Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Salvo Brunel
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 11:28:00 -
[1]
I canÆt see the point of the secondary market. (Well, I can see one point: to provide easy ISK to scammers, but I suspect that isnÆt the function we want it to have.)
Two types of characters might want to run an IPO.
New characters might need several billion to implement an idea. If they want more than 10b it is far too risky. If they want less than 10b they should fund it with GTCs. Even rip-off credit card companies charge less than 2% per month.
Existing characters should have access to the ISK they need anyway. If you have been playing this game for more than 18 months and you donÆt have at least 10b ISK you are no good at making money. Also, you should have friends / trusted business partners who would invest in you. If you business plan is so great, why are you giving strangers the chance to profit?
There will be a few unusual situations where an IPO is useful, but they will be very few and far between.
I believe that most of the æblue-chipÆ IPOs are essentially vanity projects. The people running them could easily have funded the project themselves (or privately).
|
Dan Ryan
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 12:03:00 -
[2]
I kinda-of agree with the OP's view.
I believe that people do it for the fun of it, rather than an ultimate NEED for it. People naturally want to work in groups / be part of a group, IPO's give them the interaction they want.
While the talk of a share exchange, i think its a bit of a joke. There is simply not enough of people interested in trading EVE stocks to make it a liquid market!
I the end i think, IPO as a means to a simple "partnership" type relationship, YES. IPO as a mean of secondary trade / playthings, NO.
|
The Truckdriver
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 12:41:00 -
[3]
An IPO collects an ammount of capital and makes it easier to start big projects, where a lonely players would take forever to gather an ammount of cash.
|
Salvo Brunel
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:09:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Salvo Brunel on 12/02/2009 13:13:56 Edited by: Salvo Brunel on 12/02/2009 13:09:29
Originally by: The Truckdriver An IPO collects an ammount of capital and makes it easier to start big projects, where a lonely players would take forever to gather an ammount of cash.
But it takes as long to build up the reputation to deserve to be given that cash by strangers. It pretty much comes down to this maxim:
Only invest your money in someone who has so much money they don't need investment.
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:31:00 -
[5]
You're right, we should just invest everything into Waffles and Syrup |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:34:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria You're right, we should just invest everything into Waffles and Syrup
But we did that already...
Black Sun Empire |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 13:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria You're right, we should just invest everything into Waffles and Syrup
But we did that already...
Keep buying, crop reports are due soon |
ResearchBunny Beatrix
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 14:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria You're right, we should just invest everything into Waffles and Syrup
At the very least we'll have food when we're penniless.
Mmm, delicious waffles.
|
Dranakolys
Gallente Theurgy
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 15:12:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dranakolys on 12/02/2009 15:13:10 From an investor's perspective, the answer is: Pretty much, yeah.
Your money is always one well-disguised scam, or one bored/tired/jaded manager away from catastrophe. Turning a profit as an investor requires luck as much as good judgement.
It is great for budding businessmen and scammers though
|
Rellik B00n
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 15:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Salvo Brunel If you have been playing this game for more than 18 months and you donÆt have at least 10b ISK you are no good at making money. Also, you should have friends / trusted business partners who would invest in you.
I largely agree with everything you said.
I feel its necessary to add:
Dont discount people like me that, whilst retaining a considerable sum in assets, simply cannot be arsed to play the games necessary to make 10bn. So much of this game is like watching paint dry and market manoeuvring fits into this category for me. This does not however mean that i never see great opportunities within Eves markets, its a question of motivation. If I spot a long term gain that would require substantial investment I would need to raise that ISK somehow.
also:
Social interaction is not my primary motive for playing this game. I know, I know - its an MMO - blathering to people is just not my thing. I have no MSN or x-fire and I only check my emails when it is absolutely necessary. There are people both in RL and IG that are made for networking and social interaction - more power to them. Once again however if I spot a long term gain that would require substantial investment I would need to raise that ISK somehow.
In the end im an '05 player that would happily submit to the jumping through hoops of audits and API checks and so on and etc, I simply felt that whilst I agree with the overall tone of your post the bit I quoted was a little bit blanket-coverage for something that involves dealing with humans.
|
|
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 15:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria You're right, we should just invest everything into Waffles and Syrup
But we did that already...
Keep buying, crop reports are due soon
Sir, what about pancakes?
Blueprint Store |
Salvo Brunel
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Rellik B00n
Dont discount people like me that, whilst retaining a considerable sum in assets, simply cannot be arsed to play the games necessary to make 10bn.
I wasn't intending to be dismissive of people who don't want to accumulate ISK. It's not even my main focus. The great thing about Eve is that you set your own goals. However, if I were investing I would want my ISK to go to someone who lives and breathes the minutia of money making ... and I have a hard time believing they need my investment.
|
Alija de'Chiarr
CF Capitalists Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:11:00 -
[13]
I can think of a scenario where the secondary market isn't pointless from an investor's point of view, namely "personal downtime", ie. when I take a break from the game, willingly or not. And for me, personally, I wouldn't tag this scenario as useless or unusual.
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Salvo Brunel
Originally by: Rellik B00n
Dont discount people like me that, whilst retaining a considerable sum in assets, simply cannot be arsed to play the games necessary to make 10bn.
I wasn't intending to be dismissive of people who don't want to accumulate ISK. It's not even my main focus. The great thing about Eve is that you set your own goals. However, if I were investing I would want my ISK to go to someone who lives and breathes the minutia of money making ... and I have a hard time believing they need my investment.
newer players wishing to break into new markets often do. Capital ship building was and still is to some degree a prime example of that. To get a freighter program going takes approx 9b-10b minimum in investment. Thats to get prints and the materials required to get an industrial line running 24/7.
Not many players younger than a year are going to have easy access to that type of capital without sinking 100% of what they have into it.
Public offerings allow them access to this earlier than they would have gotten normally. |
Salvo Brunel
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Alija de'Chiarr I can think of a scenario where the secondary market isn't pointless from an investor's point of view, namely "personal downtime".
My analysis was of the usefulness of the secondary market from the issuers perspective, but this has an impact on the investor. If there are few genuine reasons to issue an IPO then scam IPOs will predominate. I think the expected return from IPO investment must be very low. Even skilled investors seem to suffer a significant scam rate. Note there are alternative ways of 'investing' during a break - buying a basket of minerals which are currently underpriced is one.
|
Salvo Brunel
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
newer players wishing to break into new markets often do. Capital ship building was and still is to some degree a prime example of that. To get a freighter program going takes approx 9b-10b minimum in investment. Thats to get prints and the materials required to get an industrial line running 24/7.
Not many players younger than a year are going to have easy access to that type of capital without sinking 100% of what they have into it.
Public offerings allow them access to this earlier than they would have gotten normally.
But would people invest 10b in a newer player? Are we really unable to remember the lessons we learned only 3 weeks ago?
Avoiding Scams, lesson learned 1. Investments in new players asking for over 10B end in SCAM 50% of the time (3 of 6 in last year). Simple I don't invest in large IPO's for unknowns
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Salvo Brunel
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
newer players wishing to break into new markets often do. Capital ship building was and still is to some degree a prime example of that. To get a freighter program going takes approx 9b-10b minimum in investment. Thats to get prints and the materials required to get an industrial line running 24/7.
Not many players younger than a year are going to have easy access to that type of capital without sinking 100% of what they have into it.
Public offerings allow them access to this earlier than they would have gotten normally.
But would people invest 10b in a newer player? Are we really unable to remember the lessons we learned only 3 weeks ago?
Avoiding Scams, lesson learned 1. Investments in new players asking for over 10B end in SCAM 50% of the time (3 of 6 in last year). Simple I don't invest in large IPO's for unknowns
With certain conditions often yes, we will. Atima for example got the funding needed so long as the prints we're locked down and out of her control.
Often they may not need the entire 10b either, perhaps I want to invest 8b of my isk and only need a few extra billion of public funds to complete a set, or finish off whatever. |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:43:00 -
[18]
First I'd like to say that I appreciate this topic. My hat is off to you Taikun as this thread is definitely a worthwhile one.
I'm not exactly a blue chip person to invest in but I'm also not fly by night. The purpose of my current bond/ipo was not so much that I did not have people I could call or assets that I could liquidate to generate the isk I wanted to work with. Part of running a project with "borrowed" money is to extend your reach beyond your norms.
Mind you I also do it, publicly, as a way of interacting with a newer set of people. Instead of just keeping myself within the "old boys network" I try to create opportunities to network with newer people. Sometimes that means funding small potentials as well as being funded by small potentials.
Mind you my current bond is helping me to develop a side of economic game play that I tend to ignore. The "short term" turnover activity. However that is probably the weakest, but most profitable, purpose for my own bond.
Note: I am speaking egocentrically in this instance not to satisfy a "me me" complex but because my own bond is the one I can talk about most freely and fairly.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:55:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Salvo Brunel I believe that most of the æblue-chipÆ IPOs are essentially vanity projects. The people running them could easily have funded the project themselves (or privately).
Quite a few schemes I've audited have been of this nature. I see no reason to discourage people from doing so, though.
Quote: If you have been playing this game for more than 18 months and you donÆt have at least 10b ISK you are no good at making money.
Some people play for months or even years before they actually decide to try making any significant sums of isk. Don't write them off too quickly. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team |
Salvo Brunel
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 17:01:00 -
[20]
Shar, I think we agree more than we disagree. The secondary market isn't primarily about access to funds, it's about public interaction.
'Vanity projects' was somewhat inflammatory, but it's important to try to shake things up every now and then.
|
|
Ricdic
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 17:21:00 -
[21]
If you have to ask its obviously not for you. |
Sun Clausewitz
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 21:30:00 -
[22]
I still want to see shares able to be traded via some sort of in game market screen rather than relying on the current forms of share purchasing.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2009.02.12 21:38:00 -
[23]
Well, regarding functionality, there are a host of things that would help to strengthen the secondary market. Secure stock trading is only the tip of the iceberg.
The sad truth is that the secondary market suffers not from the points that Taikun has made but simply from lack of functionality. Stocks/shares are almost 100% as is from Eve launch. If I remember rightly the only change/addition to the system was the fact that now a list of shareholders can be viewed/generated. Other than that, the shares system has been a developmental wasteland.
I do not expect this to change so we are going to continue seeing an industry/community segment that is anemic.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Rekatan
Caldari Radioactive Battle Bunnies
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 03:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 03:20:54 I love how people think GTCs and plex are a legitimate form of income.
Stop comparing income that has to be earned in game to what you can buy with real world currency.
Fact of the matter is, anyone who depends on GTCs for their source of ISK is no different than the kid back when I was growing up who thought it was the coolest thing ever that he could beat Contra with the 99 lives konami code.
Bottom line, if you want to dumb down your game by selling GTCs, fine, it's ppl like you who allow me to run my many accounts without a single dime leaving my bank, but don't try to compare apples to oranges and criticize those who choose to actually play the game rather than buying their way through it with real world money, and above all don't make the flawed assumption that everyone else is just as willing to throw away hard earned cash on a game as you are.
So that being said, there you have it, there's why a secondary market is worth something, there's why any of eve's market is worth something, because there are still many many of us who actually play the game.
/rant off
|
Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 04:16:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rekatan Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 03:20:54 I love how people think GTCs and plex are a legitimate form of income.
Stop comparing income that has to be earned in game to what you can buy with real world currency.
How is earning stuff in the game really that much different from earning stuff IRL and using it to get stuff in the game? If you're better at the latter, it makes perfect sense to do it if you don't enjoy the moneymaking options the game offers.
|
Rekatan
Caldari Radioactive Battle Bunnies
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 04:33:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 04:34:50
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Rekatan Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 03:20:54 I love how people think GTCs and plex are a legitimate form of income.
Stop comparing income that has to be earned in game to what you can buy with real world currency.
How is earning stuff in the game really that much different from earning stuff IRL and using it to get stuff in the game? If you're better at the latter, it makes perfect sense to do it if you don't enjoy the moneymaking options the game offers.
It blows me away that people don't get it, but ok, here goes...
Lets say you're playing a different game... Mario brothers, to give a real identifiable example.
So, lets say nintendo re-released mario brothers 1 and from now on whenever you want a mushroom, instead of having to find one you can simply have 50 cents charged from your bank account. The game gets pretty damn easy doesn't it? There really isn't even much reason in playing.
To give a different example, lets say final fantasy 13 comes out and now you can spend 1 dollar per level and buy all the levels you want! (this is a perfect comparison since isk is at its core the grindable factor of eve, due to skillpoints being time based). You can cast all the best spells 5 minutes into the game if you're fool enough to part with your money so easily.
Does this sound fun to you?? No? So why in the world would you suck such a significant portion of the challenge out of Eve? It's one of the most challenging MMO games ever made, and by dumbing it down with real world currency in this fashion you're just selling yourself short of the full experience... Be it just supplementing your income just a little bit, or buying enough isk to purchase a 50 million sp character. One way or another every time you buy isk with real world currency you're turning down the difficulty slider just a little bit more.
Either way... When you're working you're working, and when you're playing a game you're playing a game! That earning ISK is "working" in your book, and you can't even fathom the difference, is an indicator that you're probably playing the wrong game.. As the challenge involved in earning the iskies should be part of what makes the game so fun! Not just some obstacle that you throw cash at in order to avoid.
|
Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 04:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rekatan Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 04:38:09
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Rekatan Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 03:20:54 I love how people think GTCs and plex are a legitimate form of income.
Stop comparing income that has to be earned in game to what you can buy with real world currency.
How is earning stuff in the game really that much different from earning stuff IRL and using it to get stuff in the game? If you're better at the latter, it makes perfect sense to do it if you don't enjoy the moneymaking options the game offers.
It blows me away that people don't get it, but ok, here goes...
Lets say you're playing a different game... Mario brothers, to give a real identifiable example.
So, lets say nintendo re-released mario brothers 1 and from now on whenever you want a mushroom, instead of having to find one you can simply have 50 cents charged from your bank account. The game gets pretty damn easy doesn't it? There really isn't even much reason in playing.
To give a different example, lets say final fantasy 13 comes out and now you can spend 1 dollar per level and buy all the levels you want! (this is a perfect comparison since isk is at its core the grindable factor of eve, due to skillpoints being time based). You can cast all the best spells 5 minutes into the game if you're fool enough to part with your money so easily.
Does this sound fun to you?? No? So why in the world would you suck such a significant portion of the challenge out of Eve? It's one of the most challenging MMO games ever made, and by dumbing it down with real world currency in this fashion you're just selling yourself short of the full experience... Be it just supplementing your income just a little bit, or buying enough isk to purchase a 50 million sp character. One way or another every time you buy isk with real world currency you're turning down the difficulty slider just a little bit more.
Either way... When you're working you're working, and when you're playing a game you're playing a game! That earning ISK is "working" in your book, and you can't even fathom the difference, is an indicator that you're probably playing the wrong game.. As the challenge involved in earning the iskies should be part of what makes the game so fun! Not just some obstacle that you throw cash at in order to avoid.
Anyways, sry to OP... I think I hijacked the thread with my little rant heh, sorry about that.
The 1 dollar/50 cent comparison sort of trivializes the RL effort involved in earning that amount of money. In EVE people can spend hundreds of dollars.
I thought the question was whether or not the ISK was really "earned" when you got it via PLEX selling. If earning just means that some nontrivial amount of work was done somewhere to achieve the goal, then the person with a job earned the ISK just as much as the ratter.
Does "cheating" past certain game obstacles sound fun? Not to you, but by revealed preference, the people that buy ISK find using expensive ships far more fun than earning them. You enjoy grinding, they don't. You enjoy figuring out how to make ISK without grinding, they don't. People have different preferences. It blows me away that you don't get that.
|
Rekatan
Caldari Radioactive Battle Bunnies
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 04:59:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 04:59:37 As I said, if anyone has to pick and choose specific elements of the game to the extent of removing the entire currency factor in order to have fun... They're playing the wrong game.
Anyways, hijack over.
|
Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 21:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Rekatan Edited by: Rekatan on 13/02/2009 03:20:54 I love how people think GTCs and plex are a legitimate form of income.
Stop comparing income that has to be earned in game to what you can buy with real world currency.
Fact of the matter is, anyone who depends on GTCs for their source of ISK is no different than the kid back when I was growing up who thought it was the coolest thing ever that he could beat Contra with the 99 lives konami code.
Bottom line, if you want to dumb down your game by selling GTCs, fine, it's ppl like you who allow me to run my many accounts without a single dime leaving my bank, but don't try to compare apples to oranges and criticize those who choose to actually play the game rather than buying their way through it with real world money, and above all don't make the flawed assumption that everyone else is just as willing to throw away hard earned cash on a game as you are.
So that being said, there you have it, there's why a secondary market is worth something, there's why any of eve's market is worth something, because there are still many many of us who actually play the game.
/rant off
But you are buying GTCs yourself so you are part of the "dumb game".
I would never buy or sell GTCs. Selling them is like you are wasting real life money to become more powerful than others ingame just cause you have no gaming skills (sad).
And buying them means your ingame wallet becomes smaller cause you are kinda tight with real life money and your gaming experience gets decreased. Or in your case you use it to play several accounts to become more powerful.
Am I the only dude who play as its supposed to be? 1 account, 1 character, regular subscription and thats it.
|
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 22:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria You're right, we should just invest everything into Waffles and Syrup
But we did that already...
Keep buying, crop reports are due soon
^^ Classic - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |