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Iceman10117
7th Space Cavalry
1
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Posted - 2012.04.22 18:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was thinking about the idea of the rebalancing of the (useless) defender missiles. The only ships that use them are the rats. How about buffing them a little bit and give them some new properties that make them useful. Imagine a fleet warps in and "deploys" a drake itted with defender missiles. The defender missiles kill at least some of the incoming missiles and protects his fleet of some of the incoming damage. The defender missiles should also be able to shoot missiles agressing his fleet / corpmates.
Greetings Ice |
Smart Azz
Brothers At Arms Hades.
167
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Posted - 2012.04.22 18:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
In an ideal world this would work, however imagine the coding issues and the sheer amount of metal in the air it would have to distinguish from in the larger fights.
Honestly they should just remove them |
Mark Androcius
35
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Posted - 2012.04.22 18:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well a purpose fit ship, with only 1 task ( to shoot as many missiles out of the sky ) is not such a bad idea. Coding for it is not that hard either, the server is constantly aware what is out there, where it is going and who it came from. Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
124
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Posted - 2012.04.22 19:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Does this include STDs??? Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
Mark Androcius
35
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Posted - 2012.04.22 20:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Does this include STDs???
Sexual Transmitted Diseases? I hope not. Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Yatama Kautsuo
State War Academy Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2012.04.22 20:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:Does this include STDs??? Sexual Transmitted Diseases? I hope not.
i had to laugh. good job sir. allthough i am so new i don't even now what STDs are supposed to be |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
980
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Posted - 2012.04.22 21:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
A very simple and easy fix would be to introduce specialized "Defender launchers" with very easy fitting requirements and the added benefit that they would not count as weapons, and thus could be placed in utility highslots without sacrifing firepower. -.- |
Baljos Arnjak
Dark Praetorian Order
17
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Posted - 2012.04.22 22:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Well a purpose fit ship, with only 1 task ( to shoot as many missiles out of the sky ) is not such a bad idea. Coding for it is not that hard either, the server is constantly aware what is out there, where it is going and who it came from.
While what you say is true, coding for that wouldn't be too difficult, BUT it would be very CPU intensive and that leads to more lag or higher TiDi percentages and very unhappy hamsters. Each defender missile would need to have a small AI running that determines what that missile should do. It would go something like this:
Are any missiles targeting my parent ship? You'd have to look at the parent ship's data and see which missiles have it targeted (should be communicated when someone opens fire with missiles and stored in your ship data). Yes - Calculate the distance to each one and target the closest one. No - Next step. Are any missiles targeting members of my fleet? For this you'd have to query every ship in your fleet and make a list of all potential targets which could be thousands in large fights. Yes - Evaluate each potential target to find the best one to go after (is it in range, is it the closest one, etc). Then target that one. No - Keep looking for targets eg: start the process over.
If this were to be implemented, London would be a wasteland because CCP's server farm would go nuclear. It's a cool idea, but not really feasible. |
Tyson Gallane
Political Warfare Executive
4
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Posted - 2012.04.22 23:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
A further issue would be: Even if they could do it, would it be a good idea?
Do missiles need another nerf in PvP?
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Imortal valkyrie
The Drunken Empire Fatal Ascension
2
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Posted - 2012.04.22 23:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hac fleet engages drake fleet. Hac fleet has brought 10 "defender drakes" or other ships filled with defenders. Hac fleet wins
Depending on how effective they became It would render certain fleet types useless, then again it would stop drake blobs and reduce lag caused by missiles.
I'm wondering if they could do something to combat drones, such as have the ability to detect incoming missiles and attempt to intercept them when set to orbit your ship. Then take defender missiles out of the game as they are no longer needed. This way yes missiles get a nerf but at the cost of some drones not being used for dps, resulting in a fleet not taking as much missile damage but also losing valuable dps themselves. Just an idea. |
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Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
500
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Posted - 2012.04.23 00:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:A very simple and easy fix would be to introduce specialized "Defender launchers" with very easy fitting requirements and the added benefit that they would not count as weapons, and thus could be placed in utility highslots without sacrifing firepower.
This would turn Faction ships into monsters. 2 high slots pumping out defender missiles and your hard points pumping out DPS.
No caldari/drake pilot would ever go anywhere near them I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
223
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Posted - 2012.04.23 01:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think this would be a good idea. However, FoF missiles need a buff as well to counter such ships. Logically speaking, because no clear trajectory can be determined, Defender missiles will be less effective against ships using FoF missiles.
FoF missiles wouldn't be as strong as regular missiles, but should be a viable option. |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
310
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Posted - 2012.04.23 01:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:I think this would be a good idea. However, FoF missiles need a buff as well to counter such ships. Logically speaking, because no clear trajectory can be determined, Defender missiles will be less effective against ships using FoF missiles.
FoF missiles wouldn't be as strong as regular missiles, but should be a viable option.
Don't FoF missiles have a nasty habit of hitting your friends in the process? Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |
ASuperVillain
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.04.23 07:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ahh the lowly Defender, I think the T2 defender need to be re-envisioned, the best comparison would be to draw from literature, the Reality Dysfunction series was a hard Sci-Fi space opera, well, at least till the dead started coming back... But it had at least one huge space battle, which was accomplished by combat 'wasps' self-contained deployed smart networked weapon/defense missiles. Essentially cruise missiles packed with as much whiz-bang firepower as possible, that didn't JUST go boom, but marshaled its firepower strategically, spitting out pulsars, nukes, ecm, kinetics and when expended THEN going boom.
So the "new" T2 defender might be coded more as attacking all missiles in space at once? Damage distance dependent? Are the missiles tracked in relation to one another on the servers? So that a HUGE "explosion" radius and speed would be effective but only missiles damaged? Perhaps having someone targeted would allow you to do shoot downs on their missiles? Something that just plain doesn't SUCK, perhaps a little OP even, since defenders have sucked since, well forever?
'... oh man, don't bother with Drake fleets we got locked down by 2 kestrals flying with those T2 defenders we scored 0 dps...'
Now I exaggerate for dramatic license. But anything in EvE needs a little love itGÇÖs the defender.
-ASV
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Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
142
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Posted - 2012.04.23 07:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
They wanted to propose a new destroyer.
Slap some defender missiles on the new caldari destroyer, some anti-projectile, anti-hybrid, anti-lasers on the min, gall, amarr versions, respectively.
Reduce incoming shots from each source by one (8 turrets effectively becomes 7, or y'know...maybe more? I'm not a dev!). Larger the fleet they go against, the stronger these dinky little ships become.
Or y'know..just get rid of 'em.
Buffing them without adding other anti-weapon weapons would just be a missile nerf. |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
981
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Posted - 2012.04.23 08:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Baljos Arnjak wrote:Mark Androcius wrote:Well a purpose fit ship, with only 1 task ( to shoot as many missiles out of the sky ) is not such a bad idea. Coding for it is not that hard either, the server is constantly aware what is out there, where it is going and who it came from. While what you say is true, coding for that wouldn't be too difficult, BUT it would be very CPU intensive and that leads to more lag or higher TiDi percentages and very unhappy hamsters. Each defender missile would need to have a small AI running that determines what that missile should do. It would go something like this: Are any missiles targeting my parent ship? You'd have to look at the parent ship's data and see which missiles have it targeted (should be communicated when someone opens fire with missiles and stored in your ship data). Yes - Calculate the distance to each one and target the closest one. No - Next step. Are any missiles targeting members of my fleet? For this you'd have to query every ship in your fleet and make a list of all potential targets which could be thousands in large fights. Yes - Evaluate each potential target to find the best one to go after (is it in range, is it the closest one, etc). Then target that one. No - Keep looking for targets eg: start the process over. If this were to be implemented, London would be a wasteland because CCP's server farm would go nuclear. It's a cool idea, but not really feasible. Well, EVE is a game, not a NASA-simulation. You could make the whole process much easier on the CPU by sacrificing a little realism in favour of performance: 1. Activating the Defender launcher gives a (hidden) buff to all friendly ships in Defender range (one buff per launcher) 2. Does a buffed ship receive missile damage? If yes, remove one stack of the defender buff (will be up again with the next cycle of your defender launchers) and reduce total missile damage by about 15%. 3. if 2. is triggered, let the local clients play a beautiful mini- animation of a destroyed missile. -.- |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
167
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Posted - 2012.04.23 09:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sometimes I dream EVE used honor harrington battle rules and we had XO racks, huge swarms of missiles, a powerful wedge on your ship so you'd rotate to intercept the brunt of enemy fire and command datalink to combine an entire fleets missile defense into one unit. Good times. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
88
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Posted - 2012.04.23 09:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Depending on the changes this would mean the death of drake fleets in PvP. hurricane has 2 spare utility slots for neuts, either both or one being defenders, drake has a spare highslot that usually fits a small neut.
Then for PvE, especially in guristas space, or against guristas ships means an instant tank buff for any ship that can carry a spare launcher. Drakes, tengus, etc. I can just imagine the horror of a botted tengu with a spare high slot fitting defenders and FOF missiles, high ECCM and safe spots. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
296
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Posted - 2012.04.23 10:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP has officially labeled the defender missiles as a PiTA and have been pushing it around on their plate like a small kid that doesn't want to eat his broccoli.
The problem is in the way missiles work. And they work that way to minimize the lag they create, which has seen many iterations over the years, and never kept the defender missiles in mind.
Though with the fact many people group their missiles these days, Defenders might actually perform a bit better.
I'd love to see it made a bit more useful, maybe take defenders out of normal launchers and giving it it own launcher with different sizes (and adding a phalanx and laser turret missile defense for non launchers). Basically they should offer a DPS reduction, not a total 'block all missiles' blanket.
Missiles would have to become a lot more useful first before any decent anti-missile systems would be even remotely balanced. Perhaps by making missiles the kings of alpha with more damages and lower ROF(so dps reduction makes a lot of sense). Maybe even making missiles only show redbox when they actually hit (so your anti-missile stuff going off while only yellow-boxed would make some alarmbells go off in your head) Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
981
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 10:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Depending on the changes this would mean the death of drake fleets in PvP. hurricane has 2 spare utility slots for neuts, either both or one being defenders, drake has a spare highslot that usually fits a small neut.
Then for PvE, especially in guristas space, or against guristas ships means an instant tank buff for any ship that can carry a spare launcher. Drakes, tengus, etc. I can just imagine the horror of a botted tengu with a spare high slot fitting defenders and FOF missiles, high ECCM and safe spots.
You are completely right, it would be pretty unbalanced and a huge nerf to most of the caldari ships, and I am not advocating those changes either. I just wanted to bust the myth that defender missiles are technically impossible to implement for ccp. It could be done, and the coding would be rather easy- but it would require some large-scale rebalancing of all missile ships, and this is probably the reason why ccp has chosen to neglect defender missiles.
-.- |
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
89
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Posted - 2012.04.23 14:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Depending on the changes this would mean the death of drake fleets in PvP. hurricane has 2 spare utility slots for neuts, either both or one being defenders, drake has a spare highslot that usually fits a small neut.
Then for PvE, especially in guristas space, or against guristas ships means an instant tank buff for any ship that can carry a spare launcher. Drakes, tengus, etc. I can just imagine the horror of a botted tengu with a spare high slot fitting defenders and FOF missiles, high ECCM and safe spots. You are completely right, it would be pretty unbalanced and a huge nerf to most of the caldari ships, and I am not advocating those changes either. I just wanted to bust the myth that defender missiles are technically impossible to implement for ccp. It could be done, and the coding would be rather easy- but it would require some large-scale rebalancing of all missile ships, and this is probably the reason why ccp has chosen to neglect defender missiles. To do it would require an entirely NEW point defense system and weaponry period. Along the lines of defender missiles but Id trash those and start from scratch. Ironically the introduction of a new ship within a few different classes wouldnt be so bad as another addition to it. But itd take MAJOR rebalancing. Other than that defenders will remain useless and should imo. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Iceman10117
7th Space Cavalry
2
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Posted - 2012.04.23 18:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
First of all: I'm happy to see this got into a serious discussion.
I for myself think all missiles should get a buff, and that would include defender missiles. They would get useful and missiles would get useful too, since the only missile ship I can think is being used now is Drakes. And they are useless too |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
89
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Posted - 2012.04.23 19:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Iceman10117 wrote:First of all: I'm happy to see this got into a serious discussion. I for myself think all missiles should get a buff, and that would include defender missiles. They would get useful and missiles would get useful too, since the only missile ship I can think is being used now is Drakes. And they are useless too Well no tengus are starting to get used a TON in fleet fights as well as drakes. Tengus and drakes are still some of the prime PvE choices for missile chuckers and now with the latest dev blog video info will get a HUGE aesthetic boost as well. They were nerfed many patches ago to make them more in line with turrets in terms of classes and dmg profiles towards dif class ships. So except a point defense system I truly cant say missiles need a buff in any other way.
I liked the proposal to unchain drakes and possibly tengus from only having to use scourge as top dps so as to not shoehorn dmg profiles in to tank. But Im not sure if a straight ROF is the way to go, Id honestly prefer a new missile flavor in terms of dps mixing like the turret ammos with some increased bonuses or dmg much like the difference between the precision and fury flavors. Itd add another avenue for inventors if its t2, or if its a varient of a faction ammo itd add another LP reward, possibly a new FW reward for caldari militia? or perhaps a dif flavor for each faction though gallente doesnt have a dedicated missile chucker but both amarr and minmatar have at least some missile boats. But thered be a lot to work with there imo. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
Baljos Arnjak
Dark Praetorian Order
18
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Posted - 2012.04.23 20:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Baljos Arnjak wrote:Mark Androcius wrote:Well a purpose fit ship, with only 1 task ( to shoot as many missiles out of the sky ) is not such a bad idea. Coding for it is not that hard either, the server is constantly aware what is out there, where it is going and who it came from. I said some nerdy stuff.. Well, EVE is a game, not a NASA-simulation. You could make the whole process much easier on the CPU by sacrificing a little realism in favour of performance: 1. Activating the Defender launcher gives a (hidden) buff to all friendly ships in Defender range (one buff per launcher) 2. Does a buffed ship receive missile damage? If yes, remove one stack of the defender buff (will be up again with the next cycle of your defender launchers) and reduce total missile damage by about 15%. 3. if 2. is triggered, let the local clients play a beautiful mini- animation of a destroyed missile.
True, it depends on how exactly you want defenders to work. I was just trying to illustrate what it would be like if we kept it similar to how it works now. Still, the option to protect fleet members mucks things up performance wise, no matter what method you go with.
Even in your example, you'd have a lot of calculations going on that would lead to increased CPU load and more data passing between clients and more lag/TiDi. I don't mean to nitpick, but I do this kind of stuff IRL and can't help it lol.
Personally, I'd rather go with a flak barrier like in BSG and add in a ship that supports that weapon system. It could potentially be easy(er) on the system and look cool.
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xh'neivers
House of Carrikk
7
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Posted - 2012.04.24 11:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Regarding defender missiles, I remember when I started playing I was really surprised that they didn't work against drones. Perhaps making them work like fof missiles that only target drones, and maybe scaling the missiles or launchers to be able to take on light, med, heavy, fighters and fighter bombers. That could allow for specialist fleet defense boats in sub cap fleets taking on carriers and super caps.
This would also give people a way of better killing drones other than smart bombs...
Oh, and this idea would take away defenders ability to take on missiles. Some sort of phalanx system scaled by meta, missile meta, skills etc would be a better solution - this coming from someone with max missile skills. |
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