Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:25:00 -
[91]
I dont suppose theres any chance of finding out which BPO's were destroyed? |
Ambassador Delenn
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:26:00 -
[92]
Overall I was impressed by the information, but the attempt to show the size of the exploit compared to the overall market was flawed since the value of total trade was used to represent the market.
If I were to buy an input for 900Mil and then sell the output for 1Bil and another player were to sell 100M of duped ferrogel he is only contributing 5% of total trade while making as much profit as I am. This is made even more complex given the multiple stages of production in the eve economy.
For example: 1 Ore is mined and sold on the market. 2 Refined to minerals and resold 3 Produced into a Battleship and resold 4 Bought in Jita and moved to a combat hub 5 Sold to the end user who gets it blown up in combat.
This is a very simple example that doesn't begin to touch the amount of trading and relisting done without changing the item. This is why in the real world GDP is calculated using only the value of finished goods, in this example the "retail" price of the Battleship.
Admittedly it would be very difficult to calculate something equilivant to GDP in eve since it is often unclear what is and is not a final good. A good starting point would be the market price of all ships and modules destroyed, but that isn't directly relevant to the current topic.
A far more useful measure of the scale of the exploit would be to find the amount of duped materials in relation to the theoretical maximum that could be produced by normal methods. Given that a dyspro moon can supply 2 fermionic condensates, ferrogel or hypersynaptic fibers reactions it should be relatively simple. It would be a reasonable assumption that all dyspro moons are fully utilized and that alchemy would have a negligible impact on these calculations.
Even just publishing the raw number of dyspro/promethium moons (with no strategic information about locations, ownership etc.) and letting the community determine the magnitude would be appreciated. |
Orontes Ovasi
Minmatar COGNET SpaceSystems Ltd Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:53:00 -
[93]
Great DevBlog, and a fascinating read. Keep up the good work. |
Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:54:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Sacul Now the market speculation in Jita might come to a halt. Well one can hope
*gasp* NO!
How else will I make my billions without undocking!? |
Vak'ran
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:06:00 -
[95]
Thumbs up for the finalization of this issue.
Now, for purposes of pure entertainment only...
Quote: The opening action on our part regarding the exploit included the total destruction of all the POS complexes involved. This entailed flying to each one and basically nuking everything in sight - a fireworks show of epic proportions but with no witnesses except the GMs in the demolition team.
Describe the weaponry involved |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:07:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Sacul Now the market speculation in Jita might come to a halt. Well one can hope
Not likely, we still have (supposedly) the entire BoB market hiccup to work through despite volume remaining relatively stable.
Onto the blog
Impressive to say the least, however I think you market gurus are playing down the effects of the increased supply in the T2 market when you compare the total amount spawned to the daily trade in EVE.
A better metric would have been to calculate the amount of T2 goods that require those materials in production traded between the exploit dates. Breakout the total percentage in materials those goods account for, separate the exploited materials and THEN compare the totals.
I think you'll find the numbers to be likely a bit more than you are playing it off to be.
You also are not accounting for speculative forces using that spawned material, profits from that speculation, etc...
On the Law and Order side, bravo for bringing down the thunder and bringing it down hard. 134 accounts banned, BPOs removed entirely, etc ....is no chump amount |
Nashrak Lighthammer
Caldari Deep Exploration Projects and Programs Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:13:00 -
[97]
Thank you CCP.
It is a good thing to improve visibilty to those things.
So everyone can see how you have proceeded.
Continue like this. |
Ebodhisatva
The Templars Knights
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:15:00 -
[98]
Looking at the Cruise Missile launcher II in Figure 13 shows that though prices increased somewhat in December, they soon decreased again.
Figure 13 is not there?
|
Ebodhisatva
The Templars Knights
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:21:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Ebodhisatva on 10/02/2009 22:24:13 They forgot to mention/include the complete losses factor in this thing, people only massively buy stuff when things get lost/destroyed.
What you are seeing is market, now i'm very sure that a big load of t2 produced at posses gets redirected straight into battles, you don't see that in these stats. That means free war supplies for everyone without ever buying stuff from the market. And that is where most of these things are destroyed.
You should include the stats (difference) between lost in complete EVE, and bought of the market, and _that_ gives a whole other picture.
Not to mention that it is very important to take into account that skills that players have, over time, increase the demand in t2.
Economy in EVE is not MARKET driven, it is PLAYER driven, that means TRADING without ever touching the market.
This means that the complete blog is utter crap, purely jita trading, and that is _not_ where this was all happening.
your call ccp, try again...
|
|
CCP Fallout
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:27:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Ebodhisatva Looking at the Cruise Missile launcher II in Figure 13 shows that though prices increased somewhat in December, they soon decreased again.
Figure 13 is not there?
that should have read "11." I've corrected it. Thanks :) |
|
|
Komen
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:30:00 -
[101]
Thank you for a very comprehensive accounting of this issue.
Having read the blog, I think I'm better informed about what happened, how it happened, how it got missed, etc.
While it's regrettable that bug reports were filed and didn't lead to further investigation, it's also understandable. Steps have been, and are being, taken to improve handling of these situations in the future: That's the part I like best about this blog. Everyone makes mistakes, but failing to learn from them, THAT is where shame lies.
Again, thank you for informing us, and thank you for your beautiful internet spaceships game. |
Sabahl
Minmatar LFC Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:37:00 -
[102]
Hmmm, time to recheck that semi-duping exploit I petitioned a year ago to see if it was actually fixed when the testers updated the bugreport to say they could not reproduce it... |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:42:00 -
[103]
first, I did not read the comments, just wrote this right after reading the blog.
1. The economist finaly proved himself usefull. good job 2. Your programmers are a bunch of idiots that don't know how to test their code properly it seems. 3. Your bug hunters and support stuff are a bunch of idiots too for not realising the true nature of the issue they are dealing with.
Had to say the above because the technical part is realy disappointing. How can you cache states of members of a DYNAMIC structure ? Why do you not reevaluate the states when the structure changes ? Are you complete morons ? If you want to save CPU time, you can make the production cycles longer while producing more.
ok ... I have to calm down now or I'll get a forum ban ... |
space bully
Civis Romanus Sum
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:47:00 -
[104]
I just felt like i had to say a few things after reading this massive blog about this god cursed exploit.
First of all, extremly well formulated and argumented blog.. I love the amount of details, and its just glowing of the fact that this have been a rather long process, in which you guys and gals, have devoted some seriouse ressources..
I definetly want to say to whomever is the HR counsulent in ccp, to give a big job well done pat on the backs of the people responsible for all of this text!! Was extremly interesting reading! And a very cool thing to see that you chose such radical action, and didnt want to back down, regardless of the amount of "cash" that was lost in the account bans! |
Shar'ri Atal
Minmatar Chaos Engineering
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:50:00 -
[105]
Thank you CCP for your in depth reporting on this bug, it was interesting to read the analysis. |
John McCreedy
Caldari Eve Defence Force Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:53:00 -
[106]
Two questions need to be asked:
- What action, if any, has been taken against the GMs who did not correctly investigate the petitions filed to see if these where widescale exploits and made erroneous assumptions?
- Can and will you give us a guarantee that in future, any petition in any catagory of a nature involving "dumping" will be investigated to determine whether it is an isloated incident or, as was the case here, an exploit on an industrial scale?
And for once in yoru lives, don't treat this enquiry as a "capsuleer" but rather as a subscriber to your product because that is why you have ongoing customer service problems. We need somebody from CCP to make a pledge that no more assumptions will be made and investigations will be made to uncover the facts so as to avoid anything like this ever happening again.
J |
Ethidium Bromide
Amarr ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:59:00 -
[107]
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
so you actually removed items from the game that should still be there?
it's not like they can be rebuilt or anything and it would be interesting to know if there is an impact on prices for those tech II items by simply removing the bpos.... |
Ebodhisatva
The Templars Knights
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:01:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
so you actually removed items from the game that should still be there?
it's not like they can be rebuilt or anything and it would be interesting to know if there is an impact on prices for those tech II items by simply removing the bpos....
that's the same with people quitting, they aren't reseeded, and yes what you just said - this will have an impact |
Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:01:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads Edited by: Valeria Crossroads on 10/02/2009 20:40:19
Originally by: Raymon James . . . where were you when BoB was disbanded?
this is a TOTAL PvP game, you better bloody well know what the people under you are doing. Especialy when they are embarking on something on this scale.
You cannot and should not be punished for crimes someone else did. It ridiculous that if you are a CEO of a company and some employee commits a crime that you also should go to jail. Only the real guilty should be punished. What you are saying would never hold up in a real court case, cause it must be proved that without any doubt a person knew what was going on. And in our setup no isk goes through the corp wallets. That ccp produces faulty code is their problem. Punishing people who did not knew that a certain exploit existed is unacceptable.
you may want to take a google at the name Enron.
lets be blunt, this scam in its last month was pulling in about 1-2 trillion. (in fact given how quickly things were ramping up I would be shocked if they developers did not twig to something somewhere being wrong within a month as it was. things could not continue along the path it was heading without the prices abruptly cratering)
now if you have that mutch showing up in your corp wallet and dont know where it came from then you do have a problem.
from the sound of things though the corps who set this up were set up to exclusivly churn out duped mats and to try to isolate the people who were actualy exploiting from the exploit itself. |
Ankhesentapemkah
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:03:00 -
[110]
It was a pleasure working together with CCP, I really feel this issue has now been properly concluded and that CCP set some new industry standards for MMOs regarding bugs and exploits by the extent this issue was investigated and dealt with.
If I can be of further service to any of you players regarding this issue, feel free to contact me in Eve or at eva a evajobse. net.
|
|
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:12:00 -
[111]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 10/02/2009 23:14:05 you know it makes a lot of sense now. The fact that the steps were not included frees me of any tin-foil hattery I had. As I've done game testing before, I can understand the reason for dropping it.
Originally by: Kristel Elke WALL OF TEXT
take a writing class, you could have written this in 4 paragraphs.
yeah, and make everyone post : stop hiding the details!"
you should go back to highschool now, you'll understand when your in collage and have to write a 20 page report on burger kings effect on the economy. |
|
CCP Mitnal
C C P CCP
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:52:00 -
[112]
Cleaned.
Please remember to post with respect towards fellow players. |
|
Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 00:03:00 -
[113]
Originally by: John McCreedy Two questions need to be asked:
- What action, if any, has been taken against the GMs who did not correctly investigate the petitions filed to see if these where widescale exploits and made erroneous assumptions?
- Can and will you give us a guarantee that in future, any petition in any catagory of a nature involving "dumping" will be investigated to determine whether it is an isloated incident or, as was the case here, an exploit on an industrial scale?
And for once in yoru lives, don't treat this enquiry as a "capsuleer" but rather as a subscriber to your product because that is why you have ongoing customer service problems. We need somebody from CCP to make a pledge that no more assumptions will be made and investigations will be made to uncover the facts so as to avoid anything like this ever happening again.
J
they already said what happend. Quote: To date, we have found three petitions regarding the reactor bug in our systems. Two of those are since late October 2005 and one since late October 2007. In all cases, the issue was handled as an isolated bug for the players reporting it and the work done was geared towards fixing that particular issue.
In one of the older cases, the user petitioning was asked to file a bug report but the resulting report was closed after the bug hunters were not able to reproduce the issue. At the time, no procedures were in place on our end to ensure that reproduction steps were included. Nowadays, our bug hunters will contact the player submitting the report and request that the steps be added if they are missing.
Quite frankly, it must be said that at the time, the documentation and logs available for POS-related things left much to be desired and anyone involved in handling such issues would have been facing a very difficult task indeed. Very little information was available to staff and players alike about how things were supposed to work and what little logs existed were in no way sufficient to provide information needed to successfully tackle problems with POS mechanics. The usual stopgap fix was to simply repackage the structures and hope that it would take care of the issue at hand.
The last petition was correctly filed into the exploit category but it was simply handled as an individual problem for the player reporting it. Thus it fell through the cracks and did not raise the flags it should have and no exploit investigation was launched.
I am going to do something unusual. Im going to side with the GMs on this one. Why? I was a Guide and had a main character on the Test server in EQ. I saw some of the /peitions and /reports on items that fell through the cracks way back then.
I literaly realised that some of the people who play MMOs do so under the influence of whatever turns them on. They had all kinds of pet names for items races and places (that invariably only they used! We were never sure if muttown for example ment Blackburro or Splitpaw or Freeport or Qeynos or Surefall or Rivervale and so on(some of the "Strict" roleplayers in the TierDal were quite racist when it came to the Halflings Halfelfs and Woodelves) that left you wondering just what the hell they were talking about, even when you poped up in game and stood with them and go them to show you what the hell they were talking about. Hell on the test server some of the developers were in the habit of "reading" to us verbatem what was on some of the bug reports hopeing WE knew that the player who submitted them was talking about. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 00:06:00 -
[114]
Now that's a blog; best one in a long while.
The only things missing are the names of the perpetrators. And don't tell me it'll never happen; skill queueing was never supposed to happen either.
/Ben
|
Dmian
Gallente Gallenterrorisme
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 00:22:00 -
[115]
And you even made it look so casual, as "ah! look, there's the problem..." I can't even think about the effort you put to get this thing straight. Thanks, really, to all the parts involved for your hard work. ----
Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Buyerr
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 00:24:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Goumindong Blog was comprehensive and well written. Good work. Though, i still do not believe anything in your privacy policy prohibits you from releasing the character names of those involved since character names are in no way personal information.
hmm one can exspect for something like this to happen that one or more would be bobs/dev/gm or others that could hold the word back untill they got what they wanted...
this is not a exploit after 4 years, it is something that was intended from the side of some one that could keep it of the reader or so you would think (considering i don't believe the team that checks these things to be to incompatent to see something was wrong, and that something like this wasn't tested in development) I declare war on stupidity |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 01:21:00 -
[117]
Sooo...
In this thread, they admit all that was posted was true Posted here, scrapheap, and he-who-must-not-be-named's forum.
There was MULTIPLE petitions and bug reports.
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
Ok so the generated isk is around max 16trillion. There was 200pos or so. Including supercap losses, wallet isk, and well there's 100+ t2 bpos known to have been destroyed.
So easily the isk has been destroyed that has been generated basically. Which is good. Not to mention lots of t2 bpos being destroyed is really really good; hopefully one day t2bpos just arent an existing thing.
Quote: To date, we have found three petitions regarding the reactor bug in our systems. Two of those are since late October 2005 and one since late October 2007. In all cases, the issue was handled as an isolated bug for the players reporting it and the work done was geared towards fixing that particular issue.
Notice the wording here.
1. When it was posted on open forums... devs denied outright that the pos exploit had existed very long at all... they also denied that any petition or bug report has ever been made.
The wording of this easily purports that there clearly has been MANY more situations.
Quote: In one of the older cases, the user petitioning was asked to file a bug report but the resulting report was closed after the bug hunters were not able to reproduce the issue.
You know... Ive posted like 7 bug reports in the past day... nothing particularly special considering expansion version 1 is just on... but I got filtered the EXACT same way on a number of bug reports.
Hi, I couldnŠt get this to reproduce - can you please run the log server and reproduce this bug.
1. I'm not running no log server. I will only do this if I'm extremely extremely bored. Not my job to do this. 2. I posted a pic of the bug. It's clear it's a bug... and it almost certainly is going to hurt all pvpers ingame.
Unless they assume i'm an epic of epic shooper; which i cant even toot my horn to that effect. :) The bug exists.
It is pure and epic FAIL. If the bug hunters filter my bug report... in order to make it basically die. No dev, no other bug hunters will see it.
the bug wont be fixed
The bug then gets into game. People die. Post reimbursement petitions and get denied. LIKE ME FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
I bug reported a mission related bug. It got filtered. Im not going back to check my bug reports every single day. The bug got to TQ. I lost my ares to the bug. I basically have done no lvl 4 missions since. On top of that... GMs wont reimburse me because the logs show nothing special.
It is time to radically change the bug reporting system. Allow ALL people to essentially be bug hunters.
Look at this site.
ANYONE can go see all the bugs listed; but I digress. There is potential for exploits to be visible this way. So how about we make the fail&aids Bug Hunters competent for a second and make it so... ANYONE can see Filtered bugs. They then can go in and if they experienced the bug, get in there with the log servers and dxdiags and all this. To keep the bug report alive. |
Datsun Achura
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 01:29:00 -
[118]
About the best write up we could have asked for tbh
The players making RL $$$ though is a bit
|
Arekaine
Gallente Shadowmen. Galactic System Lords Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 01:31:00 -
[119]
Good blog. Am just glad it got fixed and those that used it got punished.
Now back to the T3 blogs!.....ready........GO!
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 02:10:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Ebodhisatva
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
so you actually removed items from the game that should still be there?
it's not like they can be rebuilt or anything and it would be interesting to know if there is an impact on prices for those tech II items by simply removing the bpos....
that's the same with people quitting, they aren't reseeded, and yes what you just said - this will have an impact
No, no it won't. Not beyond what the initial lack of supply has already impacted the market. The prints matter not, its the lack of mats that is what is effecting prices right now.
But to be frank, this isn't the place for this discussion. Everyone should eve search Akita Ferrogel and look for this post back in Sept. He was one of the first players to recognize openly that something funky was going on with the T2 mat market and that over supply was starting to occur. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |