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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
253
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Posted - 2012.04.22 14:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
WiS needs to be finished - as in completed to a state where it has playable game play value - not least because a strong criticism of CCP is that they start features, but do not complete them.
As it stands WiS is a dead weight around the shoulders of EVE Online, and it will remain like a giant folly until developer time is focused upon it. There is potential within the idea of 'in station game play' but a fast and dirty approach won't realize that potential. Nor will having a small, under resourced team tinkering around the edges deliver anything of value to the community.
As it stands we're 5 - 6 years from seeing WiS realized as a genuine element of EVE Online and that's unlikely to be good for EVE in the long term.
C.
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Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
254
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Posted - 2012.04.23 09:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Do things like "Golden Ammo", "NEX" and so forth ring bells? NEX is just a part of WiS. I do not see you having a point other than that you want to keep holding on to something, which has caused the game harm. Again, we have our opinions. You do not need to defend yours to me. It was not you who thinks he needs to teach me his view.
The summer of rage, and subsequent diaspora of the EVE players is a complex subject. In part it has its origins in WiS, in that it was a new feature being pursued by CCP at the expense of other incomplete or weak features (e.g faction warfare). It also had its origins in the introduction of NeX / micro transactions, fears over P2W, and a general perception that CCP was arrogant in its treatment of its player base and prepared to milk that same group of customers for more revenue
Where (in my view) WiS failed to inspire EVEs players is not that it was divergent from EVEs core game play (DUST 514 for example is divergent but doesn't draw the same objections) but that it had no game play value in and of itself
Some would argue that avatar customisation is sufficient game play alone - but I don't believe that is the case. There was no inherent 'game' to be played with WiS. In order to be resurrected WiS needs actual game play at its core be that PVP or PVE: the attractiveness or otherwise of its avatars is secondary
If players could stab, shoot and maul each other in stations how much differently would WiS be perceived? In my view, some form of PVP is ultimately necessary - EVEs most vocal player base vehemently demands PVP and its inclusion would win over to a great extent those that view WiS as nothing more than space barbie eye candy.
Or, to put it another way, how successful would EVE Online be if you couldn't shoot other players? Or couldn't shoot anyone That's the quandary WiS fell into: the equivalent of EVE FiS without blowing stuff up
Therein lies the crux of WiS development and that is ultimately what CCP have to address |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
254
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Posted - 2012.04.23 12:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:There are many good games out there and combining them all into one might sound like a brilliant idea, but it is actually only a waste of resources, because you already have the choice to play them all.
That's were I believe there are two distinct perspectives. On the one hand there are those players who appreciate EVE Online as it is - focused on the representation of space ships and space ship battles. On the other hand there are those who look to the broader intellectual property of EVE as a science fiction universe
What is interesting to me is that DUST514 sits firmly in the latter camp: an expansion into another means of experiencing the IP of the EVE universe. This game has, generally, received some support from the EVE player base. WiS on the other hand has not although it accomplishes the same thing i.e. a different means of interacting with a realisation of a science fiction setting.
Why would DUST514 be accepted into the pantheon of EVE, if WiS is not? The reasons it would be accepted are, in my view, are what needs to be injected into WiS in some form or other.
WiS, as realized to date, is not a 'game': there is no fundamental competition involved in it which is something which essentially defines 'games'.
I do however understand your perspective that, for you at least, EVE Online offers sufficient game play and does not need an additional environment to make it more fun. I take the counter view which is that I enjoy watching and participating in the dynamics between game systems - for example the dynamics between one group of players 'in space' and another 'on a planet'. I believe those interfaces add gaming value not least because of the frictions and interplay between them.
C.
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Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
254
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Posted - 2012.04.23 13:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: I do not think you got my point. I believe that it cannot add more fun to it. Just like adding more races and more weapon systems and T1 ships will not add more fun to EVE, because we already have a decent variety of ships. An avatar is not more than a spaceship that takes clothing instead of modules.
I think I better understand your point of view, although it is not one I agree with (perhaps because I generally have enjoyed the introduction of new weapons and ships). And I would argue that whilst a ship is in essence an 'avatar' I could envisage a type of game play that is radically different to using a ship when compared to using a humanoid avatar (for example comparing EVEs module rote based combat to something like DUST514s avatar 'twitched' based combat).
C.
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Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
254
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Posted - 2012.04.23 13:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:[/quote=Shandir] CCP Bayesian wrote: When is this communication that we've been promised going to start with regards to WiS?
We've put out at least one dev blog on the subject and held a roundtable at fanfest as well as posting in the forums. I spoke with the rest of the team earlier and we'll be putting out a new devblog on the Incarna prototyping effort in the next couple of weeks. But to give some details we're currently prototyping core gameplay using Unity and concentrating on some exploration style gameplay which sticks close to the core principles in EVE. Where action in WiS is its own ecosystem with cross-links into the other parts of the game. One Universe isn't just a marketing slogan.
The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'? Or rather what its relevance is to what the original design for WiS was envisaged as?
C. |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
255
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Posted - 2012.04.23 16:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Cailais wrote:The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'? Sure, the basic premise would be along the lines of exploring space to discover abandoned structures then going inside them to salvage what you can whilst dealing with any surprises expected and otherwise. This should be expanded on in the forthcoming devblog. We'd also include in that all the social spaces within stations and what not you'd previously expected so this isn't a replacement for other designs but actually provides a space for meaningful gameplay. It's also not the only idea we're working on but is certainly the most developed. The exciting thing is we're seeing some overlap between different ideas so the possibilities for extending WiS gameplay could be pretty awesome once the initial gameplay release is done.
Ok, this gives us more detail to discuss and comment upon (and hopefully hear about in a dev blog). Obviously I think there needs to be careful consideration regarding transiting from your ship to another structure (i.e stations are safe havens for ships from attacks, do 'abandoned structures' offer the same state?)
Scaling may be an issue (what happens when all of PL try to squeeze into the same structure?). I rather get the impression that this exploration is orientated towards small teams or individuals? I'd be interested to hear what thoughts the dev teams have on that issue.
Certainly these structures offer both potential PVP and PVE orientated game play. And there is ample room to deliver different type of structures in different types of space (high, low, etc). To my mind it would appear that exploring such structures would be a 'high risk' venture in that a player would risk not only their clone, but also their ship? Which brings about what rewards would be comparable to such risk
Finally I would be interested to hear what correlation there would be between the gameplay of your proposed exploration (archaeology?) and the "vanilla" WiS social content. I could envisage players delving into such abandoned structures to bring back shiny items that have a relevance to WiS in station environments (and from there a natural lead onto contraband goods, smuggling and narcotic use).
Are there additional conceptual ideas you would like to hear off, or would like to propose to garner feed back on
C |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
259
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Posted - 2012.04.24 14:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: Ultimately developing better tools lets us make better gameplay faster and the first step in that is deciding what we want to make. I realise it's frustrating we're not continuing to develop on top of what already exists but trust me it's not because we don't want to provide you guys with all the things that were promised it just that we want to do it right so that not only do you get what was promised but we are in a position to rapidly build on that in interesting ways rather than hamstringing ourselves.
Which, ironically, is pretty much what the community recommended as we became increasingly concious that WiS was being manufactured in a 'game play vacuum'. But that's by the by.
Any avatar game play in EVE is, to an extent, tainted by the events of last summer. That makes it all the more important that the development of future avatar features is well thought out, presented early to the player base (to solicit feedback) and then delivered in a complete a form as possible.
Even if the development statement is "here is what we scribbled on a white board, and we selected these elements because..." could reap benefits now - rather than wait until later and announce a feature pack that is received unfavourably.
C.
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