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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Bishop Ares
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Posted - 2009.02.05 13:27:00 -
[1]
I was thinking today that there aught to be a option you can click on a wreck to "Ask permission to salvage".
You click on it and it sends a popup to the creator of the wreckage. They either accept or deny, and thats it. You can also have preferences to set "always ask", "always deny" or "always accept".
Sounds simple doesn't it? Sure it would reduce ninja salvaging a bit, but it wouldn't kill it completely. People could still make their living doing it, and they'd **** people off less for doing it because they'd always be salvaging stuff that people aren't going to bother to salvage. Sounds like a win win to me. |
Dawts
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.02.05 14:39:00 -
[2]
So what's the point?
Someone tells me "no". Ok, I'm still going to activate my salvager. Seems like a pointless feature that honestly won't do anything at all. You could simply ask in local or a priv convo if you really feel the need to be polite. |
Reeno Coleman
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Posted - 2009.02.05 14:46:00 -
[3]
EVE is meant to have conflicts, EVE is meant to have crime. The system as it works by now is totally intentional.
I heard "Hello Kitty's Awesome Online Adventures" is looking for subscribers. |
Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.05 19:41:00 -
[4]
The very definition of ninja salvaging is salvaging wrecks that aren't your regardless of permission. Permission isn't even required because there's no ownership. The Devs have stated multiple times in threads and the GMs have responded to petitions the same way. Creating a wreck implies ownership only of the content within the wreck (i.e. the loot) not the salvage. Salvage is produced by the salvager activating a module and gathering the materials, same as mining. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.05 19:51:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 05/02/2009 19:51:20 These "How to fix ninjasalvaging" threads are incredibly stupid. In order for it to make any sense or get anywhere, you need to convince us that ninjasalvaging is a problem in the first place.
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Marius Deterium
Caldari The Hull Miners Union
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:49:00 -
[6]
Holy crap the carebears in empire take their garbage seriously. --- Mining hulls for the juicy goods inside.
Good...bad, I'm the guy with the gun. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:19:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 05/02/2009 22:24:41
Originally by: Marius Deterium Holy crap the carebears in empire take their garbage seriously.
Yeah, yer a moron. If it was garbage no one would whine about it.
I dunno about you, but my "garbage" is worth around 5-8 mil per lvl 4.
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 05/02/2009 19:51:20 These "How to fix ninjasalvaging" threads are incredibly stupid. In order for it to make any sense or get anywhere, you need to convince us that ninjasalvaging is a problem in the first place.
Obviously quite a few people think it's a problem. Subject keeps comin up don't it?
It's the exact same argument that went around for jet cans. Enough people cried that cans got changed to flag people that took from them.
Guess what? If enough people whine, salvaging a wreck that isn't yours will flag you as well. Keep it up, the more people you **** off the quicker change will come.
And yes wrecks belong to someone. Click on one and select "show info". Yeah there's a name there. If you blow up a yellow wreck in high sec, see how long it takes concord to show up. This is why so many consider it stealing.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:37:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 05/02/2009 22:39:35 Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 05/02/2009 22:38:52
Quote: Obviously quite a few people think it's a problem. Subject keeps comin up don't it?
Irrelevant. People thinking it bad does not make it bad. You need to convince CCP that it's bad, until you do, this thread is useless.
Quote: I dunno about you, but my "garbage" is worth around 5-8 mil per lvl 4.
Only 5-8 mil? Please, come to Penirgman and run some Sansha missions. I'll be waiting
Quote: It's the exact same argument that went around for jet cans. Enough people cried that cans got changed to flag people that took from them.
Can you link me to a post where CCP publicly came out and said that being able to nab stuff from cans/wrecks without aggression was a good, intended mechanic? I bet you can't. It worked like that for awhile and was legal, but that didn't mean CCP liked it. Eventually, it got changed. To quote CCP PrismX
Quote: 's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding
Game over. Unlike nabbing loot from cans without aggression, CCP likes the current mechanic and the way it affects gameplay.
Quote: And yes wrecks belong to someone. Click on one and select "show info". Yeah there's a name there. If you blow up a yellow wreck in high sec, see how long it takes concord to show up. This is why so many consider it stealing.
Nope. The little picture refers to the person who owns the loot inside the wreck, not the wreck itself. The picture appearing on the "show info" of the wreck is purely an interface convenience.
Quote: Guess what? If enough people whine, salvaging a wreck that isn't yours will flag you as well. Keep it up, the more people you **** off the quicker change will come.
I personally have nothing to lose if they do, having a gank tempest in station. I'm merely arguing the point because
-Not all ninjas have a gank BS, especially the newer ones. -Salvaging is NOT supposed to be just extra lootz for a missionrunner, but a separate profession. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:05:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 05/02/2009 23:14:36
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Can you link me to a post where CCP publicly came out and said that being able to nab stuff from cans/wrecks without aggression was a good, intended mechanic? I bet you can't. It worked like that for awhile and was legal, but that didn't mean CCP liked it. Eventually, it got changed.
Still looking for an "official CCP post" But I've found 5 or 6 of these so far:
Posted - 2006.07.03 03:34:00
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
I agree a small security loss of 0.1 or 0.05 per can theft might be a good idea. After all you steal and it would make sense if you lose sec status because of it. Someone who steals isn't trustworthy.
But you've jetissoned the can, so its no longer yours.
Miners are quite lucky that CCP even introduced can flagging: for years they stated over and over that they would never do such a thing. Asking for more is... arrogant, if anything.
Same exact argument but I'll keep looking.
I was there for the argument's and recall seeing official quotes posted a few times. I just don't remember exactly where.
BTW an official post by ccp doesn't make it law. They've eaten thier words so many times that they usually won't even post on the boards anymore.
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
-Salvaging is NOT supposed to be just extra lootz for a missionrunner, but a separate profession.
Garbage collector was considered a profession before there were wrecks and ships blew up into jet cans. Some people still do it.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass And yes wrecks belong to someone. Click on one and select "show info". Yeah there's a name there. If you blow up a yellow wreck in high sec, see how long it takes concord to show up. This is why so many consider it stealing.
Nope. The little picture refers to the person who owns the loot inside the wreck, not the wreck itself. The picture appearing on the "show info" of the wreck is purely an interface convenience.
So why does concord show up if you blow up an empty wreck someone else's picture on it?
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:37:00 -
[11]
Quote: Still looking for an "official CCP post" But I've found 5 or 6 of these so far:
If they stayed "Over and over" that they would "Never do it" then it should be hideously easy to find a CCP post confirming it. Thus, I conclude that the guy who posted that is full of ****.
Quote:
BTW an official post by ccp doesn't make it law. They've eaten thier words so many times that they usually won't even post on the boards anymore.
So CCP PrismX really has absolutely no idea what CCP's intentions were regarding the salvaging system?
there's a difference between them stating that something's allowed and that something's a good mechanic working as intended.
Quote: So why does concord show up if you blow up an empty wreck with someone else's picture on it?
Probably because the wreck is treated as a container containing your loot even if it's empty. Either that, or it was a throwback to the days where the absolute only use for a wreck was to gather loot, and the programming time it would take to exempt empty wrecks from CONCORD response would not be worthwhile.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 05/02/2009 23:59:36
Originally by: Kahega Amielden So CCP PrismX really has absolutely no idea what CCP's intentions were regarding the salvaging system?
I'm quite sure CCP PrismX is "in the know". He's just one guy though huh? And probably not at the top of the food chain. How many times has CCP changed thier plans after someone throws up a post? How many times have they had to change thier features list after the fact?
Hey this looks familiar:
Posted - 2005.07.13 12:59:00 - [11]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just have A freind Collecting the Loot for you.
Loot theivery is a valid playstyle, As is Ore theivery. If you dont like dont hunt where there is people around.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still lookin. Gettin closer. null Try this for a blast from the past. Same **** different day. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 00:17:00 -
[13]
Hey look what I found:
Originally by: Siri Danae Posted - 2005.06.21 16:00:00
Edited by: Siri Danae on 21/06/2005 16:01:35 Have any of you read the statement under 'Find an Answer' on the left-hand menu (Linkage?) that reads as follows: ------ Question Why is it so easy to steal ore ?
Answer The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord. ------
Ladies and Gentlemen, you already got your fix, it was the secure can. It was due to shortsighted abuse of these cans by corporations that they were made unanchorable in highsec space. If you could not be trusted with a secure can, why should you be trusted with life and death power over unorthodox mineral acquisition agents?
On another note, this has been beaten to death in the general forums, its been overdiscussed to no avail in the crime and punishment forum, why are you sullying this forum with another thread filled with complaints and overzealous vigilante dreams?
The thread doesn't show up on the eve forum anymore but here's a link to eve-search.
Dunno why I bothered, yer just gonna put a spin on it.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 00:24:00 -
[14]
Anyway the point is: taking loot from a loot/jet can was never considered theft, and as such you were never flagged. Intended mechanic.
Things change despite offical posts.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.06 00:37:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I'm quite sure CCP PrismX is "in the know". He's just one guy though huh? And probably not at the top of the food chain. How many times has CCP changed thier plans after someone throws up a post? How many times have they had to change thier features list after the fact?
I've never seen them change their opinion of the core design of a profession.
Quote:
The thread doesn't show up on the eve forum anymore but here's a link to eve-search.
Dunno why I bothered, yer just gonna put a spin on it.
Was a CCP response to emergent gameplay. The reason jetcans originally didn't flag anyone is because, beforehand, their only purpose was to drop **** into space.
The players found a new use for the jetcan, which was to mine into. Secure cans were introduced, with the notable disadvantage of being tiny. CCP decided later that using a jetcan as temporary storage rather than a waste disposal method was an interesting twist on gameplay and changed aggression rules around to accommodate that.
There is no such emergent gameplay here. Salvaging is and always was a profession to extract valuable stuff from a floating wreck. It was never anything more or anything less. As such, there's nothing for CCP to reconsider. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 00:52:00 -
[16]
Yup see, here's the spin.
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Was a CCP response to emergent gameplay. The reason jetcans originally didn't flag anyone is because, beforehand, their only purpose was to drop **** into space.
Emergent gameplay? The game had already been out for 2 years.
Jet can's and loot cans were one and the same. There were no wrecks. You blew up a ship and a jet/loot can appeared. Originally you couldn't even add to a can once it was in space. They changed that mechanic later as well.
Anyone could take anything from any can, loot or jet, and it ****ed people off. "Wreck" stealing wasn't considered stealing. It's the EXACT same arguement. Enough people screamed and intended mechanics got changed.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.06 00:59:00 -
[17]
Emergent gameplay isn't when CCP changes something, emergent gameplay is when the players use a game mechanic in a new, unexpected way. Otherwise known as an EXPLOIT, but one that CCP thought wasn't overpowered and could be molded into a cool game mechanic.
Quote: Jet can's and loot cans were one and the same. Thereeven were no wrecks. You blew up a ship and a jet/loot can appeared. Originally you couldn't add to a can once it was in space. They changed that mechanic later as well.
You couldn't add stuff to cans because, again, they were initially designed as simply **** floating in space. As far as looting from destroyed NPCs, it was more or less irrelevant. You couldn't be probed down in a mission until Revelations introduced scan probes. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden You couldn't add stuff to cans because, again, they were initially designed as simply **** floating in space. As far as looting from destroyed NPCs, it was more or less irrelevant. You couldn't be probed down in a mission until Revelations introduced scan probes.
As I've said twice now: it wasn't just jet cans. Get a juicy spawn, some nice factions loot, a faction ship bpc? People could steal your loot and you had to take the security hit to attack them, because it wasn't yours. It was just wreckage in space.
Everything was free for all, just like salvage is now. How is this any different?
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden As far as looting from destroyed NPCs, it was more or less irrelevant. You couldn't be probed down in a mission until Revelations introduced scan probes.
Yeah cause you couldn't run static plexes all day long for some of the best cash in the game. riiiight.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:12:00 -
[20]
The sec hit for popping a ship in lowsec is virtually nothing. If someone warps into you on a lowsec belt, I guarantee they're not there for the loot. As for hisec...no one seriously rats in hisec, so that's more or less irrelevant.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden The sec hit for popping a ship in lowsec is virtually nothing. If someone warps into you on a lowsec belt, I guarantee they're not there for the loot. As for hisec...no one seriously rats in hisec, so that's more or less irrelevant.
It's doesn't matter what the sec hit was. You were the criminal because you shot at someone who took your extremely profitable wreckage that didn't belong to anyone.
Sound familiar?
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:17:00 -
[22]
Enough spin. If enough people ***** and moan, it'll get changed. Just like before.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:20:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 06/02/2009 01:21:23 Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 06/02/2009 01:20:33
Quote:
Yeah cause you couldn't run static plexes all day long for some of the best cash in the game.
Loot was designed as one of the rewards for blowing up rats. That's why any ship with a cargohold can pick up said loot
Quote: It's doesn't matter what the sec hit was. You were the criminal because you shot at someone who took your extremely profitable wreckage that didn't belong to anyone.
The penalty was tiny enough to be more or less pointless. Again, no one is going to warp to you in a lowsec belt just to grab some rat loot.
Quote: Enough spin. If enough people ***** and moan, it'll get changed. Just like before.
Whatever. Not that it really matters to me of course, as a missionrunner would have to be ******ed to fire at a ninjasalvager anyway, Fortunately for the new players, however, you're wrong.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Whatever. Not that it really matters to me of course, as a missionrunner would have to be ******ed to fire at a ninjasalvager anyway, Fortunately for the new players, however, you're wrong.
I'd happily insta pop a salvage ninja and then dock up to wait out the agression timer. I'd also happily call in a gang mate in a ceptor to pod his ass back to whereever he came from. I'll live with the risks.
As it is now I get to watch some ****tard get rich off my work while he hides behind concord. |
Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:37:00 -
[25]
If there is no problem, there is nothing to fix.
Move along, nothing to see here. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:37:00 -
[26]
Quote: I'd happily insta pop a salvage ninja and then dock up to wait out the agression timer. I'd also happily call in a gang mate in a ceptor to pod his ass back to whereever he came from. I'll live with the risks.
Instapop...seriously? How do you plan on instapopping a small frig?
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Instapop...seriously? How do you plan on instapopping a small frig?
Have you never used a t2 tempest with 1400's on a t1 frigate or destroyer? Even a cruiser is a two volley. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:46:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Have you never used a t2 tempest with 1400's on a t1 frigate or destroyer? Even a cruiser is a two volley.
Ever tried to hit an ABing frigate with 1400mm artillery? |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Have you never used a t2 tempest with 1400's on a t1 frigate or destroyer? Even a cruiser is a two volley.
Ever tried to hit an ABing frigate with 1400mm artillery?
Yer way off topic. And sure anything outside 20km easy. Inside 20km, t2 drones work well.
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SDragoon
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Posted - 2009.02.06 07:24:00 -
[30]
I fail to see the problem here, why not just salvage as you go along? Or you could even bring along a friend in a fast ship to do it for you.
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Dawts
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.02.06 15:05:00 -
[31]
I'm sure a lot of salvagers will be excited if they introduce flagging. Just like can flipping it will be easy to fit a ship against mission specific ships in the area and a new form of high sec piracy will be born. Would you rather lose your salvage or your CNR? |
Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:09:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I'd happily insta pop a salvage ninja and then dock up to wait out the agression timer. I'd also happily call in a gang mate in a ceptor to pod his ass back to whereever he came from. I'll live with the risks.
So... why don't you?
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:55:00 -
[33]
How to fix ninja salvaging: make all missions drop a beacon in local for everyone to see. This ensures that everything is balanced and ninja salvaging requires as much skill as mission running.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:21:00 -
[34]
Simply make all Deadspaces small pockets of 0.0. The Missionrunners can shot at the ebil Ninja Salvagers.
That is what you want right?
[i] FOR PONY |
Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2009.02.06 23:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: RedSplat Simply make all Deadspaces small pockets of 0.0. The Missionrunners can shot at the ebil Ninja Salvagers.
That is what you want right?
That's what I want, yeah!!!
............. Starbreaker Frigateers - life on the edge |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.06 23:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 05/02/2009 23:21:35
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass And yes wrecks belong to someone. Click on one and select "show info". Yeah there's a name there. If you blow up a yellow wreck in high sec, see how long it takes concord to show up. This is why so many consider it stealing.
Nope. The little picture refers to the person who owns the loot inside the wreck, not the wreck itself. The picture appearing on the "show info" of the wreck is purely an interface convenience.
So why does concord show up if you blow up an empty wreck with someone else's picture on it?
thats what we call a database convenience. wrecks are containers. running a check to see if a container in space has something owned by somebody else every time someone shoots at one would put a lot of load on the server. so they dont. they just assume it is and sic concord on you.
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Ninjasalvagingislegal
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:13:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass rabble...rabble
You're logic is completely flawed. You feel that CCP is going to change this, they already have. When Salvaging was first introduced, you had to loot a wreck before you could salvage it. People complained and CCP realized that their new mini-profession wouldn't become a reality without some changes. So they dropped the looting requirement and now you are left with the system that we have today. So...yeah CCP does change their mind but rarely do they flip-flop and then flip back to the original method.
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Alyln
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Posted - 2009.02.07 01:28:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Alyln on 07/02/2009 01:28:56 woops ignore this
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 19:57:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 07/02/2009 20:08:58
Originally by: Sir Substance thats what we call a database convenience. wrecks are containers. running a check to see if a container in space has something owned by somebody else every time someone shoots at one would put a lot of load on the server. so they dont. they just assume it is and sic concord on you.
I disagree, the wreck has my name on it, so it's mine. If I only own what's in the wreck, why not remove ownership when empty the wreck? Or how about this? You say I only own the stuff in the container. Isn't the salvage in the container?
Point still stands: if enough people *****, it'll get changed, just like before. |
Thargat
Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.07 20:12:00 -
[40]
From a immersion point of view the current system makes perfect sense. Shipwrecks (IRL) belongs to the one who manages to salvage them first, regardless of previous owners (though naval vessels might be different). Just finding or boarding the vessel means nothing, it's actual salvage that matters (again IRL it means you need to be able to actually pilot/tow the wreck in question). There are IRL companies specialised in this kind of salvage operations, they're often payed by the insurance companies where the ship in question is insured. CCP is a icelandic company (a country with a long seafaring history and culture). |
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 20:17:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 07/02/2009 20:26:35 Where do you all keep getting these "salvage laws"? Salvaged property still belongs to the original owner as long as he pays who ever salvaged it for his work.
"Unlike land based volunteer acts to save property, the person who saves property at sea is entitled to a reward which is generously computed in light of the fundamental public policy involved. Public policy, to encourage mariners to provide prompt service in emergencies, is to award compensation much greater than the value of the actual labor involved."
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Thargat
Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:02:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Thargat on 07/02/2009 21:05:55
If a vessel is abandoned and not seaworthy you may board the vessel (at wich point it still belongs to the original owner) and claim it for salvage (claims are usually granted by the government since no one wants ships sinking/drifting in or close to their territorial waters). The claimant however have a responsibility to act to salvage the ship (or you loose your right to the vessel and it's cargo).
The owner may claim that the wreck is NOT actually abandoned, this however is often a lengthly process and the salvage usually becomes the property of the claimants within 90days (often too short a time for the actual owners to do anything about it). Edit: Insurance companies (like lloyds) usually employ crack teams of expert salvagers with helis and large resources to salvage the ships before less "proffessional" and other shady seafarers turn up.
It is true that this is abused in many countries today and there are several debates in multiple western nations about a need to re-write the laws concerning this (the most common argument being divers plundering wrecks less than 100years of age). Breathing 0.0 |
Ninjasalvagingislegal
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 07/02/2009 20:29:17 Where do you all keep getting these "salvage laws"? Salvaged property still belongs to the original owner as long as he pays who ever salvaged it for his work.
"Unlike land based volunteer acts to save property, the person who saves property at sea is entitled to a reward which is generously computed in light of the fundamental public policy involved. Public policy, to encourage mariners to provide prompt service in emergencies, is to award compensation much greater than the value of the actual labor involved."
Spoils of war on the other hand generally belong to the winner, IE whoever created the wreck.
I'm still waiting on your to respond to my post Jackass |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass rabble...rabble
You're logic is completely flawed. You feel that CCP is going to change this, they already have. When Salvaging was first introduced, you had to loot a wreck before you could salvage it. People complained and CCP realized that their new mini-profession wouldn't become a reality without some changes. So they dropped the looting requirement and now you are left with the system that we have today. So...yeah CCP does change their mind but rarely do they flip-flop and then flip back to the original method.
Back when everyone was ****ed off about loot/jet can theft and "garbage collector" was a mini profession, CCP decided to "meet players half way" and introduced secure containers. They stated that this was good enough and that loot/jet cans would stay free for all. People continued to *****.
Guess what? Stealing from a jet can/wreck flags you now. Same exact arguments we are having now. Deja vu? |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:38:00 -
[45]
Ya know what, I'd be happy if they just flagged players for entering a mission without permission.
You wanna salvage belts? Fine, You wanna salvage closed missions? Fine. You wanna salvage active non dead space missions? Fine. You step into my dead space mission though, and I want the option of blowing you to hell.
It gets old when someone stealing my spoils hides behind concord. That's not a sand box. That's CCP sanctioned griefing. |
Ninjasalvagingislegal
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:44:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ninjasalvagingislegal on 07/02/2009 21:44:42
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Ya know what, I'd be happy if they just flagged players for entering a mission without permission.
You wanna salvage belts? Fine, You wanna salvage closed missions? Fine. You wanna salvage active non dead space missions? Fine. You step into my dead space mission though, and I want the option of blowing you to hell.
It gets old when someone stealing my spoils hides behind concord. That's not a sand box. That's CCP sanctioned griefing.
Have you not read this yet?
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:58:00 -
[47]
Yeah I read it.
Did you read this? I posted it earlier in the thread:
Question Why is it so easy to steal ore ?
Answer The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
CCP most certainly does go back on intended features when it has to. As they should. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:01:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 07/02/2009 22:02:10 And before go off on the "that's jet can mining" the exact same mechanics applied to loot as well. |
Ninjasalvagingislegal
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:04:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Yeah I read it.
Did you read this? I posted it earlier in the thread:
Question Why is it so easy to steal ore ?
Answer The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
CCP most certainly does go back on intended features when it has to. As they should.
But like I said before, you fail. And here is why, CCP has already went back on their intended function of salvaging. Salvaging used to incur a flag because you had to loot a wreck before salvaging it. CCP went back on that and removed the requirement and flag. Now anyone can salvage a wreck. You can whine a complain like a 3 year old all you want but they aren't going to give high-sec mission runners any more easy income. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:18:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal But like I said before, you fail. And here is why, CCP has already went back on their intended function of salvaging. Salvaging used to incur a flag because you had to loot a wreck before salvaging it. CCP went back on that and removed the requirement and flag. Now anyone can salvage a wreck. You can whine a complain like a 3 year old all you want but they aren't going to give high-sec mission runners any more easy income.
Maybe if you say "you fail" enough, you'll win the internet. Lemme know how that works out.
And stealing loot used to not flag you, then CCP went back and added secure cans to give people ownership of stuff they put in space while still keeping loot FFA, they introduced secure cans. Anyone could still take loot from a wreck, but people could store stuff in space. You can throw childish insults all you like but ccp has gone back on desicions before, and they will again if enough people dislike the current mechanics.
Oh and grow up. |
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Ninjasalvagingislegal
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:21:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal But like I said before, you fail. And here is why, CCP has already went back on their intended function of salvaging. Salvaging used to incur a flag because you had to loot a wreck before salvaging it. CCP went back on that and removed the requirement and flag. Now anyone can salvage a wreck. You can whine a complain like a 3 year old all you want but they aren't going to give high-sec mission runners any more easy income.
Maybe if you say "you fail" enough, you'll win the internet. Lemme know how that works out.
And stealing loot used to not flag you, then CCP went back and added secure cans to give people ownership of stuff they put in space while still keeping loot FFA, they introduced secure cans. Anyone could still take loot from a wreck, but people could store stuff in space. You can throw childish insults all you like but ccp has gone back on desicions before, and they will again if enough people dislike the current mechanics.
Oh and grow up.
Have you played the game since 2005? Loot isn't FFA, you get flagged if you steal loot or did you forget that point? |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:35:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal Have you played the game since 2005? Loot isn't FFA, you get flagged if you steal loot or did you forget that point?
Did you miss the whole conversation or are you trolling? That loot isn't ffa anymore is obvious as is ccp's patern of change. Loot was ffa and ccp said it would always be ffa. Then they added a way to sorta protect loot the whole time saying it would always be ffa. Now it's not ffa.
Salvage was ffa as long the wreck was empty. People cried that they couldn't salvage everything because lots of wrecks never got emptied, so they changed it. Now people cry because people steal wrecks they want, just like people wanted thier loot before. CCP says salvage will always be ffa. Where have I heard this before?
Ya see the patern yet? CCP says they will never change and then they change when people complain. Keep stealing loot, I mean salvage. It'll change. |
Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:50:00 -
[53]
Oh boy why just not make it so if you finish mission you can broadcast beacon to anyone in system to salvage after you confirm you not going to. So many ppl don't salvage that this would provide all the salvagers with more wrecks they can possibly handle and minimize the stealing of wrecks in natural way.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 23:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Onys Cissalc Now as to why this would affect newer players.
Back in the old days, people mined into jetcans and there was NO flagging mechanic for 'theft' whatsoever.
Because of this and the abundance of people mining into cans, ore theft was rife - anyone and everyone mining into a jetcan could expect to have to deal with an ore thief at one point or another; didn't matter if it was a BoBbit or just some two day old noob in his bantam.
So jetcan theft flagging was introduced. What do you think happened?
The thieves started avoiding stealing from people that they knew posed a threat to them (hint: they were in it to make money, not to annoy people; dying was not in their best interests as it was counter productive to making money - understand how the spice flows?).
They instead went after the smaller corps or younger players, or most preferably the players that weren't in a corp at all, because they knew the threat was far lower and thus they could 'steal in safety'.
So obviously, the younger players were hit most by this - unfortunately, because the masses complained about it incessantly, the mechanic was introduced. Now we still have scores of people complaining that their ore gets stolen if they mine into a jetcan, because they don't want to have to join large(r) corps to have safety in numbers. See how the spice flows?
The same applies in large part to missions as they stand right now. People are perfectly willing to steal the loot of individual mission runners along with salvaging all the wrecks, because they are fairly confident that the mission runner will not only not be able to kill them, but that they will be able to possibly kill the mission runner instead, get some free (rather valuable mind you) loot out of the npc's and maybe even some loot out of the mission runner, if not a ransom for their release.
You'll seldom see the same behaviour applied to mission runners belonging to larger corps, tho. See how ths spice flows?
So, now, let's pretend for a second that salvaging also gives a flag. The players that are experienced in this kind of gameplay (read: older) won't care for the mission runner being present, they'll simply go right ahead and take not only salvage but more actively loot as well, because they are, after all, in this to make isk. If they find large(r) corps or groups of players, on the other hand, they'll avoid them and rather go for a different probing result.
See how the spice flows?
Bears have, over the years, whined for changes that have done nothing but hurt younger players while bolstering older players residing in large corps. Some of these new players don't like the kinds of rules and/or restrictions that these corps place on them, or want to do things with a small, tight knit group of friends. The second this kind of salvage mechanic is introduced we will see a shift of focus from *everyone* to *individuals*. This would just result in more whining.
I'm tired of the whining
Ya know, I've never had someone steal any of my loot while I was stitting there in a command ship or a battleship. I have however had people tryin and ninja salvage while I blew up my own wrecks. It doesn't happen that often as I tend to stay in out of the way systems, but it's the principle. If someone steals from me in eve, I may not be able to call the cops but I should be able to shoot at them if I choose.
Second: miners can't exatcly shoot back when you steal from them. Most don't have a corp mate on hand to come shoot the thief either. I've set up ambushes before, but thieves know that's rare. Mission runners on the other hand have at least some kind of combat capability. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.07 23:37:00 -
[55]
Third: It seems to me that if a ninja salavger is really looking to make money, he's gonna go for people that run lvl 3's or 4's. Frigates and cruisers don't drop all that much in the way of salvage. A person running lvl 4's should know when to engage and when to hold fire. Players in lvl 3's maybe not so much, but they are probably in a t1 battlecruiser, so they learn a good lesson without much loss. |
Dal' Hassen
Minmatar 10045th Logistics Battalion
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Posted - 2009.02.08 00:07:00 -
[56]
These ninja salvaging threads are getting pointless, ya know, if you don't want your salvage to get picked up, pick it up yourself as you go along. Oh, someone is taking your 'hard earned' work, I wouldn't consider sitting enough km's back popping your targets at range 'Hard Work'
No matter what you say or how much you cry, b**tch and moan; while you do your missions, mine your asteroids and ice belts, I'm salvaging wrecks, because that's what I do, it's my chosen profession.
Also keep in mind that if the mechanic changes to me getting flagged for salvaging wrecks, I'm going to do it more and more, because as soon as the cost for salvage and rigs goes up even more, I'll be banking from it, and you, will be buying the rigs that I made with your salvage.
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Red Flag
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Posted - 2009.02.08 00:15:00 -
[57]
Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2218: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2219: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2212: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2223: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2225: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2226: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2232: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2233: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2310: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2311: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2312: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2322: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2333: Yes or No? Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2345: Yes or No?
Red Flag
Poet, Prophet, Pirate |
Kassa Daisho
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Posted - 2009.02.08 05:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Red Flag Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2218: Yes or No?
Could we change that to "Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage your wrecks for the next 4 hours. Yes or No?".
Anyway, I'd like to see salvaging flag you. Any salvager likely to get caught by a mission runner would be fighting that mission runner while he/she is also fighting an entire deadspace full of ships at the same time. You'd have to be insane to fight a ninja salvager that is piloting anything larger than a cruiser. Mission runners would become as good a target for thieves as miners currently are with a higher degree of risk and a higher profit margin.
Its not so much that I think the mission runners need the extra ISK from salvage, which we really don't, just that they need at least the opportunity to retaliate without being Concorded.
90% of the time, I wouldn't even consider fighting a ninja salvager during a mission. If a ninja salvager flies a BS/BC equipped with a large neut or two, a warp scrambler, and a decent tank, then they WILL win the resulting fight since you're already tanking the NPCs and probably down to 30-50% of your cap. The best tactic for ninja salvagers will still be: warp out and see if they feel like finishing your mission then odds are they'll leave to find an easier target. |
shamai
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Posted - 2009.02.08 10:49:00 -
[59]
Use the right tool for the job (Maurauder) and you will have no reason to cry
Salvage is fine, L2P
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4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:37:00 -
[60]
I run missions, I see ninja salvagers as an acceptable risk. I've been ninja salvaged - hey it happens. The current system is working as intended, just leave it alone and stop *****ing. Level 4s are great money, the ninjas adding a bit of a risk to that is entirely reasonable.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:49:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 08/02/2009 15:49:43 wrecks arent intended to be a reward for mission running, the loot + bounty are so stop *****ing around things which dont explicitly belong to you. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.14 07:29:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 08/02/2009 15:49:43 wrecks arent intended to be a reward for mission running, the loot + bounty are so stop *****ing around things which dont explicitly belong to you.
Why's my name and pic on the wreck if I don't own it? |
NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:56:00 -
[63]
Edited by: NightF0x on 14/02/2009 09:56:00
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 08/02/2009 15:49:43 wrecks arent intended to be a reward for mission running, the loot + bounty are so stop *****ing around things which dont explicitly belong to you.
Why's my name and pic on the wreck if I don't own it?
how thick is your skull. CCP has directly said Quote: If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding..
I bolded the part that you should pay attention to ------------------------------------
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JimBob Leeroy
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:38:00 -
[64]
risk/reward, no argo timer, then no risk, yet there is reward, and look it is the pro pvpers that don't want this? what is up with that?
give argo, give risk , risk/rewards!or just cut salvage needed for rigs by 50% so as to cut rewards,but the risk would be better for every one, and beware ppl that want this, the guy gets 15mins to come back in better ship, and probably will.
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:47:00 -
[65]
horrible idea is horrible. sorry...
I made it smaller for you Navigater...My name is in it. That's the minimum required for a sig if I remember correctly |
testalus rima
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Posted - 2009.02.15 20:23:00 -
[66]
bad idea... clear stages yourself more quickly. train skills, fly maurauder or team up - thats what the game is about. hangars for frighters asset and map |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.02.26 06:40:00 -
[67]
Ninja salvaging is theft.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:30:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Ninja salvaging is theft.
Says who?? You? CCP says its not.
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Rellik B00n
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:43:00 -
[69]
My Marauder was equipped with the following...
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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.26 11:43:00 -
[70]
Salvaging is a Skill, and it is not intended as a "Mission Reward".
Much like mining - The Salvager creates his loot by using his skills. Theres no part of the game that says "This wreck WILL drop THIS loot."
How can you own something that doesn't exist until it has been accessed and found by someone else?
You can't.
Infact, demanding that you have rights to the loot they've used their skills to recieve is downright backwards.
The suggestion of "reducing" Ninja-Salvaging is as ******ed as asking Asteroids if they want to be mined or not.
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Dotard
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.26 13:50:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Dotard on 26/02/2009 13:50:05 I really suck at math. Please, would someone check my figures and correct them if they are mistaken.
Locator agent + FullMetalJackass + scanned mission = Fun.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.26 14:06:00 -
[72]
Salvage is free for the taking. Feature is working as intended. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:51:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle Salvaging is a Skill, and it is not intended as a "Mission Reward".
Much like mining - The Salvager creates his loot by using his skills. Theres no part of the game that says "This wreck WILL drop THIS loot."
How can you own something that doesn't exist until it has been accessed and found by someone else?
You can't.
Infact, demanding that you have rights to the loot they've used their skills to recieve is downright backwards.
The suggestion of "reducing" Ninja-Salvaging is as ******ed as asking Asteroids if they want to be mined or not.
Aw, but I provided the wreck for salvaging. I don't provide the 'roids. No one owns a 'roid. My name and picture are on the wrecks I provide. If you shoot my wreck, concord will come own your ass. If you take loot from my wreck, I will own your ass. If you salvage my wreck, Concord shouldn't protect you.
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Ninja salvaging is theft.
Says who?? You? CCP says its not.
I own the wreck, therefor taking salvage from it is theft.
Originally by: Dotard Edited by: Dotard on 26/02/2009 13:50:05 I really suck at math. Please, would someone check my figures and correct them if they are mistaken.
Locator agent + FullMetalJackass + scanned mission = Fun.
Bring it.
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esc shk
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:42:00 -
[74]
So where do you mission run? I'll come clean up for you. From what I can see you want to deprive me of one of my sources of income.
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:46:00 -
[75]
Originally by: esc shk So where do you mission run? I'll come clean up for you. From what I can see you want to deprive me of one of my sources of income.
If you newbie can't handle high sec then you should stay out of there.
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esc shk
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Posted - 2009.03.01 19:06:00 -
[76]
Kay. I'll just jumpclone back to 0.0.
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.01 19:28:00 -
[77]
posting in a whine thread that won't die. again.
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esc shk
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Posted - 2009.03.01 21:23:00 -
[78]
C/D that whine threads about a legitimate profession suck
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Avuton
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:09:00 -
[79]
I dont get it. Stealing someones loot is obviously pvp so it should give the victim a chance to retaliate. I think all missionrunners agree on this one. The only people doing it are PVP'ers since they are directly stealing someone elses loot (I dont really care what the law says - its stealing if you take something someone else made without permission).
So PVP'ers are complaining that other people can shoot at them if they go looking for a fight.
I mean wouldnt this be win-win? PVE'ers get the chance to protect their wrecks and PVP'ers would get more PVP. The only ones that I can see losing from being able to protect your wrecks are cowards who want to hide behind concord and be able to have a no risk money making system. I mean even missionrunning has more risk since you have to risk an expensive ship to lag/stupidity and other players (suicide ganking).
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NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:16:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Avuton I dont get it. Stealing someones loot is obviously pvp so it should give the victim a chance to retaliate. I think all missionrunners agree on this one. The only people doing it are PVP'ers since they are directly stealing someone elses loot (I dont really care what the law says - its stealing if you take something someone else made without permission).
So PVP'ers are complaining that other people can shoot at them if they go looking for a fight.
I mean wouldnt this be win-win? PVE'ers get the chance to protect their wrecks and PVP'ers would get more PVP. The only ones that I can see losing from being able to protect your wrecks are cowards who want to hide behind concord and be able to have a no risk money making system. I mean even missionrunning has more risk since you have to risk an expensive ship to lag/stupidity and other players (suicide ganking).
Hmmm lets see, how can I put it any clearer from CCP's point of view. How about a direct quote...
Quote: If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding..
------------------------------------
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Avuton
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:30:00 -
[81]
Quote: If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding..
Ah so you are saying that the mini profession is actually horribly implemented and missionrunners are actually exploiting it since the vast majority of the salvage comes from missionrunners salvaging their own wrecks?
That is unless I'm just wrong and most of the salvage actually comes from people roaming around and finding random wrecks floating in space...
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.03.02 07:58:00 -
[82]
Originally by: RedSplat Simply make all Deadspaces small pockets of 0.0. The Missionrunners can shot at the ebil Ninja Salvagers.
That is what you want right?
Oh pls pls make this happen
well mannered a**h*** |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.02 08:36:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Avuton I dont get it. Stealing someones loot is obviously pvp so it should give the victim a chance to retaliate. I think all missionrunners agree on this one. The only people doing it are PVP'ers since they are directly stealing someone elses loot (I dont really care what the law says - its stealing if you take something someone else made without permission).
So PVP'ers are complaining that other people can shoot at them if they go looking for a fight.
I mean wouldnt this be win-win? PVE'ers get the chance to protect their wrecks and PVP'ers would get more PVP. The only ones that I can see losing from being able to protect your wrecks are cowards who want to hide behind concord and be able to have a no risk money making system. I mean even missionrunning has more risk since you have to risk an expensive ship to lag/stupidity and other players (suicide ganking).
This exactly.
Originally by: NightF0x Hmmm lets see, how can I put it any clearer from CCP's point of view. How about a direct quote...
Quote: If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding..
Yeah they used to say somthin like that about nomal loot too. Now when you loot a jet can it flags you. Same arguement. Guess what got changed?
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.02 19:17:00 -
[84]
Quote: I dont get it. Stealing someones loot is obviously pvp so it should give the victim a chance to retaliate. I think all missionrunners agree on this one. The only people doing it are PVP'ers since they are directly stealing someone elses loot (I dont really care what the law says - its stealing if you take something someone else made without permission).
So PVP'ers are complaining that other people can shoot at them if they go looking for a fight. Neutral
Those looking to gank can always just nab loot
Quote: I mean wouldnt this be win-win? PVE'ers get the chance to protect their wrecks and PVP'ers would get more PVP. The only ones that I can see losing from being able to protect your wrecks are cowards who want to hide behind concord and be able to have a no risk money making system. I mean even missionrunning has more risk since you have to risk an expensive ship to lag/stupidity and other players (suicide ganking).
You mean like how missionrunners hide behind concord for their no-risk money making system? There is no risk in missionrunning, a decent permaboost setup can tank anything, and emergency warp saves your ass if you lag out. Also, missionships can be fully insured. They're only expensive if you choose to put expensive mods on them to make missions go faster...much like how salvagers often fit their ships expensively to salvage faster (Salvage tackle rigs aren't cheap). Oh, also, we can't tank...anything, so unlike a missionrunner, if a ninja gets tackled by warp scram rats, he's dead. 10 seconds of fire from a BS rat (if for some reason you stop speed tanking it) and you're dead.
Then there's the matter of warping your covert ops scanship into a recon 3/3 cloud...
If you want to fight back against salvagers, mission in lowsec.
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.02 19:48:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Johli on 02/03/2009 19:48:25 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=984627&page=3#79
Let the "CCP doesn't know about EVE" flaming begin.
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Ironlenny
Minmatar Bittercup LTD Socius Inter Nos
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:11:00 -
[86]
Originally by: CCP Navigator Guys and girls,
Salvaging wrecks, as it stands right now, will not flag an aggression timer. GM Ytterbium discusses the issue herestating:
"You can still salvage other people wrecks without CONCORD intervening. To make it clear again, doing so is not considered an exploit and stays within normal game mechanics."
This is a normal game mechanic and unless you can put down a well thought out reason as to why this should be changed then it will remain a valid game mechanic.
Trolling and flaming each other will not get it changed.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:34:00 -
[87]
As the people in favour of changing salvage mechanics insist on two concurrent threads on the first page, I'm forced to repeat myself here:
Cans show when they are empty, salvage doesn't; the act of salvaging "creates" the salvage, and so the owner is whoever can make the wreck turn into salvage materials. More importantly, it's whoever can perform this conversion process FIRST.
Cans in my opinion shouldn't flag either, but then I'm a believer in no Concord response and instead sentry guns all over high sec. Not going to happen, but I feel it'd drive the point home about highsec not being totally safe when a 50 man pirate gang rolls into a 0.8 system spider-tanking the faction navy and sentry guns and lays waste to everything in their path. It'd also be a hell of a lot of fun to be a part of, and would probably encourage a lot more new players to get involved in PVP early rather than being caught in the evil clutches of the highsec mission runners and miners to develop their loathing of us lowsec denizens.
What can I say? I have a dream...
As for protecting yourself from being scanned out in a mission, here's a few tips:
Salvage and loot your wrecks. These are easier to scan than your ship is. Only deploy drones when you have to. These are easier to scan than your ship is. -
Originally by: The Cuckoo Good luck in defending idiotic and greedy noobs, as far as I'm concerned, you are their champion.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.03 02:58:00 -
[88]
It's not my fault this topic keeps gettin brought up in thread after thread. Guess alot of people dislike the current salvage mechanics.
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.03 03:06:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass It's not my fault this topic keeps gettin brought up in thread after thread. Guess alot of people dislike the current salvage mechanics.
Aren't you the one bumping each topic with your theories about how CCP devs don't know anything about the game?
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Pvt Public7
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.03 03:40:00 -
[90]
Allow tractor beams on any can/wreck please. --- SWA was here IAC is a loser |
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.03 10:45:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Johli
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass It's not my fault this topic keeps gettin brought up in thread after thread. Guess alot of people dislike the current salvage mechanics.
Aren't you the one bumping each topic with your theories about how CCP devs don't know anything about the game?
Are you posting in the same threads?
No the devs don't all know everything about thier game. Take fof missiles for instance. Real life versions can tell who's friendly and who's not. Eve versions go after the nearest target.
Depending on who you ask at ccp, you'll get both answers as to how they work in game.
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bettybettybettybetty
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Posted - 2009.03.03 11:04:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Johli
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass It's not my fault this topic keeps gettin brought up in thread after thread. Guess alot of people dislike the current salvage mechanics.
Aren't you the one bumping each topic with your theories about how CCP devs don't know anything about the game?
Are you posting in the same threads?
No the devs don't all know everything about thier game. Take fof missiles for instance. Real life versions can tell who's friendly and who's not. Eve versions go after the nearest target.
Depending on who you ask at ccp, you'll get both answers as to how they work in game.
How does the fact that a missile works differently in-game than it does in real life (which is due to game balancing) mean that ccp don't know everything about their game?
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.03 13:01:00 -
[93]
Originally by: bettybettybettybetty Trolling alt pretends to fail at reading comprehension.
Point remains, if you ask ccp how fof missiles work, in game, you'll get 2 different answers depending on who answers.
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Wardo21
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Posted - 2009.03.03 15:58:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: bettybettybettybetty Trolling alt pretends to fail at reading comprehension.
Point remains, if you ask ccp how fof missiles work, in game, you'll get 2 different answers depending on who answers.
Welcome to the complex world of EVE. No single Dev/GM can know all of the finite details for all of the game mechanics. Get used to it, it's only getting more and more complicated as new content comes out.
You want to know how missiles work, ask a dev that programmed that chunk of code.
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bettybettybettybetty
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Posted - 2009.03.03 18:13:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: bettybettybettybetty Trolling alt pretends to fail at reading comprehension.
Point remains, if you ask ccp how fof missiles work, in game, you'll get 2 different answers depending on who answers.
The receptionist doesn't count.
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Kiay Stryx
Gallente Phoenix Mandate
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Posted - 2009.03.03 19:30:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Kiay Stryx on 03/03/2009 19:33:22 This is getting old, fast.
The pilot does not lay claim to the wreck. Simple. Its a wreck, its useless. In EVE there is even a profession that is skilled at salvaging these wrecks. They go about doing so while respecting the other pilots claim on the items within.
That is the idea behind the system.
But, this is EVE, people have the right to steal, loot, pillage, scam all they want, if they want.
What ever your opinion, the original idea in the OP doesn't work. Think of something better.
~Stryx
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.03.03 19:33:00 -
[97]
A miner sits in a belt - mining lasers pointing at an asteroid.
A second miner enters the belt and points his mining lasers at the same asteroid.
Should the second miner have to request permission from the first miner? Should the second miner be flagged to the first miner for stealing his minerals? While some people will surely say "Yes, that would be funny" - most people will agree this isn't the way things are supposed to work. Neither miner owns the asteroid. Both miners have the same rights to use thier equipment and skills to turn the asteroid into minerals.
Wrecks are like asteroids. The pilot who created the wreck has ownership over the loot in the wreck, but that pilot does not have ownership over the wreck itself. The wreck is like an asteroid. It belongs to noone, and anyone is able to use thier equipment and skills to "create" salvage from that rock, in the same way a miner "creates" minerals from an asteroid. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.03.03 19:41:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri A miner sits in a belt - mining lasers pointing at an asteroid.
A second miner enters the belt and points his mining lasers at the same asteroid.
Should the second miner have to request permission from the first miner? Should the second miner be flagged to the first miner for stealing his minerals? While some people will surely say "Yes, that would be funny" - most people will agree this isn't the way things are supposed to work. Neither miner owns the asteroid. Both miners have the same rights to use thier equipment and skills to turn the asteroid into minerals.
Wrecks are like asteroids. The pilot who created the wreck has ownership over the loot in the wreck, but that pilot does not have ownership over the wreck itself. The wreck is like an asteroid. It belongs to noone, and anyone is able to use thier equipment and skills to "create" salvage from that rock, in the same way a miner "creates" minerals from an asteroid.
I was just about to ask this same thing...
Does the first Miner to jump into a belt automatically "tag" all the asteroids, so that any other Miner to enter would be flagged for mining them?
As for the dreaded Ninja Salvagers, why not bring a friend to clean up behind you... or why not fit a tractor and salvager to your mission ship and clean up after yourself.
While it's slow going, you can use a Destroyer with half guns and half salvage gear. Or I use a Domi, and just let the drones kill while I clean up. Last guy pops, I loot the wreck, and the salvage is collected by the time the drones are recalled.
"No mess, no fuss" --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
R4d1o4ct1v3
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.03.03 19:45:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Wrecks are like asteroids. The pilot who created the wreck has ownership over the loot in the wreck, but that pilot does not have ownership over the wreck itself. The wreck is like an asteroid. It belongs to noone, and anyone is able to use thier equipment and skills to "create" salvage from that rock, in the same way a miner "creates" minerals from an asteroid.
I think everybody has pretty much gotten how it actually works. The discussion is about how we would like it to work.
And no, wrecks are (or rather: should be) nothing like asteroids. Asteroids are spawned out of thin air, never requiring any effort on any pilots part to come into existence. It makes no sense that anybody could claim ownership over a piece of rock that just happened to spawn into existence.
A wreck only exists because a pilot went through the trouble of blowing a ship up. It is not unreasonable for that pilot to at least be able to argue that he should be able to claim the resources generated by his efforts.
This is what we are doing. Reciting over and over how this is currently working is not actually helpful in this discussion.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.03 20:36:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 03/03/2009 20:37:51
I'm here! What did I miss? Name's Tchell, Empress of Dodixie. Hi, how ya doin'? Ninja Edit: Oh, right. I forgot to say it. I am the answer to Ninja Salvaging. Why? I just do it better.
We're Recruiting! |
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.03 20:40:00 -
[101]
Originally by: R4d1o4ct1v3 A wreck only exists because a pilot went through the trouble of blowing a ship up.
True, however, the loot is the 'prize' and the salvage is a 'byproduct'. Mission Runners have their prize, should they wish to take it, and anyone can take the byproduct, providing they are fast enough to do so.
We're Recruiting! |
Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.03.03 20:46:00 -
[102]
Fakt is that the current mechanic is broken: - looting flags + salvaging does not flag
To fix it i suppose one of the following ways: - looting + salvaging flags - looting + salvaging does not flag
I know some argumented that salvage is like asteroids and no one owns it. So why should the killer own his loot? Its still more likely that this stuff was the property of the killed one instead of being the killers property. Or is it okay and well designed that the killers corp owns loot? If this is the truth than also the salvage should become his property because basically both sorts of items will be extracted from the same wreck.
And people please stop arguing idiotic things like: "haha for this carebaears when they realize that flagging for salvaging brings death to them" - the truth is, that most ninja salvagers avoid giving their victims the ability to shoot back because they simply avoid touching their loot. It would be so easy to start blinking but most of them simply avoid this.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.03 20:54:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kel Nissa Fakt is that the current mechanic is broken: - looting flags + salvaging does not flag
To fix it i suppose one of the following ways: - looting + salvaging flags - looting + salvaging does not flag
Truth be told, the items in the wreck should belong exclusively to the person who's ship was just blown up, his corpmates, etc., and not automatically become 'owned' by the person who blew the ship up. This is how it works when you shoot another player's ship currently, and that mechanic hasn't changed. So, why don't we just make the NPC Pirates' loot continue to be owned by them, and that would solve all of our problems?
Oh, right. Then, Mission Runners would complain that the loot was being stolen without an aggression flag, and then they'd complain about that.
Make NPC Pirates and their corpmates more 'intelligent' and make them loot/salvage the cans/wrecks, and then you'll be more even when you're talking about broken mechanics. Why, just because it's an NPC does a mechanic have to be different?
We're Recruiting! |
NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.03.03 23:20:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kel Nissa I know some argumented that salvage is like asteroids and no one owns it. So why should the killer own his loot? Its still more likely that this stuff was the property of the killed one instead of being the killers property. Or is it okay and well designed that the killers corp owns loot? If this is the truth than also the salvage should become his property because basically both sorts of items will be extracted from the same wreck.
If CCP goes the route that they have been talking about, there won't even been loot to worry about. Be blessed that you get what you get now because in the future you may not.
I've already argued the points that CCP Dev's have already came in here and said, basically that nothing is going to change. ------------------------------------
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.04 00:06:00 -
[105]
Originally by: NightF0x I've already argued the points that CCP Dev's have already came in here and said, basically that nothing is going to change.
And so we come full circle. It changed before, it'll change again as more and more people get fed up with the "new" old mechanic.
Funny thing about combat. The winner gets the spoils. Unless the other guy can hide behind concord.
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R4d1o4ct1v3
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.03.04 00:49:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Originally by: R4d1o4ct1v3 A wreck only exists because a pilot went through the trouble of blowing a ship up.
True, however, the loot is the 'prize' and the salvage is a 'byproduct'. Mission Runners have their prize, should they wish to take it, and anyone can take the byproduct, providing they are fast enough to do so.
That's how it currently works, and I get the idea, but it's all just so messed up.
All this salvaging business does is allow unskilled pilots to make a lot of ISK without having to do more than learn the basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you? They could just as well drop cans filled with ISK at random moons.
Meanwhile, the mission runners generating all those wrecks are having to watch random people run of with a huge part of the profit their work could be earning them, powerless to do anything about it. I mean, can you honestly blame us for being a bit annoyed, seeing the results of our work getting hauled away by some random freeloader?
And yes, I know it's not really "mine", but it's there because of my work.
I wish we could just choose not to leave wrecks. Then we could choose not to deal with this nonsense.
Anyways, I'm done with this issue, finding something less annoying to do.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.04 01:05:00 -
[107]
Quote: basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you?
I'm going to start keeping a tally of missionrunners who whine about how easy ninjaing is. My ironymeter is overloading.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.04 01:15:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you?
I'm going to start keeping a tally of missionrunners who whine about how easy ninjaing is. My ironymeter is overloading.
Why do you care what mission runners do? If mission running is so easy, why don't you do it?
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bettybettybettybetty
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Posted - 2009.03.04 01:26:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you?
I'm going to start keeping a tally of missionrunners who whine about how easy ninjaing is. My ironymeter is overloading.
Why do you care what mission runners do? If mission running is so easy, why don't you do it?
Because it's boring as sin.
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.04 01:53:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you?
I'm going to start keeping a tally of missionrunners who whine about how easy ninjaing is. My ironymeter is overloading.
Why do you care what mission runners do? If mission running is so easy, why don't you do it?
Probably because you care so profusely what the salvage ninjas do. I'm sure if you spent the time missioning and earning all those LPs and bounties and sec status (depending) than whining on eve-o about a mechanic that works perfectly fine except for the few who continue to whine about anything that threatens your oh so precious and safely obtained isk.
You first whine about how there is no risk involved, no pvp, etc. Then you decide to look at yourself: mission running, with it's pvp-less isk making, no risk involved, etc... sounding familiar.
Then you start ranting about how CCP contradicts itself, how the devs don't agree with each other, etc. It was hilarious before, and now with the dev reply, it is FABULOUSLY hilarious. And ironic.
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.03.04 09:54:00 -
[111]
Quote: All this salvaging business does is allow unskilled pilots to make a lot of ISK without having to do more than learn the basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you?
Like real bin rakers, we need to add the risk of disease. 1% chance on an unsuccesful salvage attempt that you get infected with some wierd space-borne virus that eats brains. Or makes you want to eat brains. ---
Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.04 12:57:00 -
[112]
I'll ask again: Why do any of you care that people run missions? What are they doing that hurts you?
It's obvious why someone running a mission dislikes a ninja salvager.
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Dotard
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.04 13:49:00 -
[113]
Sheez...
There are things you can do about the ninja. Whining on the forums is just one of them.
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.03.04 15:10:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you?
I'm going to start keeping a tally of missionrunners who whine about how easy ninjaing is. My ironymeter is overloading.
QFT...astro triangulation rank 5, astro pinpointing rank 5 and signal acquisition rank 8 anyone ? Not to mention actually having to learn how to scan properly once you have some skills trained.
well mannered a**h*** |
Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.03.04 15:13:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Cedric Diggory
Quote: All this salvaging business does is allow unskilled pilots to make a lot of ISK without having to do more than learn the basic scanning techniques. Absolutely no risk, but potentially huge rewards. Sound right to you?
Like real bin rakers, we need to add the risk of disease. 1% chance on an unsuccesful salvage attempt that you get infected with some wierd space-borne virus that eats brains. Or makes you want to eat brains.
Oh yeah...I like this, zombie salvagers
well mannered a**h*** |
Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.03.04 15:46:00 -
[116]
mmm, brains wrecks ---
Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.04 16:40:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I'll ask again: Why do any of you care that people run missions? What are they doing that hurts you?
Nothing actually hurts us. It's what they do that fuels us, or rather what fuels my ship.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass It's obvious why someone running a mission dislikes a ninja salvager.
I'm not content with "dislike". I'm looking for spitting, screaming, crying and unbridled hate. Feel free to post any or all of that in local, or even a PM, and I'm one happy Empress.
We're Recruiting! |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.04 16:50:00 -
[118]
There is no problem with ninjasalvaging, if you don't like it, stop running missions.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.03.04 19:03:00 -
[119]
> There is no problem with ninjasalvaging, if you don't like it, stop running missions.
The chance that there is a problem with ninjasalvaging is higher then the chance that there is no problem. Both chances are probably low, but in reality there is a tendency that ninjasalvaging is a problem.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.04 19:12:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Kel Nissa > There is no problem with ninjasalvaging, if you don't like it, stop running missions.
The chance that there is a problem with ninjasalvaging is higher then the chance that there is no problem. Both chances are probably low, but in reality there is a tendency that ninjasalvaging is a problem.
A: Your post made no sense. Learn statistics before trying to use probabilities.
B: The only problem with ninja salvaging is carebears (I mean this in the nastiest way possible) who think that eve is a single player game which should be entirely focused on them and their ability to make isk. Let me give you a hint: EVE is a multiplayer game which encourages scamming, pirating, stealing, and anything else. Furthermore, salvaging is NOT a bonus to mission running - it is its own profession, and should require considerable skill investment (not a single skill as it is currently). Now, please go back to WOW because I feel overall you will be happier there.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.04 20:58:00 -
[121]
I'll ask a third time: What is the problem with people running missions?
You all claim to be so enlightened, answer the question.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.03.04 21:26:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Kel Nissa on 04/03/2009 21:26:44 Fullmetal: its evil per default, even when most are mission runners (and if its just with their alts).
On the other side: why is it wrong when people asume that highsec is save? I always thought that this is the primary definition of highsec.
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.04 23:24:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I'll ask a third time: What is the problem with people running missions?
You all claim to be so enlightened, answer the question.
Other than it it's boring, too damned safe, and a stupid insane source of isk, nothing really.
If I didn't have a good, steady source of isk here (if I ever rat, so like never), I would be in empire doing missions. Of course, avoiding hubs, stuff that all mission runners should attempt to do.
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CCP Mitnal
C C P CCP
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Posted - 2009.03.05 01:47:00 -
[124]
Locked.
Nothing has been added to this thread, asides arguments based on playing styles.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email |
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