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Asher Brood
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.04.21 19:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Even the full premium on say BC is woefully low. (Think it's 33mill payback on a mid tier Harbinger).
Can't CCP introduce a dynamic rate based on inflation??
Discuss. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
340
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Posted - 2012.04.21 19:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
I thought they did this already but I don't know how often it updates. I agree with you though.
I'm only flying small ships until insurance catches up. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
232
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Posted - 2012.04.21 19:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
They do have dynamic insurance payouts, but there will be a lag in the effectiveness of this, it probably happens every leap year given the track record of CCP. |
Senarian Tyme
Serenity Rising LLC Vanguard.
2
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Posted - 2012.04.21 19:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
While I agree that insurance payments do not help keep pace during periods of steady inflation, there is another factor to consider.
Much attention has been given lately to isk flow into the overall game economy from incursions, ratting, and missioning, but insurance payments have been less discussed. Using the example of a drake funded by Ratting Incursions or Missioning (RIM), ie isk injected into economy from thin air (ie concord, insurance, etc).
Pilot Generates 60m via RIM Pilot gains 60m EVE Economy Gains 60m Pilot purchases Drake Pilot losses 50m EVE Economy loses 0.635m (Market fees/Taxes) Pilot insures Drake Pilot loses 9.8m EVE Economy loses 9.8m (as of 21 Apr 2012) Pilot losses Drake Pilot gets insurance payment Pilot gains 32.8m EVE Economy gains 32.8m (as of 21 Apr 2012)
Totals: Piliot 33m Gain EVE Economy gain 82.36m
Further raising the amount of isk paid out in an insurance case would only further accelerate the inflation rates in EVE by furthering the money supply.
This is definately a catch 22 for CCP. They put in insurance to help facilitate pvp, but pvp insurance is likely the primary source of insurance payments. Does anyone have any postings from CCP regarding insurance related ISK flow totals in the game? I am curious to see exactly how much ISK flow is generated via this a month.
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Vala Mendak
The Emporium of Madness
0
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Posted - 2012.04.21 19:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Asher Brood wrote:Even the full premium on say BC is woefully low. (Think it's 33mill payback on a mid tier Harbinger).
Can't CCP introduce a dynamic rate based on inflation??
Discuss.
This was already done back in 2010.
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=1820
Specifically:
Quote:Yes, ship insurance will now revalue itself periodically based on a trimmed mean of the ship's manufacturing materials global market weighted average prices. This means the insurance quote when you are buying insurance will be now estimated and may change if the payout occurs during the next insurance period. Dark things come in packages of many assorted sizes. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
341
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Posted - 2012.04.21 20:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vala Mendak wrote:Asher Brood wrote:Even the full premium on say BC is woefully low. (Think it's 33mill payback on a mid tier Harbinger).
Can't CCP introduce a dynamic rate based on inflation??
Discuss. This was already done back in 2010. http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=1820Specifically: Quote:Yes, ship insurance will now revalue itself periodically based on a trimmed mean of the ship's manufacturing materials global market weighted average prices. This means the insurance quote when you are buying insurance will be now estimated and may change if the payout occurs during the next insurance period.
What are the time periods that they are revalued?
What amount of time is averaged into the weighted average?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Minabunny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
55
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Posted - 2012.04.21 20:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't even bother with insurance |
Ch3244
Azule Dragoons Sspectre
93
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Insurance is for people that die. |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
558
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Id rather see insurance removed tbh. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
646
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Realistically speaking, to truly make a dent the insurance costs/payouts would need to change several times a day. To appear stable weekly might not let things get too out of whack. To let it slide monthly, in the aggregate it becomes unwieldy. To make the mistake of quartely adjustments, it becomes meaningless. This speaks to the instability of the market itself. In the interest of the old adage, "Be sure it's plugged in before you call the electrician," money supply has to be addressed before anyone monkeys with the peripheria.
One has to wonder if having an insurance system without a certified banking system is workable at all. EVE's economy isn't really an economy without a banking system. Here it can be said it's "only nine years old." That's not very long for an economy to exist to understand its intrinsic qualities. We do have this HUGE capitalist system IRL that might inform upon this system...but EVE has these "rules" that can't be broken. So....
A.) This makes discussing the EVE economy as though it IS one deceptive, if not outright ridiculous.
B.) We may be watching a Roman Candle economy. It starts out kinda slow then fizzles out altogether.
We won't know till we get there. Band-Aids are just that. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
342
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Id rather see insurance removed tbh.
They nerfed insurance a few expansions ago. Sure enough there was a decrease in pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
558
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Posted - 2012.04.21 22:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Rico Minali wrote:Id rather see insurance removed tbh. They nerfed insurance a few expansions ago. Sure enough there was a decrease in pvp.
I havnt seen any reduction in pvp. I am ceo of a pvp corp. Its all we do, and all we have done for years. So I dont agree. Less ganking in hisec yes, but not less pvp.
Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
648
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Posted - 2012.04.22 00:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Asher Brood wrote:Even the full premium on say BC is woefully low. (Think it's 33mill payback on a mid tier Harbinger). Can't CCP introduce a dynamic rate based on inflation?? Discuss. Okay, discuss. Adjusting insurance rates based on inflation is like trying to develop an Olympic form for a sprinter with one leg shorter than the other.
What we're talking about here is the great bugaboo that haunts all real economies. Inflation is simply put, too much currency in circulation chasing too few goods for sale. The result seems to be that prices rise to ridiculous heights, but actually, the money is so lowered in value it takes that much more of it to equal the previous value.
Value is two things: What is it worth intrinsically? What is it worth in currency. Take your battlecruiser for instance. If your BC isn't considered a useful ship for what you do when you play, if it doesn't serve a function making it desireable, it is of questionable worth at best. At worst, no matter what you paid for it, it's worthless. (There are a few ships that do fit this description.) However, if you paid 45 million ISK for the thing, you can't help but tell yourself it's worth "at least" 45 million ISK. Customer preference establishes the one - demand. Production costs, and profit desire establishes the other - the price.
You can insist no matter what, since you paid 45 mill for the BC, then it's worth 45 mill, by God! But, if your intention is to run incursions with a fleet that's not accepting BCs under any condition, you get no value from your investment. It's inert. You may find a use for it. There may BE a use for it, but it's certainly not the use you intended for it. So, given this, it's probably best to use two words, "value" and "worth." Insurance tends to deal with "value". What the thing is worth to you is a personal problem. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
648
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Posted - 2012.04.22 00:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Okay, so, CCP assigns value for ships with regard to the value of the ORE it takes to build one - not the refined building alloy, but the ORE. Ipso facto, insurance payouts are based on ORE value. In the EVE economy there is no limit to the introduction of currency into the economy. As a result, it's systemic that there will be too much currency chasing too few goods. ISK into circulation is limitless. Ore processed into manufacturing saleable ships is limited. ISK will continually lose its value. Ore will continually become more expensive, and as a result so will manufactured goods.
Normal economies use a combination of taxation, absorbing money in circulation through a central bank, and controlling the money supply to keep inflation in check, or to bring it under control. Since ISK has two uses in EVE, the first of which is as a points-reward system, in order to control the money supply NPC bounties, and mission rewards would have to cease. However, that would only maintain the current level of inflation. Taking currency out of circulation can't be done as there is no mechanism to do it. All that could be done is wait until manufacturing catches up.
You might add to this the ganking of miners will surely reduce the amount of ore coming onto the market. This in turn will make manufacturing slow down, rather than keep it's "normal" pace. Goods will become rare, raising their market value on the supply and demand dynamic, and the result would be ISK would continue to lose its value, if maybe at a slower rate.
Ultimately, insurance payouts are based on inflation as those are the real numbers and that's how they're being derived. Insurance won't have much to do with what you're paying for a ship, however. And, artificially increasing insurance payouts to try to meet the distorted market values will only add to increasing the amount of ISK in circulation.
This, my friends, is why you actually LOVE a stable economy. Will unconstrained ganking of miners cause the collapse of the EVE economy? There are those involved in trying to organize this to do just that. Is it EVE's Achilles Heel? We're about to find out, aren't we? I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
278
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Posted - 2012.04.22 00:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
it would be nice if the price-index for insurances would get updated at least weekly. But it seems it's already more then a month, closer to two months even since it's been updated. CCP, fix the forum's image tags http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á visit at http://bit.ly/wdatt |
Asher Brood
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.04.22 01:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Insurance in real life is index linked to the value of the goods you wish to insure... No problem there.
Add inflation / or deflation.
If my house was valued at xxx last year and was now xxx+20%, the insurance company would at least say that you need to pay a bit more this time round - and that they would cover the inflated value of the thing.
OK so the premiums go up to cover the cost. We pay for it. We pay more but at least the top level insurance scheme should be pretty decent; and give a good return. At the moment I can't pay out a brickload for a lowly 50% return on my ship loss. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
650
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Posted - 2012.04.22 03:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Remove insurance: problem solved.
--Will Support Your Terrible Forum Thread For ISK-- |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
585
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Posted - 2012.04.22 03:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Remove Insurance all together but the price index remains
When you lose a ship, you are charged that price. No money comes out, you are charged an extra incentive to not lose it.
Gankers are charged for the loss of their boat and then charged for the cost of the ship they shot. Extra incentive to find better targets and factor in the cost.
Simple, effective isk sink. Its harsh, but there should be an associated cost to not lose the ships you own otherwise...where is the risk when you just throw it away? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
345
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Posted - 2012.04.22 03:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Cearain wrote:Rico Minali wrote:Id rather see insurance removed tbh. They nerfed insurance a few expansions ago. Sure enough there was a decrease in pvp. I havnt seen any reduction in pvp. I am ceo of a pvp corp. Its all we do, and all we have done for years. So I dont agree. Less ganking in hisec yes, but not less pvp.
Then you disagree with CCPs statistics. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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