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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
228
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Posted - 2012.04.19 16:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here is a thought.
Make a turtle.
Make a mining drone ship. No turret slots, no launcher hardpoints.
Make it so tough, that anyone trying to solo gank one is recommended to take a drug test afterwards. (Think Marauder level defenses)
Now, have it rely exclusively on mining drones. It can fit 10 total in it's drone bay, and control 5 in space.
Give it bonuses so these 5 drones can collectively perform at a level between the Covetor and the Hulk.
Now, gankers can eat these drones, sure... but the ship can get away. It can fit a tank they can't get through, if it wants. (again, Marauder levels, but focusing on defense... a fleet could eat one, but not a solo ship very well)
Worried about bots? The ganking clans can still show up and clip those drones to ribbons. Bots don't mine much if there are no drones to supply them, and a smartbombing vessel can instapop them.
TL:DR Gankers can stop it from working, but it is likely to survive the encounter |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1271
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Posted - 2012.04.19 16:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
It already exists. It's called a Carrier. It can get Covie-level mining yields and has some epic tank for a mining ship (SCs used to be able to get the best yield in the game before the drone bay got turned into fighter/FB-only).
Or you could just get a Rokh or other mining BS, they're also stupidly annoying for someone to try to gank.
There's no need to add the ship that you've suggested to the game, there's no hole for it to fill. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
228
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 16:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
mxzf wrote:It already exists. It's called a Carrier. It can get Covie-level mining yields and has some epic tank for a mining ship (SCs used to be able to get the best yield in the game before the drone bay got turned into fighter/FB-only).
Or you could just get a Rokh or other mining BS, they're also stupidly annoying for someone to try to gank.
There's no need to add the ship that you've suggested to the game, there's no hole for it to fill. Lovely.
Now explain how we get one of these mining drone carriers into High-Sec, where the ganking is an issue.
A rokh? If it doesn't have a yield in the range needed, between the Covetor and the Hulk, then it is not viable. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1271
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Posted - 2012.04.19 17:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Actually, a Rokh can get a perfectly decent yield 1300m3-ish with 65k EHP. If you're worried about ganking, then the small loss in yield is easily worth having 10x the EHP. It's a tradeoff, as with most things in Eve. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
229
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 20:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Actually, a Rokh can get a perfectly decent yield 1300m3-ish with 65k EHP. If you're worried about ganking, then the small loss in yield is easily worth having 10x the EHP. It's a tradeoff, as with most things in Eve. That's not terrible, but for a serious miner it could become a non starter.
Figure, using estimates based on: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_mining
Rokh hourly output: 84,000 units of Omber
Covetor hourly output: 101,880 units of Omber
Hulk hourly output: 181,920 units of Omber
We would want serious miners, with proper fleet support, to never stray from the Hulk's standards. (Till the day CCP decides they need something better)
This would be a serious mining ship.
Using T2 mining drones, a set of 5 with minimal travel delay can mine 31,200 per hour. This travel time has the mother vessel parked on top of the asteroid, (within 1km), however, not aligned for safe exit, or between multiple asteroids doing several at once. It also presumes skills Mining Drone Operations at 5, and Drone Interfacing at 5.
I would suggest the ship to have a skill, Mining Drone Ship, each skill level to give a 100% increase in drone yield.
For reference, this means IF you have: Mining Drone Operations at 5 Drone Interfacing at 5 Mining Drone Ship at 5 AND the ship within 1Km of the asteroid (That could kill the mining rate for people who forget to park on top of the roid....)
Your output would be, (in Omber), 156,000 an hour.
Not as good as the Hulk, certainly more skill intensive, and you get to be safer. |
Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2012.04.19 21:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:mxzf wrote:Actually, a Rokh can get a perfectly decent yield 1300m3-ish with 65k EHP. If you're worried about ganking, then the small loss in yield is easily worth having 10x the EHP. It's a tradeoff, as with most things in Eve. That's not terrible, but for a serious miner it could become a non starter. Figure, using estimates based on: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_miningRokh hourly output: 84,000 units of Omber Covetor hourly output: 101,880 units of Omber Hulk hourly output: 181,920 units of Omber We would want serious miners, with proper fleet support, to never stray from the Hulk's standards. (Till the day CCP decides they need something better) This would be a serious mining ship. Using T2 mining drones, a set of 5 with minimal travel delay can mine 31,200 per hour. This travel time has the mother vessel parked on top of the asteroid, ( within 1km), however, not aligned for safe exit, or between multiple asteroids doing several at once. It also presumes skills Mining Drone Operations at 5, and Drone Interfacing at 5. I would suggest the ship to have a skill, Mining Drone Ship, each skill level to give a 100% increase in drone yield. For reference, this means IF you have: Mining Drone Operations at 5 Drone Interfacing at 5 Mining Drone Ship at 5 AND the ship within 1Km of the asteroid(That could kill the mining rate for people who forget to park on top of the roid....) Your output would be, (in Omber), 156,000 an hour. Not as good as the Hulk, certainly more skill intensive, and you get to be safer. You are not using the boosted figures, I see.
I read further down in that article, and they gave an example of a pilot boosted, and the same hulk suddenly mines 234,720 Omber per hour. That is a 25% increase, roughly.
It is unclear to me if this will buff up the drones too, but I read that a rig 'Drone Mining Augmentator' would boost results some.
Never used the lil drones that much, so I dunno more on that. |
Byrrssa Crendraven
Shadow Knight Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.04.19 23:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
I like your idea...but,...what if we eliminated the drones??? And just went with a high output mining laser that would only reach a short distance...such as...2km. Even call it the turtle or something because it has to actually sit on the asteroid to be able to use it's lasers. |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
177
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 03:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
I really like this idea.
20% drone mining yield and drone flying speed per level 1 additional mining drone per level
As a mining vessel, you can't really bot or afk mine with it, because even high-sec pirates will wipe out the drones. |
leviticus ander
CATO.nss
145
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 06:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:I really like this idea.
20% drone mining yield and drone flying speed per level 1 additional mining drone per level
As a mining vessel, you can't really bot or afk mine with it, because even high-sec pirates will wipe out the drones. doing a little quick math, that would end up giving only about 650M3 per minute taking into account the ship skill being 5 and mining drone operation to 5. so unless there is some other skill that effects them (I have a feeling that I'm missing one or 2) that would be a somewhat weak mining amount considering other options. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
219
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 11:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
leviticus ander wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:I really like this idea.
20% drone mining yield and drone flying speed per level 1 additional mining drone per level
As a mining vessel, you can't really bot or afk mine with it, because even high-sec pirates will wipe out the drones. doing a little quick math, that would end up giving only about 650M3 per minute taking into account the ship skill being 5 and mining drone operation to 5. so unless there is some other skill that effects them (I have a feeling that I'm missing one or 2) that would be a somewhat weak mining amount considering other options.
You forgot rigs.
[Vexor, Mining] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
[empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Drone Mining Augmentor II Medium Drone Mining Augmentor II Medium Drone Mining Augmentor I
Harvester Mining Drone x5
773 yield and thats with only a 10% bonus. |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
233
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Yeah, this definitely needs to have it's 'ideal' output high enough to justify using it instead of a tanked BS.
If pilots don't want to use barges or exhumers to mine with, that class of ships becomes fail in game design.
That's why I suggested, (in Omber), 156,000 an hour.
Now, this needs the pilot to use all 5 drones AND Mining Drone Operations at 5 AND Drone Interfacing at 5 AND Mining Drone Ship at 5 AND the ship within 1Km of the asteroid
Which means, if they do all the above, they can mine with less efficiency than an unboosted Hulk.
BUT, since it is safer, and better than a Covetor's output, it could be a popular choice.
As you can see from the requirement's above, however, it will NOT be easier. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
233
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Byrrssa Crendraven wrote:I like your idea...but,...what if we eliminated the drones??? And just went with a high output mining laser that would only reach a short distance...such as...2km. Even call it the turtle or something because it has to actually sit on the asteroid to be able to use it's lasers. In a word, Bots.
The drones create a specific, limited, vulnerability that places a greater burden on automated play. A live player can call up help, or go to a station or outpost to reload drones.
A bot would find the additional programming needed for these extra steps painful, and known bots could be easily haunted by those now more able to put a crimp in their mining day.
Remember, to the botter they need to not just survive, but be productive. |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
177
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
leviticus ander wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:I really like this idea.
20% drone mining yield and drone flying speed per level 1 additional mining drone per level
As a mining vessel, you can't really bot or afk mine with it, because even high-sec pirates will wipe out the drones. doing a little quick math, that would end up giving only about 650M3 per minute taking into account the ship skill being 5 and mining drone operation to 5. so unless there is some other skill that effects them (I have a feeling that I'm missing one or 2) that would be a somewhat weak mining amount considering other options.
You're missing Drone Interfacing V (+20% to drone mining yield per level) which would double the number to 1300m^3. Mix in the rigs and you're up to 1546m3.
This ship would be the equivalent of using 40 mining drones.
((5 base drones + 1 Drone/Level) * (1 + (20% Drone Interfacing/Level)) * (1 + (20% Drone Yield/Level))
It seems like a lot, but remember that mining drones are paper thin and really slow. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Here is a thought.
Make a turtle.
Make a mining drone ship. No turret slots, no launcher hardpoints.
Make it so tough, that anyone trying to solo gank one is recommended to take a drug test afterwards. (Think Marauder level defenses)
lol
I like that you are thinking outside the box.. I haven't really heard this idea layed out this way. but you do know it will never be "ungankable".. orcas are a challenge; gankers still manage to take the out from time to time.
what is the niche for this miner? I mean is there a need for a drone only miner? I guess it would give carrier pilots some thing cheap to mine in that would not require them to learn all the T2 crystal loading strippers skills. Not saying this is a bad idea.. just that what we really need is improved mack tanking ability..and a gas harvesting ship. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
233
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Here is a thought.
Make a turtle.
Make a mining drone ship. No turret slots, no launcher hardpoints.
Make it so tough, that anyone trying to solo gank one is recommended to take a drug test afterwards. (Think Marauder level defenses) lol I like that you are thinking outside the box.. I haven't really heard this idea layed out this way. but you do know it will never be "ungankable".. orcas are a challenge; gankers still manage to take the out from time to time. what is the niche for this miner? I mean is there a need for a drone only miner? I guess it would give carrier pilots some thing cheap to mine in that would not require them to learn all the T2 crystal loading strippers skills. Not saying this is a bad idea.. just that what we really need is improved mack tanking ability..and a gas harvesting ship. Hulks are popular mining ships, but they are not safe without support, or at least compromising their fittings for defensive rather than mining efficiency.
Get a proper mining fleet, and they rule. Ultimate mining ships, without peer. Fleets will always want the Hulks.
Go solo, and they are a bad idea, and notorious for being gank targets.
In areas where you cannot rely on fleet support, or when you are solo and don't want to stare at your captains quarters, this gives you lower risk for lower reward, but more effort and skill requirements as a tax. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
119
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Why not go simpler and declare certain battleships to have a mining role and assign them appropriate bonuses? Give the Armageddon and Dominix 10%/level drone mining bonus. Give the Scorpion and Typhoon 20%/level mining laser bonus.
I realize this doesn't give all the benefits of your idea, but it does acknowledge the gap and provide reasonable filler. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
leviticus ander wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:I really like this idea.
20% drone mining yield and drone flying speed per level 1 additional mining drone per level
As a mining vessel, you can't really bot or afk mine with it, because even high-sec pirates will wipe out the drones. doing a little quick math, that would end up giving only about 650M3 per minute taking into account the ship skill being 5 and mining drone operation to 5. so unless there is some other skill that effects them (I have a feeling that I'm missing one or 2) that would be a somewhat weak mining amount considering other options.
How about this..
You have all the other skills
Then you have the drone mining ship skill.
This skill does several things.
Increases mining drone yield and optimal range by 75% per level, and can field 1 additional mining drone per level.
So, at lvl 5 you get 375% better yield and range of mining drones, and can field 10 mining drones.
As far as the slot layout, here's what I suggest
3 high 6 mid 2 low 3 rigs Cargo capacity 2000m3 Drone BW 50 Drone Bay 50
This allows you to have a few high slots for weapon defense (ship gets 3 turret and 3 launcher hardpoints) 6 mids for tank/speed modules 2 lows for cargo expanders, or perhaps a new mining drone yield module (similar to mining upgrades) 3 rig slots for whatever
You would only be able to house 1 full rack of mining drones, so you have no combat drones available, unless you decide not to use some.
It should have enough cpu to fit a local tank, and maybe and afterburner, and only able to fit small guns and launchers. You can drop the guns for more power/cpu to appy more shield tank or a mwd.
I'd say base speed of this ship is that of a battleship. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
233
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Why not go simpler and declare certain battleships to have a mining role and assign them appropriate bonuses? Give the Armageddon and Dominix 10%/level drone mining bonus. Give the Scorpion and Typhoon 20%/level mining laser bonus.
I realize this doesn't give all the benefits of your idea, but it does acknowledge the gap and provide reasonable filler. I am aiming at something that also won't benefit bots as much as real players.
I see drone reliance as something they will have trouble with, comparatively speaking.
The mining BS idea, while having potential, is something they would greatly benefit from, and might choose to use as a better risk vs reward investment currently than their automated Hulks. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
674
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
mxzf wrote:It already exists. It's called a Carrier.
Nikk Narrel wrote: Lovely.
Now explain how we get one of these mining drone carriers into High-Sec, where the ganking is an issue.
Ganking isn't an issue in highsec, otherwise hulk pilots would adapt their behavior to fit tanking mods instead of just piling on MLUs, cargohold expanders and cargo rigs. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
233
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:mxzf wrote:It already exists. It's called a Carrier. Here, you left out a part:
Nikk Narrel wrote:mxzf wrote:It already exists. It's called a Carrier. Lovely. Now explain how we get one of these mining drone carriers into High-Sec, where the ganking is an issue. All fixed! |
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
674
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Like I said, ganking isn't an issue in highsec. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Like I said, ganking isn't an issue in highsec. Perhaps not in your opinion, but since so many others have objected to it so often, it is an issue to them.
So in this context, I suppose you could say I am referring to their interests, and not to those who do not see a problem, much less a need for a solution. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Like I said, ganking isn't an issue in highsec.
lolololololollol
You're funny
My corp and I ganked two hulks just about a month ago just because we were certain they were macro miners.
We used frigs and destroyers, and one stealth bomber.
We were able to destroy the two hulks at a cost of 100 mil for us, which isn't too bad. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:mxzf wrote:It already exists. It's called a Carrier. Nikk Narrel wrote: Lovely.
Now explain how we get one of these mining drone carriers into High-Sec, where the ganking is an issue.
Ganking isn't an issue in highsec, otherwise hulk pilots would adapt their behavior to fit tanking mods instead of just piling on MLUs, cargohold expanders and cargo rigs.
I can fit out a hulk for as much tank as possible and the only thing it means to the ganker is to bring 1 more destroyer.
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:mxzf wrote:It already exists. It's called a Carrier. Nikk Narrel wrote: Lovely.
Now explain how we get one of these mining drone carriers into High-Sec, where the ganking is an issue.
Ganking isn't an issue in highsec, otherwise hulk pilots would adapt their behavior to fit tanking mods instead of just piling on MLUs, cargohold expanders and cargo rigs. I see you have an exquisite sense of humor.
Your point is you refuse to acknowledge a problem, since you believe the solution to be present, albeit willfully ignored.
Have you ever tried, as the metaphor describes, 'herding cats'? |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
120
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Like I said, ganking isn't an issue in highsec. Ganking is *only* an issue in highsec, because you can't shoot first defensively.
You can "gank" in low or null, but there the miners can bring combat buddies who will be more than happy to have the targets come to them. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Like I said, ganking isn't an issue in highsec. Ganking is *only* an issue in highsec, because you can't shoot first defensively. You can "gank" in low or null, but there the miners can bring combat buddies who will be more than happy to have the targets come to them.
bringing combat defense in high sec mining is pointless.
The reason?
Because ganks in high sec are all about alpha. they have to take you down before Concord pops them, and your fleet can't engage them until they engage you. So basically, your hulk is gonna die reguardless of what else you bring, and their fleet is gonna die reguardless of what you do.. They're not afraid of you shooting at them, because they're going to get popped either way. The only thing that could possibly help your hulk survive is it you shoot them with your defense ship first. Yet, this only helps them more because they can potentially get 2 killmails for the price of one.
What I'm saying is that if they're going to gank your hulk in high sec, then there is nothing you can do to stop it apart from ganking them first. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Long story short, you want a ship that can survive a disposable / suicide's alpha, but still be worth the effort to undock and try to mine with.
If BS hulls were seriously viable in this role, it would not be an issue that so many Hulks were being popped. They would never have been undocked.
So, that is the inspiration for the Turtle, a ship clearly inferior to the Hulk in mining abilities, not nearly as easy to get into, and more skill intensive and effort intensive in the field.
But, it is far less likely to pop to an alpha than a Hulk, so there would be a demand for it.
And that demand justifies the concept. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
674
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 19:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:mxzf wrote:It already exists. It's called a Carrier. Nikk Narrel wrote: Lovely.
Now explain how we get one of these mining drone carriers into High-Sec, where the ganking is an issue.
Ganking isn't an issue in highsec, otherwise hulk pilots would adapt their behavior to fit tanking mods instead of just piling on MLUs, cargohold expanders and cargo rigs. I see you have an exquisite sense of humor. Your point is you refuse to acknowledge a problem, since you believe the solution to be present, albeit willfully ignored. Have you ever tried, as the metaphor describes, 'herding cats'? Again, ganking isn't an issue in highsec, otherwise hulk pilots would adapt their behavior to fit tanking mods instead of just piling on MLUs, cargohold expanders and cargo rigs
However, they do not adjust their behavior, because ganking is not a serious problem in highsec. And if ganking is not a problem in highsec, then no handicap uberehp mining vessel is needed. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
674
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 19:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote: If BS hulls were seriously viable in this role, it would not be an issue that so many Hulks were being popped. They would never have been undocked.
This is backwards. Rokhs are perfectly viable as mining ships with immense EHP. However they go unused because suicide ganking is not a problem. It is not enough of a problem to justify to players to downgrade their mining yield even a small percentage by bothering to fit tanking modules, let alone justify "downgrading" to a nearly gank-proof shieldbuffed BS. |
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