someone fits ECCM.
I'm starting to think you noobs get jammed once then don't bother relocking and come here to whine.
Next time fit the BS's with ECCM, ACTVIATE IT when you undock then try, if you get jammed then keep clicking the lock button and hey look, we can lock again
I think the main problem with ecm is : that everyone expects to see falcons when theres combat, that nearly everyone has to fit an ECCM when possible just to counter ONE spaceship specificly in the game. (only cause we see falcons alot me than most other ecm ships)
no other ship in eve creates such a mass amount of complaining, that they have to fit a countermeasure just to 'help' prevent it _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:31:00 -
[14]
No worries, let's just all train for Falcons and fly them to get them nerfed.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Malcanis <snipped for space>
You're as bad as stabwounds. Quit DoV and join the Caldari FW militia, because that's where you belong.
I'm not saying that we don't need ECM. I'm saying that Falcons are not fun for PVP. Frankly I don't have much of a problem with Rooks or Scorpions or Blackbirds. You can see them coming, you can prepare for them and they're easier to fight.
But how many other ECM ships do you need (types that is) when the Falcon trumps them all? Just as good range as any ECM ship, same strength, same effectiveness, and oh look, it can cloak.
The Falcon makes everything redundant.
I agree with your thread that we need to replace the current ECM system with something else. What, I don't know. Quite frankly I think it needs to be something entirely different than what it is now. Breaking your lock means that you completely remove 100% of that ships' capability to contribute anything to a fight, save be a paperweight or bump someone.
Increasing ECCM won't help much. Not if the ECM formula allows for a ship with 270+ sensor strength to be jammed.
ECM needs to have stacking effects that diminish the effects of multiple ECM applied to a single target, and there needs to be a jamming threshold where by if a ship has say 200% more sensor strength than the ECM applied to it, then it's simply unable to be jammed, at all. Additionally, ECM's cycle time and cool down time need to be asymmetric, that is the time that an ECM jams it's target needs to be shorter than it's cool down time, so that it takes multiple overlapping jams to get a target completely out of the fight.
Arazus aren't overpowered because one of them can *maybe* only remove one, possibly two ships from a fight. A Falcon has the potential to completely stop 4-5 ships at a time from doing *anything*. At least a damped ship can remote rep his buddies.
As for RR gangs: yes, they need to be nerfed, and hard. Put stacking penalties on remote reps: for every one applied, you get less of a benefit, with the fourth remote rep you only get 7% effectiveness, and zero with the fourth.
CCP has already built far too much capability into large blobs as it is, and they have really screwed up how combat scales from small to large groups. They need to introduce more ship classes that allow for more tiers of ships so that each tier can be tailored for a different type of combat (small, medium, large).
CCP has slapped stacking penalties on everything else, why not ECM and RR?
p.s.
If you really think that I was sincere when I said that the OP 'isn't a whine', well.... . I just do that to get a rise out of people. Whad'da ya know? It works.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.25 10:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 25/01/2009 10:04:54
Originally by: Malcanis What ships did you have fitted to counter long range EW?
You mean besides three carriers with over 270 sensor strength and the lock range to sic fighters on the Falcons? That kind of counter?
If Falcon pilots actually know what they're doing, the best you can hope for is to simply make them leave, not actually kill any of them. And they didn't have to keep everyone in my gang jammed 100%, just long enough for their gang mates to mwd back to the gate and get ready to jump out.
No, I mean like ECCM tachypocs, ECCM cerbs, scorpions, Arazus.
p.p.s.
If the Falcon wasn't so friggin good, maybe we'd see more use of TDs, Damps and TPs, because not that they aren't good, but just because they're a poor second option when you can have the same person in a Falcon? |
thesonarnet
Gallente DEFCON. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.01.25 11:05:00 -
[17]
Falcons are for "bobos", real men fly Gallente!
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.25 11:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Silent Ceremony :facepalm:
because some people bring out ships that can kill falcons instead of more falcons these people then have fun fights
Because Falcons tend to be more effective counters to Falcons than specific Falcon killer ships in small gangs.
People bring what works best. That is why we got the whole nano-thing spreading like a plague across EVE before the QR changes. Speed was best countered with more speed. Falcons are best countered with more Falcons. |
Gneeznow
Minmatar Goo Spew
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Posted - 2009.01.25 11:27:00 -
[19]
haha they moved your thread to warfare and tactics! |
Xol'tan
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.01.25 11:33:00 -
[20]
CCP should make ECM scripts so you get to use weak half power ECM and 150+km or use full power ECM at 40-km, this would go some way towards bringing them inline with damps and tracking disruptors, you could still jam up a frigate gang at 150km and save your mate whos tackled but will no longer jam half a BS gang from half way across the solor system.
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.25 11:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Research Rachel seriously, the whining is getting boring about falcons now.
I'm a falcon pilot, i know how many jams i get on a carrier and i can tell you it's not a lot, even before someone fits ECCM.
TBH This. I've jammed (and tried to jam) Capital ships before and sometimes it works well (sometimes even very well) but other times I found myself waist deep in the brown stuff because things were working as intended ...
Originally by: Malcanis Stuff
TBH This too, though looking at the post you linked I do disagree slightly: Personally, I greatly enjoy my focus in PvP being that I attempt to either knock out a select few opponents for as long as possible OR that I cycle my jamming attempts across as much of the opposition as I can to reduce their effectiveness as best I can by breaking whatever locks they have, temporarily. At the same time I have to remain very aware of what is going on around me otherwise I'm very quickly reminded that my ECM and my distance was my tanking.
Originally by: Bellum Eternus If the Falcon wasn't so friggin good, maybe we'd see more use of TDs, Damps and TPs, because not that they aren't good, but just because they're a poor second option when you can have the same person in a Falcon?
Except that those are all pretty much crap now, even if you do nerf the Falcon. You can't have one without the other unless you want to completely trash electronic warfare altogether in favor of a focus on bigger guns v.s. bigger tanks in PvP.
Granted, the RSD isn't found on practically every PvP fitting anymore but unfortunately to achieve that change, CCP also killed the Tracking Disruptor too - the Target Painter having already been a little bit rubbish compared to the others to begin with. A complete set of tactics were essentially almost vanquished when Scripts were introduced to those modules in favor of the bigger guns and bigger tanks approach to PvP - force multipliers shelved in favor of additive thinking isn't going to reduce blob sizes, CCP ...
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Julius Rigel
House Rigel
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Posted - 2009.01.25 12:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus not fun PVP
PVP is serious business. If you're having fun you're doing it wrong.
... or flying a Falcon. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.25 13:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gneeznow haha they moved your thread to warfare and tactics!
I know! I think they hate me.
Meh. It's been sent to die next to all the other Falcon whine threads.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Monotard
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Posted - 2009.01.25 13:15:00 -
[24]
Nerfing Falcons would be bad for business. Think of all those people who have a Falcon Alt. Like, everybody and his Mum has a Falcon or the new FOTM neutral Logistics alt.
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BuckStrider
Fleem Co
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Posted - 2009.01.25 15:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: BuckStrider on 25/01/2009 15:14:49 Posting in yet another fail 'nerf ecm' whine thread.
And really?...You use carriers for gatecamps?...What system is this again?
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Soporo
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.25 19:02:00 -
[26]
Didnt CCP in their infinite wisdom BOOST Falcons since their first inception? Added range I believe. Who's the genius that did that and what tf were his reasons is what I want to know. |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.01.25 20:51:00 -
[27]
They also boosted ecm jammer strength from 15%/lvl to 20%/lvl recently if I'm not mistaken.
Good luck crying for a nerf |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: BuckStrider Edited by: BuckStrider on 25/01/2009 15:14:49 Posting in yet another fail 'nerf ecm' whine thread.
And really?...You use carriers for gatecamps?...What system is this again?
No, not usually... guy was being a goofball and doing it just to be silly.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Shigsy
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:53:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Shigsy on 25/01/2009 23:53:26 Delete ecm, makes this game **** boring.
edit: i have maxed out falcon alt and i honestly wouldn't give two ****s if they nerfed it to hell and back. In fact, i'd love it
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Akiba Penrose
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I'd like to hear a really solid argument for why the above types of fights are *fun* and a *good thing* for Eve PVP. Where everyone brings loads of Falcons and everyone is jammed and everyone goes home with nothing more than wasted ammo and a few popped drones to show for it.
Yes, I'v yet to hear any argument that would somewhat explain why it a good thing having Falcons/ECM as it currently is.
Hammerhead said that they use forum feedback as a tool for game balance, maybe it would be more constructive if they participated a little.
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