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Limited Isolation
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:32:00 -
[1]
What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3? I'm a little confused on this, is this gonna be some kind of pve cruiser?
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Grek Forto
THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:44:00 -
[2]
When your T3 ship gets destroyed and you are in it, you lose a level of one of the skills that are needed for T3 (Like Amarr Defensive Systems or whatever the new skill name is). You can train that skill again.
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:02:00 -
[3]
This sounds like a lame concept, anyone have a cluw what the idea behind this should be? -----------------------------------------------
Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:38:00 -
[4]
This is to prevent T3 becoming the normal PvP Ship in EVE. Believe it or not, T2 was not supposed to be the standard fit. T2 was supposed to be elite making ships better but the losses bigger.
They do it this way so that the risk/reward aspect they love is in play. Yes you can make your T3 ship a huge DPS machine, but the risk is, if you get killed, there's a hefty price to pay not just in isk.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:42:00 -
[5]
It should be noted they said the relevant T3 skills that would be affected will (probably) be Rank-1 so re-training them will not take long (5 days or so at the outside for L5).
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Limited Isolation What is the deal about losing SP when you lose a t3 ship? Doesn't that defeat any pvp purpose of t3?
This just in: Eve is about risk vs reward. ----------------------
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Fiben Bolger
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:13:00 -
[7]
Those who are not too attached to a few skill points will PVP in them.
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Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h It should be noted they said the relevant T3 skills that would be affected will (probably) be Rank-1 so re-training them will not take long (5 days or so at the outside for L5).
CBA to find it, but iirc a dev specifically said the component skills are rank 1. Also, the skill lost is random within the corresponding ship ie:
You're in the tengu (caldari): You have
Caldari Defensive lvl 4 Caldari Offensive lvl 4 Caldari Blahpiece1 lvl 4 Caldari Blahpiece2 lvl 4 Caldari Blahpiece3 lvl 4
If your ship gets blowed up and you dont eject you randomly get ONE of the skills reduced by ONE level post death:
Caldari Defensive lvl 3 Caldari Offensive lvl 4 Caldari Blahpiece1 lvl 4 Caldari Blahpiece2 lvl 4 Caldari Blahpiece3 lvl 4
Or any other variations of that. A rank 1 space com skill from 3->4 with decent perc/will is what, like 2-3days? and lvl 2->3 is a matter of hours. So really, its not THAT big of a deal. If you wanna play it safe get em all up to 3 and take one or two up to lvl 4 and just hope that only you're lvl 3's get knocked down.
What is wrong to say: 1. You lose a random skill (You won't lose shield upgrades 5 or something, ONLY one of the 5 modular skills) 2. You lose one skill for it (It only goes down by one level, not from 4 to 0) 3. Only one of the 5 will go down in any explosion (RE: example above)
Again, CBA to find where it was said, but one of the devs did enlighten us. If you play it smart, total loss won't be crippling, but still a set back.
Personally I think this is kind of cool and unique.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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SadisticSavior
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:43:00 -
[9]
Anyone know what the in-game explanation is for losing skill points? Like the neural interface fries your brain or something?
("Fascist" is such an ugly word) |
Gal'drea
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Posted - 2009.02.12 01:49:00 -
[10]
Does anyone else think this is a lot like losing real life money to fly a better ship?
I mean, we pay $$$ for a monthy sub, that sub directly translates to SP. T3 compromises the SP we earn, which in turn is like removing the time we paid for training.
Yes, you got the enjoyment of watching your shiny T3 ship go boom for your real life $$$, but seriously? This is one step away from buying uber in game items from the website store.
I've heard people speculate that it's the ship that loses experience (replacing crew, etc.) and not actual SP from your trained skills, there any truth to this? That seems to be a logical and acceptable alternative (and also serves as a reward for not losing your ship for long periods of activity, you get a more experienced "crew").
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.12 02:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gal'drea Does anyone else think this is a lot like losing real life money to fly a better ship?
I mean, we pay $$$ for a monthy sub, that sub directly translates to SP. T3 compromises the SP we earn, which in turn is like removing the time we paid for training.
Yes, you got the enjoyment of watching your shiny T3 ship go boom for your real life $$$, but seriously? This is one step away from buying uber in game items from the website store.
It's not. You pay Ç/$/ú to play the game. That sub does NOT directly translate into SP.
1. You can't buy SP directly. 2. You're not always gaining SP at the same rate. 3. You can chose to NOT train. 4. With your access you can do more than just gain SP. For example you can spend your time gaining ISK or (god forbid) have fun.
It's not "one-step away from buying uber in game items from the website store" (for one thing you can't directly buy SPs for your character). That part is the licensed GTC trade (buy GTCs, sell GTCs for ISK, use ISK to buy faction&deadspace&officer modules).
This is the first return of genuine Risk&Reward that can't be easily compensated for by just spending more $/ú/Ç. You don't want to risk SPs you can decide to not fly T3. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Totally Mental
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Posted - 2009.02.12 02:17:00 -
[12]
To PvP in them would be stupid because most fights involve battleships now. It's just a cruiser, so prepare to be training that skill repeatedly. |
Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:17:00 -
[13]
No they are not referencing the "experience of your crew," its SP that you trained in your skills tab.
And if you get lucky you can find solo people to fight. We should all be aware by now that in a 1v1 a cruiser can put up a hell of a fight against most battleships (exceptions being neut domi's and other nasty evil things of the nature).
Also, I still enjoy hac/hic/recon gangs in 0.0 and they are still effective, especially vs BS's. Just remember that cruisers are actually capable of being handled and not just bricks.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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Etria Issen
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: SadisticSavior Anyone know what the in-game explanation is for losing skill points? Like the neural interface fries your brain or something?
I think someone once thought of it as the ship 'learns'. And when it gets blown up you lose some of what you learned through the ship somehow.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:37:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 12/02/2009 04:37:26 obviously CCP is no longer capable of envisioning new niches in combat. Only able to one up themselves then place some ridiculous level of nerf upon the ship to limit it's use
t3 will be black ops
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Gal'drea
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:50:00 -
[16]
You're missing my point. You pay money to play Eve, no one willingly doesn't train skills, choosing not to as you suggest is idiotic and pointless. Who would choose not to get better?
You want risk vs. reward to come back without the risk being purely isk. I understand, but there are many other options. One would be to have T3 ships get BETTER the longer you fly the same one, and have it lose that edge when it is destroyed.
Leveraging player time in the form of SP is extremely wasteful though. It's not an isk sink, or a gametime sink, it's a real life time sink, and that I do not approve of.
I do have fun in Eve, but you can't tell me the most enjoyable part of Eve is waiting a week for your skills to improve. I love the fact that Eve doesn't have a grind for skill (ala attacking with a sword 1 Billion times to get better, only to do it all over again with a hammer), and T3 ships is bringing that into Eve.
The Eve-store example was simply pointing out, you're paying CCP to train those skills over and over, when your character walks away with less experience than if he flew a different ship? It's not right.
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 05:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Gal'drea You're missing my point. You pay money to play Eve, no one willingly doesn't train skills, choosing not to as you suggest is idiotic and pointless. Who would choose not to get better?
You want risk vs. reward to come back without the risk being purely isk. I understand, but there are many other options. One would be to have T3 ships get BETTER the longer you fly the same one, and have it lose that edge when it is destroyed.
Leveraging player time in the form of SP is extremely wasteful though. It's not an isk sink, or a gametime sink, it's a real life time sink, and that I do not approve of.
I do have fun in Eve, but you can't tell me the most enjoyable part of Eve is waiting a week for your skills to improve. I love the fact that Eve doesn't have a grind for skill (ala attacking with a sword 1 Billion times to get better, only to do it all over again with a hammer), and T3 ships is bringing that into Eve.
The Eve-store example was simply pointing out, you're paying CCP to train those skills over and over, when your character walks away with less experience than if he flew a different ship? It's not right.
Aye, I won't be flying such trash. I know many will but I'm sure I won't be the only one that will find it's not worth the risk of sp loss.
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Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:32:00 -
[18]
The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing.
T3 has to have some sort of downside. The downside of T2 is it isn't insurable. Suggest a different negative effect for T3 or you're trolling. Which, in Ships & Mods on EvE-O, wouldn't surprise me.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Totally Mental To PvP in them would be stupid because most fights involve battleships now. It's just a cruiser, so prepare to be training that skill repeatedly.
are you kidding?
have you played the game since qr?
a dps fitted small ship even up to battlecruiser size can take out a battleship... one of my corpmates' raven used to be the be all end all of pvp fights and the other day i watched him get taken down easily by a harbinger.
Recruiting \o/ |
K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tai Paktu The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing.
T3 has to have some sort of downside. The downside of T2 is it isn't insurable. Suggest a different negative effect for T3 or you're trolling. Which, in Ships & Mods on EvE-O, wouldn't surprise me.
this...
and given you will also be able to change your attributes in the next patch, if you specialize in t3 ships, you can train from lvl 3 - 4 very quickly - and well, unless you suck, u might just be wasting a couple of days training every-now n then... besides... gives all those 2003/04 players something (shorter) to train for.
Recruiting \o/ |
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tai Paktu The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing.
T3 has to have some sort of downside. The downside of T2 is it isn't insurable. Suggest a different negative effect for T3 or you're trolling. Which, in Ships & Mods on EvE-O, wouldn't surprise me.
so your reasoning is that cost and skill requirements aren't enough for the game anymore so we need to continually up the ante in regards to downsides for any new ships
this makes much more sense then making new niches in combat for new ships. justifying their existance instead of just making them because you can and tacking on silly downsides to using them
hey i got a great idea for tech 4. once you board the ship you have 30minutes until it automatically self destructs
tech 5? progressively damages any implants you may have in your head. mods/fitting cannot be removed/changed what so ever.
hey this is fun. i like the direction we are going in
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 07:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Tai Paktu The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing.
T3 has to have some sort of downside. The downside of T2 is it isn't insurable. Suggest a different negative effect for T3 or you're trolling. Which, in Ships & Mods on EvE-O, wouldn't surprise me.
so your reasoning is that cost and skill requirements aren't enough for the game anymore so we need to continually up the ante in regards to downsides for any new ships
this makes much more sense then making new niches in combat for new ships. justifying their existance instead of just making them because you can and tacking on silly downsides to using them
hey i got a great idea for tech 4. once you board the ship you have 30minutes until it automatically self destructs
tech 5? progressively damages any implants you may have in your head. mods/fitting cannot be removed/changed what so ever.
hey this is fun. i like the direction we are going in
slight exaggeration and a childs response to not getting what he/she wants
Recruiting \o/ |
Gal'drea
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Posted - 2009.02.12 07:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Tai Paktu The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing.
T3 has to have some sort of downside. The downside of T2 is it isn't insurable. Suggest a different negative effect for T3 or you're trolling. Which, in Ships & Mods on EvE-O, wouldn't surprise me.
so your reasoning is that cost and skill requirements aren't enough for the game anymore so we need to continually up the ante in regards to downsides for any new ships
this makes much more sense then making new niches in combat for new ships. justifying their existance instead of just making them because you can and tacking on silly downsides to using them
hey i got a great idea for tech 4. once you board the ship you have 30minutes until it automatically self destructs
tech 5? progressively damages any implants you may have in your head. mods/fitting cannot be removed/changed what so ever.
hey this is fun. i like the direction we are going in
slight exaggeration and a childs response to not getting what he/she wants
It's not about what we want. It's about the direction tech 3 is taking us. There are plenty of other imaginative risks which can be used to balance the reward T3 ships will offer, I mentioned one earlier. It is not the only option, and this is not a discussion of alternatives. This is simply pointing out what I believe is many players dislike of the proposed mechanic.
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.12 07:41:00 -
[24]
Most of the players who have been playing for years are rich. So loosing a battleship or t2 hac in a fight isn't really a risk for them. They probably have 20 of them fitted and ready to roll in their hangars.
CCP clearly stated that they wanted something else as risk for them than just loosing some ISK.
Noobies in these forums aren't even near to that position ISK wise. Or skill wise..
Imagine of having 60+ M SP full pvp character, pvp is only thing you do. You have pretty much all you need for pvp. What to do with training skills? Start training mining skills? What you do with mining skills? Nothing if you are pvp'eer.
This will be really interesting and really gives risk for older players too.
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.12 07:45:00 -
[25]
I for one welcome our T3 Overlords.
Apoctasy > unfortunately, Concord does not reimburse citizens for their own stupidity
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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.02.12 07:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tai Paktu The only other possible inhibiting factor for T3 become standard issue is cost. If past expansions have shown us anything at all, it is that ISK never remains an issue for long (hi titans and moms). With the amount of ISK people have, you could lose a T3 ship and then just hop back in another, going "lolisk" which is stupid and defeats the risk/reward factor of the game. Losing a capital (and earlier even a BS or a cruiser) used to be absolutely crippling to a player. That shows you that despite any ISK sinks CCP adss, the amount of currency in game is constantly increasing.
Listen, isk is a huge factor. The majority of the player base can barely afford to replace CS (ie me).
Losing a captial is still a huge loss for most pilots.
We dont all have isk-printing alts EVE history
t2 precisions |
Gal'drea
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Coronae Borealis Most of the players who have been playing for years are rich. So loosing a battleship or t2 hac in a fight isn't really a risk for them. They probably have 20 of them fitted and ready to roll in their hangars.
CCP clearly stated that they wanted something else as risk for them than just loosing some ISK.
Noobies in these forums aren't even near to that position ISK wise. Or skill wise..
Imagine of having 60+ M SP full pvp character, pvp is only thing you do. You have pretty much all you need for pvp. What to do with training skills? Start training mining skills? What you do with mining skills? Nothing if you are pvp'eer.
This will be really interesting and really gives risk for older players too.
Again, isk isn't the only solution here, and neither is losing SP. Saying that some people have more SP than they could ever need is still only some people. That's like saying there should be no more isk generation because old players have enough already. Is T3 designed to be only for '03/'04 characters? With only some slight modifications this could be an awesome mechanic for everyone, not just the already privileged older characters.
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Updyke
State Wh0re Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:25:00 -
[28]
You don't lose skill points if you eject.
This means that;
a) If you regularly fly and even lose T3 ships you don't have to lose a single SP. b) If you fight against T3 ships and get one to structure, there's a VERY good chance that the pilot will eject, meaning that you get a fully fitted t3 ship, in stead of a wreck.
everybody wins.
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thisisnotanalt
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:34:00 -
[29]
If we accept the time honored notion that time is money. Then quite simply, if this rumor is true that a loss of a T3 ship will set players back SP - then CCP is wasting our time and therefore our money. I will not be flying such if this is true. My time is valuable to me.
If the rumor is not true. Then whatever, life goes on.
As for the slippery slope argument that EVE could be heading in that direction, if there is any substantial evidence to support that. Then I could be revaluating where I spend my entertainment money (no this is not a emoragequit, this is simply as a consumer who has a right to chose where their entertainment dollars go).
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:37:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Garia666 on 12/02/2009 09:37:20 Cant you just eject before being kileld? www.garia.net |
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