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Katerwaul
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.04.24 16:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Katerwaul wrote:I feel that just like Planetary Interaction, Science & Production, Mining, etc... there should be something that is added to EVE that is only accessible through Ambulation. While at the same time I wouldn't want this to make it so that people who are avoiding Ambulation entirely can't participate, there should be real differences in how the interactions take place. These places should be full of exploration & discovery. Yeah. Somewhat of a problem in motivating WiS is that pilots don't want to lose efficiency. There would be howls of rage if pilots had to walk down hallways to deal with agents who they currently talk to instantly from the comfort of their pod. Luckily for WiS proponents, Eve has notoriously crappy interfaces for doing the standard things. So a nasty trick to coerce pilots out of their pods could be to provide better interfaces which are only available by walking to a location. For instance, there are a million features you could add to the market window. So CCP could create a station Market area where an advanced interface is available, where you could do much more analysis, plot trends and statistics, whatever. The current LP store is a UI disaster, and I would walk a mile not to have to deal with it. Etc. So pilots would have all the same interfaces available to them, which is what we've demanded (ship-spinning), but there would be some strong incentives to move around in the station if you want to do some things better. (And for the station trader who never undocks anyway, hanging around a market area instead of his ship shouldn't be a big disadvantage.) I'm not suggesting this seriously - there are plenty of reasons to flame this kind of direction if it is followed too literally. But I still think there are ways that hard-core pilots could be weaned out of their ship-spinning ways towards better interfaces in station. And anyway, if the idea is a separate game that stands on its own feet as this thread suggests, then incentives like this shouldn't be needed.
First, I don't think this will be established as a stand-alone game. Team Avatar seems to be rather vehement in that regard and CCP has stated that Dust 514 is their first step in making games within the EVE universe that aren't part of EVE directly. That leads me to believe that the only option available for WiS will be to have it as part of EVE.
Second, while there are lots of "parts of eve" that not everyone uses, it does look like WiS will be one of the more Memory Intensive portions. As such making it optional should be considered by Team Avatar. It would give them a solid statistic on how many players are giving Ambulation a chance & help them narrow down their target audience.
Additionally, there should be no "smoothing out UI" components to WiS without relevant reasons. If someone doesn't want to lose efficiency they should Neocomm in to the agent like we currently do. If someone wants a more personal agent experience, they should walk over and talk with them in person. The same could be said of a more intimate interaction with the market or other areas. It shows a certain depth of character outside of the "Capsuleer" stereotype to have one of their kind come to speak with you directly. As such there should be an impact upon the person you're speaking with. I think the best impact would be standings related or the offer for a WiS style mission. It makes sense.
Part of what Team Avatar has done is helping to improve the UI overall, and I hope they continue to do so -- but I wouldn't want to see UI used as a gimmick to force people into WiS.
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business. |
Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
150
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Posted - 2012.04.25 02:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ai Shun, I really like the idea.
Curious on a few counts, though
Would there be some form of PvP outside of market pvp?
If not, would you be comfortable with the entirety of Eve manufacturing being (slowly) relegated to the EveWIS game, with appropriate skill rewards/incentives to people who formerly trained manufacturing skills (Or perhaps the option to roll their manufacturing character into the EveWIS, with appropriate rewards/incentives for any non-manufacturing skills they might have had) --- obviously a highly touchy question, but just curious.
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Francisco Bizzaro
49
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Posted - 2012.04.25 07:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Katerwaul wrote:First, I don't think this will be established as a stand-alone game. Neither do I. But that's the subject of this thread. And establishing it as an extra game does have some advantages in terms of providing a funding model and work-force to carry out the needed development, as outlined in the OP. The TL;DR I get from the original suggestion is: "Drop WoD and replace it with an Eve station game."
This doesn't seem to be what CCP are going to do, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. With a skeleton crew, WiS will develop at a glacial pace. Any attempt to increase the number of devs will be met with rage from FiS players, and somewhat justifiably so given the track record of WiS development. Look at the latest CSM minutes to read the attitude and the many assurances they extracted from CCP that there is no priority in this direction.
(There are still reasons why a stand-alone game may be a "bad idea", mostly business related, having to do with over-saturating the Eve IP, cannibalizing the existing game, and convincing the venture capitalists who hold the purse strings to sell off WoD ... but there are counter-arguments to these as well.)
Maybe with a new direction and focus the Team Avatar, or whatever they're called, can pull a rabbit out of a hat and win back players' hearts and minds. But - no fault to them - that will be a pretty big job. If you want WiS to develop at a pace where you actually see gameplay within your lifetime, you have to ask where is the money going to come from and who's going to do the work? Answering those questions in a way that doesn't p**s off existing players is difficult.
Quote:Part of what Team Avatar has done is helping to improve the UI overall, and I hope they continue to do so -- but I wouldn't want to see UI used as a gimmick to force people into WiS. That's why I put the caveats at the end of my post. Something like this would have a high likelihood of making FiS players feel like second-class citizens if it weren't handled carefully. The motivation for getting out of the pod should come from compelling original gameplay, rather than interface development which is "held back" from the FiS game. |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
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Posted - 2012.04.26 00:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
A good post. Cheers.
Months before incarna i was very excited, btween dust and wis it seemed like eve was ushering a new age in MMPORG.
But then they ****** everything and i unsubbed.
If only they could do it right... |
Ai Shun
756
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Posted - 2012.04.26 00:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
Degren wrote:Ai Shun, I really like the idea.
Thank you.
Degren wrote:Would there be some form of PvP outside of market pvp?
I think the game should have the same approach to competitive gameplay that EVE FiS has and that Dust 514 will have. It will have to have some safer environments, as Stations / Planets do not have the same vast, open emptiness that space has. There will be more security in a contained environment. Of course that would likely depend on the nature of the environment, because a smugglers' colony will be more dangerous than a Caldari city.
How to handle that though I do not know. It can't be too much like a FPS as that is the province of Dust 514, but you also don't want it be meaningless and boring.
Degren wrote:If not, would you be comfortable with the entirety of Eve manufacturing being (slowly) relegated to the EveWIS game, with appropriate skill rewards/incentives to people who formerly trained manufacturing skills (Or perhaps the option to roll their manufacturing character into the EveWIS, with appropriate rewards/incentives for any non-manufacturing skills they might have had) --- obviously a highly touchy question, but just curious.
No, because part of this is to leave FiS as untouched as humanly possible. No functionality can be removed, even if a WiS alternative is presented.
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:This doesn't seem to be what CCP are going to do, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. With a skeleton crew, WiS will develop at a glacial pace. Any attempt to increase the number of devs will be met with rage from FiS players, and somewhat justifiably so given the track record of WiS development. Look at the latest CSM minutes to read the attitude and the many assurances they extracted from CCP that there is no priority in this direction.
Thank you for that eloquent summary of what I've spent pages describing EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
Aren Valle
Lonetrek Mineral Corporation
2
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Posted - 2012.04.27 04:24:00 -
[36] - Quote
I agree with a good bit of what you are saying, but the idea of doing away with the WoD team is rather ridiculous. The WoD team are the ones that are developing all the Carbon mechanics that you want to utilize. Let them get their framework in place and get Carbon working properly. Everything that has been talked/dreamed/whined about for WiS is secondary to the core Carbon engine development.
Once all the mechanics for Carbon have been put in place and test stable, then and only then can you add the window dressing of the environment.
First rule of programming: Make it work, then make it pretty. |
Ai Shun
777
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Posted - 2012.04.27 04:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aren Valle wrote:I agree with a good bit of what you are saying, but the idea of doing away with the WoD team is rather ridiculous. The WoD team are the ones that are developing all the Carbon mechanics that you want to utilize. Let them get their framework in place and get Carbon working properly. Everything that has been talked/dreamed/whined about for WiS is secondary to the core Carbon engine development.
Why not develop Carbon in the EVE Universe, instead of for a different game?
EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
Lost True
Paradise project
15
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Posted - 2012.05.09 11:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
That's a lot of interesting ideas.
Didn't read them all yet... |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
58
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Posted - 2012.05.11 23:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote: to Ai Shun there is no need for WIS to be separate ,maybe working on a second server cluster ,yes. A lot of people want WIS to be meaningful ,if you make WIS meaningful to EVE ,there is no use to make WIS a seperate game. WIS would be part of EVE as the spaceships are. If WIS only is used to be a social aspect of the game ,then its only an addon ,so its not needed to make a game of it
This. I see no need for eve to be separate for WiS. (I do see a need for Trolls to be separate from eve, but that's more of a personal preference.)
And, frankly, I think we need to take some functionality away from FiS if we're going to keep having an eve to play in. Market in particular.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
asneakyfatcat inurtrashcan
Prescott Research Laboratories GekkoState.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.23 20:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'm liking your ideas here. EVE can get pretty boring at times so some twitch based gameplay would be great, especially now that DUST soldiers are fast approaching completion in all 4 races within the game lore, and will be live once DUST 514 comes out, so capsuleers could soon be safe outside of their pods. This also means that, by the templar 1/DUST lore, when you die exploring some hostile station you would be able to respawn right back at your ship docked outside. unlike when your ship is destroyed, your body is vaporized so you loose skillpoints during the snapshot, DUST soldiers have alot more time to send over the info. But idk about owning bars and shops, that doesn't fit what a capsuleer should be doing. Remember that 100,000 isk is an extremely large amount of money to the common folk in the EVE universe, and yet we capsuleers can make the in under a minute. |
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asneakyfatcat inurtrashcan
Prescott Research Laboratories GekkoState.
1
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Posted - 2012.05.23 20:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
I could also imagine that exploration missions could almost be close to a game like Dead Space in the amount of sheer horror they could achieve. Just imagine turning the corner in a blood raider outpost, only to see one of your crew having his eyes ripped out as he screams for mercy. They spot you and you are running for your life. You think your safe, but out of the shadows comes a pack of massive slaver hounds. If you don't think quick, dismemberment will soon follow. And don't even get me started on rogue drones. Just read the part in Templar 1 when the other reactivates Marcus's drones. They realize his new physiology and notice that it is causing him pain, resulting in them attempting to 'remove' the foreign implants in his brain. *shudder* It's some grousome stuff if you decide to read it... |
Susiqueta Muir
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2012.06.29 14:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
I agree with the concept that certain features and facilities can be handed over from purely NPC driven to player owned and managed in a WiS environment.
For instance,
Repair facilities in a station could be run by multiple vendors. Each player could set a price per point of Armour and point of structure (plus similar for modules) and the profitability of this would be dependant on the cost of any raw materials required (trit, isogen, mex etc), ship repair tools (which could be generated by PI) plus any relevant BPC's and/or ship building skills.
I.e. if my Avatar has Caldari ship construction 5 then they could build and repair anything up to and including Caldari BS's. For Capital ship repair I would need cap ship construction etc. I'd need to get amarr ship construction skills if my corpmate brings in an Abaddon etc...
From the pilots perspective, they would just either use the NPC or the PC repair facility instantaneously as per normal but the isk would go to the PC if they undercut the standard price. Or they could select a specific repair facility (Corp or player) if they wanted for instance to keep the money for the repairs "in house" within the corp...
Result:-
Cheaper ship repairs for the pilots, competition based on multiple factors (i.e. what ships you can repair, how many consumable repair comoddities your shop has available plus the cost of those to make, the price point for all armour and structure points plus those for fittings you have set, maybe even a skill that dictates how many ships per hour you can repair) an further markets opened up for the players to exploit.
For the FiS'ers, there is no difference as they will be given the best price possible for repairs and can shop around if needs be. if no PC's have setup shop in the station or none are cheaper than the NPC repair costs then they still pay no more than they would have before.
Hell, in a time of war, the players owning the outpost could zero any costs to help with the war effort...
SM.
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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1547
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Posted - 2012.06.29 15:13:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'd prefer it to be apart of Eve Online thanks. |
Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
41
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Posted - 2012.06.29 15:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Keep your stinky hands off of WoD dev team. I want to see it released and play it before I die of old age. |
PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
164
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Posted - 2012.06.29 16:15:00 -
[45] - Quote
And, what then happens to the WOD team? That isn't exactly an asset that CCP is likely to just throw away, there is substantial time and effort invested in that property.
More so, however (forgive me I didn't bother to read the giant text walls), having two games makes it THAT much harder to manage and synchronize, it breaks immersion, the likely main reason to even have WIS at all, and separates eve playes into two groups. Dividing eve players isn't something CCP wants to do. They are much more content to let us divide ourselves.
While there are some good ideas as to what WIS can be, I do not believe they should be separate games. More so, I've seen no evidence that EVE has become "too old to code" or to obtuse and complicated to continue working with. |
Atrocitus Parallax
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
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Posted - 2012.06.29 17:23:00 -
[46] - Quote
An even faster route might be a funded outsourcing. Look at something like The Repop, maybe CCP says we like what you did, use our code, make the avatar version of EVE, then when your done we will sync them up. |
Ai Shun
795
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Posted - 2012.07.01 06:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:I'd prefer it to be apart of Eve Online thanks.
As would I, hence this thread. CCP is in a strong position to use their concept of the universe across multiple game types; they're doing it with Dust and this way everybody gets to be happy instead of just some of them. EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
Serpensor
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.07.02 23:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
WiS as a separate game is an intriguing idea. I believe it would free CCP from the current home grown graphics engine that it uses, which I think leaves a lot to be desired, to one using the same technology they licensed from Unreal for DUST. CCP could focus it's efforts on level design and artwork and come up with gameplay that is appropriate for avatar based gameplay just like all the other avatar based MMOs out there. Furthermore, instead of being just like the other, amusement park style MMOs out there (WoW and its clones) they can stick with the sandbox style where CCP gives its player base the tools it needs to come up with compelling gameplay. |
Roland Astredies
Space Balls The Corporation Tactical Operation Fleet Delta
0
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Posted - 2012.07.04 21:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
I think it should be part of the core EVE game as well. I know and aware of the fact that there is a huge rift between FiS and Wis in the community. This game did start out as FiS and they are holding strong to the roots. However for myself personally I would love to go out of CQ and see more of the EVE universe. By design this game is absolutely huge! I think adding WiS successfully would help people realize that. I think it would be cool to go from the CQ to the station and look out the window and see one of the planets out the window! Or much like some of the EVE fiction be able to dock to a ship and walk around in the ship or let alone your own ship. C'mon, who wouldn't think leaving your pod and walking around your Thorax or some big ol' battleship would be cool? With the release of Dust514 though, I think they have more options to explore with WiS and similar concepts. As far as a usable and functional WiS mechanics, Dust 514 gives us some good ideas on where they are going with it. That is NOT me saying They have Dust, so be happy with that if you want WiS. It's me saying, hey look, they are going in the right direction. There is hope! But being able to do all the crap talked about in EON issue #006 would be awesome, not ganna lie. |
Ai Shun
796
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Posted - 2012.07.05 00:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
Roland Astredies wrote:I think it should be part of the core EVE game as well. I know and aware of the fact that there is a huge rift between FiS and Wis in the community. This game did start out as FiS and they are holding strong to the roots. However for myself personally I would love to go out of CQ and see more of the EVE universe. By design this game is absolutely huge! I think adding WiS successfully would help people realize that. I think it would be cool to go from the CQ to the station and look out the window and see one of the planets out the window! Or much like some of the EVE fiction be able to dock to a ship and walk around in the ship or let alone your own ship. C'mon, who wouldn't think leaving your pod and walking around your Thorax or some big ol' battleship would be cool? With the release of Dust514 though, I think they have more options to explore with WiS and similar concepts. As far as a usable and functional WiS mechanics, Dust 514 gives us some good ideas on where they are going with it. That is NOT me saying They have Dust, so be happy with that if you want WiS. It's me saying, hey look, they are going in the right direction. There is hope! But being able to do all the crap talked about in EON issue #006 would be awesome, not ganna lie.
I agree to a point. WiS integrated with FiS would be cool. But WiS on its' own as well as optionally integrated has:
* a bigger player base * more options * can be standalone product * won't **** off the hardcore FiS crowd
It really is the best middle ground that gives everybody what they desire and opens up more options. EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
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Roland Astredies
Space Balls The Corporation Tactical Operation Fleet Delta
0
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Posted - 2012.07.05 05:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
My only concern with it possibly being a separate entity would be new accounts for the game, much like Dust 514 is, you can't (as far as I'm aware of,) have a character with the same name in Dust as you can for EVE since they are separate games but both take place in New Eden, one person can't be in two places at the same time, one flying in a ship, one shooting a gun, it seems like a minor thing but I'm sure there are people who don't like it. So what I'm trying to get across is just the hassle of maintaining another account. And what would the game feature? Would it just be CCP's version of Second Life or similar titles but just based in space on one station? Would it be free? Would they require a subscription? Could you interact with both the Dust environment and the pilots of EVE? How would they make it fit into the games? New Eden has been in a constant state of war for years now so how could they incorporate a standalone WiS based game into the world? Maybe as just biomass and regular crew for ships? They made Dust fit because you need people on the ground fighting over planets which would control territories and resources and such so it works out great. I guess some other things to toss around? |
Roland Astredies
Space Balls The Corporation Tactical Operation Fleet Delta
0
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Posted - 2012.07.05 06:16:00 -
[52] - Quote
I don't know, well see how CCP will handle this and how and what they choose to focus on since they are working on World of Darkness, so already their staff might have more than just EVE to work on. |
Ai Shun
796
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Posted - 2012.07.05 08:48:00 -
[53] - Quote
Roland Astredies wrote:My only concern with it possibly being a separate entity would be new accounts for the game, much like Dust 514 is, you can't (as far as I'm aware of,) have a character with the same name in Dust as you can for EVE since they are separate games but both take place in New Eden, one person can't be in two places at the same time, one flying in a ship, one shooting a gun, it seems like a minor thing but I'm sure there are people who don't like it. So what I'm trying to get across is just the hassle of maintaining another account. And what would the game feature? Would it just be CCP's version of Second Life or similar titles but just based in space on one station? Would it be free? Would they require a subscription? Could you interact with both the Dust environment and the pilots of EVE? How would they make it fit into the games? New Eden has been in a constant state of war for years now so how could they incorporate a standalone WiS based game into the world? Maybe as just biomass and regular crew for ships? They made Dust fit because you need people on the ground fighting over planets which would control territories and resources and such so it works out great. I guess some other things to toss around?
I've put my thoughts forward in the thread on how it can be handled in a seamless fashion. You're welcome to read it and suggest options on it or improvements. EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
126
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Posted - 2012.07.05 10:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
1) thanks to monoclegeddon there is no WoD team anymore and
2) separate game and engine for couple of boring mini-games like PI - surely it will be insanely popular and there will be huge income from that for CCP and
3) of course it won't take a penny out of EVE which already stagnates without any meaningful gameplay expansions during last 2 years.
Though could be nice to see all of your suggestions implemented within EVE.
TL;DR no, thanks! |
Roland Astredies
Space Balls The Corporation Tactical Operation Fleet Delta
0
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Posted - 2012.07.05 21:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
Hmm, well at this point in time I am going to withdraw from the posting because I got nothing. But I do like the suggestions and the HEALTHY discussions/suggestions that this thread about WiS was able to maintain... My observation is that after a few posts you would get trolls in on it and rage about it one way or other. The thread was always brought back to the main point of this thread, separate entity or the same? I think there was a lot of constructive criticism and cool ideas from the community for the WiS concept to be implemented, so kudos Ai Shun and everyone else that kept it peaceful and brought it back to what it was about. I know the dev team scours the forums, so hopefully they come across this one and takes some these things into consideration. |
Screenlag
Beyond The Gates Black Core Alliance
22
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Posted - 2012.07.06 10:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:To feel integrated in the Eve universe, it might be good if WiS accounts had some limited space-flight ability, e.g. able to fly a shuttle. This would require an FiS-capable client, though. Otherwise an FiS transport service would do the job. It would be great if that could be player run (new ship class) with all of the usual FiS dangers and appropriate consequences attached. But timing might be a problem, in the sense that you don't want to wait a week for the next transport to visit your remote system.
Don't know if this has been said, but people are going to accept this courier contracts and then blow themselves up just to **** the WiS people off. Even if I need isk, I know certain, no names, organisations do not, and they've already shown that they're willing to throw lods of money on nothing just to **** people off. |
Johan Civire
Dirty Curse inc.
63
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
Love to see this however i hope WiS and FiS are not 2 games but please let it just 1 game |
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