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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:18:00 -
[181]
Quote:
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
When I was "director" in one of my 2 companies in real life, you can stay the hell sure they'd claim me as responsible for the employees actions.
If you can't stand responsibility, don't be a director, simple as that.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:19:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads
Quote: Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
There was atleast one other case where their choice in wording caused confusion.
Perhaps GM Grimmi would be kind enough to explain what was actually ment.
How much accountablity does a director have for the actions of the corp membership?
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:20:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
When I was "director" in one of my 2 companies in real life, you can stay the hell sure they'd claim me as responsible for the employees actions.
If you can't stand responsibility, don't be a director, simple as that.
Yes, but Eve is not real life. Not even remotely close to it.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:35:00 -
[184]
Quote: Yes, but Eve is not real life. Not even remotely close to it.
It's the one MMO that simulates a decent economic model, a decently realistic death penalty, a decent action => result consequentiality, models economic industry organizations and much more.
It happens to also simulate directors in a fairly decent way.
This is not some goblin spewing fire on a magical carpet, there are corporations, employees, agents, pilots, insurance, banks AND directors to take the good (no taxes, be the boss) and the bad (responsibility for the company actions) modelling the real ones.
I am glad there's still some place in the world (even if it's a virtual place) where harsh and nowadays rude words like "Responsibility" are still in use.
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Rata Nrnima
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:45:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Unfamed II Name and shame a bit moar please. Dddrama awaits.
CCP's report indicates real life money exchanged hands in this exploit. In post a client did the math and exposed the potential guestimation of that r/l income. If I were CCP I'd be pursuing litigation/legal remedy. This negatively impacted CCP's reputation. While, to me, it is patently obvious someone in their employ was involved, legally, they cannot name anyone involvement has not been legally proven.
I've b*tched about CCP involvement in all this. Not realizing the magnitude of ramification implied by the exploit. Unfortunately, previous actions on CCP's part prevented trust. I do however, understand why Name and Shame are not possible in this particular situation.
If, and this is a big IF, CCP's economist truly did not catch any indication of this exploit in the data - I question his qualifications to be called "Economist". I'm stuck at WHY didn't he stop it. He isn't incompetent, so ?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:51:00 -
[186]
Quote: I question his qualifications to be called "Economist". I'm stuck at WHY didn't he stop it. He isn't incompetent, so ?
The Economist works on the basis he's fed proper data, expecially when the prices spike at the same time they expected that for other reasons.
He got tainted data that just stacked onto an expected trend so it fooled him. Also, despite the massive amount of ISK involved, those were pretty "high end" materials, and thus with higher volatility in prices, leading to an even more relaxed check about the causes of trends.
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:56:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
When I was "director" in one of my 2 companies in real life, you can stay the hell sure they'd claim me as responsible for the employees actions.
If you can't stand responsibility, don't be a director, simple as that.
I am not responsible for faulty code: CCP is. And i am willing to bet that all involved programmers and gm's etc are still there and still being payed even though they messed up big time, several times. And the people who are responsible for them have not been sacked either.
The ULA we all agree to is to make sure we behave ourselves. It does not make you automatically responsible for others people actions just because you have a role within the corp. If we can lose our account just because we accept a director role they should state that in the ULA and give a warning when accepting such a role. As players we are responsible for our own actions, not for others.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:55:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote: I question his qualifications to be called "Economist". I'm stuck at WHY didn't he stop it. He isn't incompetent, so ?
The Economist works on the basis he's fed proper data, expecially when the prices spike at the same time they expected that for other reasons.
He got tainted data that just stacked onto an expected trend so it fooled him. Also, despite the massive amount of ISK involved, those were pretty "high end" materials, and thus with higher volatility in prices, leading to an even more relaxed check about the causes of trends.
Actually prices started into a free fall and several people in the market discussion forums made calls that something funny was going on with supply well before the exploit was made public. In fact one in particular noted that a good portion of material just appeared on the market and was responsible for the price decline.
This was in opposite to the expected effect of what should have been increased prices, so everyone was scratching their heads.
I don't fault the economist, he doesn't play the game as much as some of us traders do. So his knowledge of the game to be quite frank is rather limited even with him being on the dev side of the table. |
Primnproper
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:00:00 -
[189]
Good job, nice blog |
BlondieBC
Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:39:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Vyger Thanks for the comprehensive analysis.
Shame about those T2 BPOs. I'm guessing they won't get re-introduced back into the game.
A list of the t2 bpo's would be nice, nice to know what is getting more expensive.
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:51:00 -
[191]
Just to make something clear, this exploit did not generate isk and therefore did not have a general inflationary effect. It generated goods and was therefore deflationary. Of course the exploiters themselves were able to gain large amounts of isk.
A exploit that directly duped isk would be much more serious, since lower prices in EVE tend to be solved by the system (through higher "wastage") while a inflationary spiral would be much harder to recover from.
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Soo Cadik
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:18:00 -
[192]
As someone that has worked writing online video games for the last 10 years, I've found that maintaining a sort of degenerate mindset when writing code is very helpful for preventing exploits from happening. What would happen if someone tried to drop a detpack while feigning death? What would happen if someone started firing the assault cannon and then tried to disguise himself as the other team?
I try to write code to be as self-healing as possible, so that even if bad values do enter the system, the game code handles it correctly.
That said, you can probably never quash all online exploits, but with the right attitude, you can do a pretty good job at it.
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URUS FORGE
Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:52:00 -
[193]
Edited by: URUS FORGE on 11/02/2009 22:52:45 Now that this t2 mat has been fixed.. are you now implementing a new bug to exploit t3 prior to its release..
Would Dr double eye patch ..chief economist for bernie madoff.. care to explain how this new t3 exploit won't impact the eve economy using graphs from one system and less than 10% of those involved in the exploit prior to the news of t3 mat exploits getting out in 1 year from today?
You could save us all a lot of time, and maybe we might really believe the next one was an oversight too
Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:15:00 -
[194]
Given that this exploit is considered to have existed since the very first starbase was deployed and given the nature of your average human to see what will happen if they stick their finger in a power socket, it's safe to assume that the data the economist has had to work on has been tainted since day one and that those employing this exploit were also very aware that should they push their luck and boost production too far, they would be discovered and what has happened to them now would have happened to them a lot sooner.
This is however all besides the point. Personally I'm far more interested in the following question:
Can I has their stuffs? One client: Three Screens! |
Janath Keyes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:40:00 -
[195]
Thanks for the detailed report. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 01:07:00 -
[196]
Quote:
We are not responsible for faulty code: CCP is
We are responsible for reporting the faults AND not exploit them at personal advantage.
Quote:
And i am willing to bet that all involved programmers and gm's etc are still there and still being payed even though they messed up big time, several times
Are they "a director"? No.
At that date they were driven by missing company policies and poorer checking tools, whose responsibility is off the lead tester / game designer who in turn answer to the "director(s)" (with more steps in the process depending on company size). In the end, the bigger issues bubble up and escalate guess what, to the "director".
He's the guy going around in a Porsche but also the guy putting out his face and be pounded in case of grave matters. Exactly like in game.
Quote:
It does not make you automatically responsible for others people actions just because you have a role within the corp.
What makes you think they were not informed? Do you really believe in the fable of the poor ingenuous director who suddenly see trillions passing thru is corporation and he's sincerely without any role in it?
Do you really believe someone out of the blue decides: "hey, let's install some multiple POS to feed the cash cow" and a director won't notice those so tiny cash movements involved at setting up a POS? When the titans start popping up like Rifters, does the director pat the "genius dudes" on the shoulder without any possible involvement or knowledge?
Do you REALLY believe in summary executions taken without checking out the logs for the massive transactions which have for sure not been managed by a fresh recruit?
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.12 03:56:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Valeria Crossroads on 12/02/2009 03:57:07
Quote: We are responsible for reporting the faults AND not exploit them at personal advantage.
Partly right, no where in the ULA it is mentioned we have to report people who are doing something wrong. We are only responsible for our own actions.
Quote: He's the guy going around in a Porsche but also the guy putting out his face and be pounded in case of grave matters. Exactly like in game.
Wrong again. In rl i am responsible for my employees. In game i am not. Every one is responsible for their own actions. And if i am mistaken please point me to the right section of the ULA.
Quote:
What makes you think they were not informed? Do you really believe in the fable of the poor ingenuous director who suddenly see trillions passing thru is corporation and he's sincerely without any role in it?
Do you really believe someone out of the blue decides: "hey, let's install some multiple POS to feed the cash cow" and a director won't notice those so tiny cash movements involved at setting up a POS? When the titans start popping up like Rifters, does the director pat the "genius dudes" on the shoulder without any possible involvement or knowledge?
What makes you think only one business model exists? What makes you think all cash flows go through the corp wallets? My corp exists of freelancers. We hate rules, we like freedom. Trusted people can get the right to setup a pos. They pay for the pos, they maintain it and they get the rewards from it. Not a single isk goes through the corp wallet. And what you do not realize is that some people are very rich. I know people who have over 1 trillion isk (mainly capital builders and t2 bpo resellers). I myself can buy 3 titans easily. Setting up 300 complete large posses isk wise is doable for me and i am not even top dog in eve.
Quote:
Do you REALLY believe in summary executions taken without checking out the logs for the massive transactions which have for sure not been managed by a fresh recruit?
I can only go for what they wrote and they wrote that:
Quote:
Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit
What you assume what they did and what CCP wrote what they did is something different.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:58:00 -
[198]
Would CCP please allow the MD forum people to discuss this dev blog in MD? Not everyone wants to discuss the implications for the dysprosium products markets and there's no practical way to trace through 7+ pages of mostly unrelated posts to string together a discussion on this particular niche.
I understand that CCP wishes to reduce the number of threads and whining on this subject. But a reasonable compromise would be to create an official MD thread on MD to discuss the relevant parts. Please consider it.
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2009.02.12 08:41:00 -
[199]
2 questions,
1. Will the 30 Tech II BPOs be reseeded?
2. Does this mean reporting an macroe`r will get some attention? Because i have the feeling allot is falling true the cracks.
www.garia.net |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.12 08:44:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Hugh Ruka 2. Your programmers are a bunch of idiots that don't know how to test their code properly it seems.
Actually, stale cache corruption bugs are typically the work of good programmers; bad programmers aren't sophisticated enough to use caching and hinting techniques to optimize their code. And race conditions (which this effectively was) are notoriously difficult to debug.
A good programmer will not cache a DYNAMIC structure status without forced reevaluation on each structure change.
Basicaly the reactor production flag should have been reset after any link to it was changed. This did not happen and was a huge hole in the production chain.
Also from the description in the blog, I fear the POS code (or controll tower) features many more traps like this. Since the POS is a rather monolitic code block centered around the tower. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:09:00 -
[201]
Quote:
Partly right, no where in the ULA it is mentioned we have to report people who are doing something wrong. We are only responsible for our own actions
I don't act just because there's an ULA stating what's right or wrong but also because of my own. If I see someone making insane cheated ISK I feel it'll impact me negatively sooner or later and so I report them even if the ULA does not strictly push me to do that.
Quote:
Wrong again. In rl i am responsible for my employees. In game i am not. Every one is responsible for their own actions. And if i am mistaken please point me to the right section of the ULA.
The ULA might not state every possibility (impossible) but the statement:
Dude in your corp exploits => "Somehow" YOU director earn trillions => YOU are responsible is very simple to make. We are not talking of some rogue faceless employee hiddenly photocopying his buttcheecks on the photocopier but of directors who became billionaire and not out of thin air.
Can't state: "how did CCP's economist not see the huge money flow" like several did in this thread, when you director don't want to see the huge money flow coming out your very corporation.
Quote:
We hate rules, we like freedom.
TBH no one cares if you hate rules. I hate CONCORD killing me if I shoot at a guy in 1.0 sec (I even joined FW to have more choices) but that's the game we got. If tomorrow CCP puts black on white about director = fully responsible, there you go with your freedom, it's their product not yours.
Quote:
They pay for the pos, they maintain it and they get the rewards from it. Not a single isk goes through the corp wallet. And what you do not realize is that some people are very rich. I know people who have over 1 trillion isk (mainly capital builders and t2 bpo resellers).
If you can write such an elaborate statement, you can also understand they checked the transactions logs and banned the directors, they just happen to be very very easily involved in this sort of things.
Quote:
A good programmer will not cache a DYNAMIC structure status without forced reevaluation on each structure change.
It has been years ago, when the game was not even fully developed, the coding practices still green and the optimization requirements often "take the hand" off the programmers so they venture onto risky avenues and "assumptions". Problem is, you focus on how "idiots" they were in the past (that is, unchangeable), but we have no idea about the present or the future new practices. This is where I'd focus a criticism.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:17:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Garia666 2 questions,
1. Will the 30 Tech II BPOs be reseeded?
2. Does this mean reporting an macroe`r will get some attention? Because i have the feeling allot is falling true the cracks.
1. No (There is a dev post someplace saying that...)
2. I think they slip through too, but we'll see.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Dracira Dracc
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Posted - 2009.02.12 10:03:00 -
[203]
Can we have a list of the removed T2 BPOs :-)
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 10:56:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Lore Varan
About 2 months ago I created a petition about a possible exploit.
I wasnt sure if it was an exploit or not. It was a way of getting cheap stuff not free stuff. The response I got was that the issue needed to be moved to a different queue as it couldnt be investigated under a stuck petition , I'm sure I filed it under exploit but thats beside the point.
The petition I created was autoclosed by the system. So I am left now not knowing if the issue I described was an exploit or not, and have no idea if its under investigation or not :(
Would it be worth re-creating the exploit petition now to take advantage of your new improved procedures in case the issue has been forgotten like those 2005 petition u mentioned in the blog ?
well it's easy re-create it - with the log server running and file a bug report then file a petition in the correct catagory -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Paulo Banderez
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:13:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Jaisan Will CCP be taking legal action to recover any monies made by RMT the exploited isk ?
Just an account ban is no punishment for real world benifits made from this exploit.
What did you have in mind? I don't think any laws were broken. If so, its a matter for the police.
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CrabClaw McGraw
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Posted - 2009.02.12 12:36:00 -
[206]
The blog is excellent but I'm dissapointed that this bug was reported to CCP on more than one occasion and it was not fixed. This is yet another in a long line of mistakes made by CCP. |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:29:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 12/02/2009 13:32:33
Originally by: Paulo Banderez
Originally by: Jaisan Will CCP be taking legal action to recover any monies made by RMT the exploited isk ?
Just an account ban is no punishment for real world benifits made from this exploit.
What did you have in mind? I don't think any laws were broken. If so, its a matter for the police.
Technically, it could be considered to be Fraud as the person receiving the funds is selling an item that doesn't belong to him (As all ingame items, including ISK and Characters are the Property of CCP as Defined in the EULA). However, as the Real Money is coming from the ISK Buyer and not from CCP then CCP could not recover the Funds. The ISK Buyer could technically try to recover his money by legal action from the ISK Seller.
Successfully pursuing it in court however, is a different matter, especially considering that not all Countries Laws are the same. Big Can of Worms there. ---------------
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PJRiddick
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:29:00 -
[208]
a couple this i wouldlike to point out here, 1) the detail that the report went into was emacualte to say the least. The question is that i have is how did CCP and there ecnomist come up with all that data in such a short time. It leads me to wonder if CCP/the economist had some inside knolege of the dealings there within the exploit. 2) Scence BoBs demise and all the people have been delt with however im wondering just how many of these people are sitll in game and if they can be trusted. it seems to me that if the people at CCP are gmaers themselves that they would have inside knolege of said exploits and how to use them. As far as im concerned this would only be a conflict of interest on the part of CCP. OH and a third point here,..... Just how much money >IRL< has changed hands scence all this money ISK has been made, and where did it go,.... I said earlier in one of my other rantings that it looked as if the ISK sellers were having fun making isk to sell. The demise of the exploit only dampened the income of these isk sellers,...but to what extent. Remember that these people that sell the isk not only use EVE to make money,..they farm out about all the MMORPGs for there income. Do the people that work at CCP farm eve as wellfor suplemental income by selling ISK? Im not pointing fingers That is just food for thought. >R<
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:34:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Technically, it could be considered to be Fraud as the person receiving the funds is selling an item that doesn't belong to him (As all ingame items, including ISK and Characters are the Property of CCP as Defined in the EULA)
Successfully pursuing it in court however, is a different matter, especially considering that not all Countries Laws are the same. Big Can of Worms there.
It is actually a service agreement, not a fake property sale. You pay them money to spend the time earning ISK and then they give the ISK to you. That's why it's so difficult to smash it under the legal hammer.
This is also the reason why the arguments for a property tax on virtual 'goods' are a failure.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:53:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Tasko Pal Would CCP please allow the MD forum people to discuss this dev blog in MD? Not everyone wants to discuss the implications for the dysprosium products markets and there's no practical way to trace through 7+ pages of mostly unrelated posts to string together a discussion on this particular niche.
I understand that CCP wishes to reduce the number of threads and whining on this subject. But a reasonable compromise would be to create an official MD thread on MD to discuss the relevant parts. Please consider it.
Seconded, the thread locked there in had nothing but market implications and attempting to sift through the loltastic crap this thread is sure to deliver is going to be a chore |
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