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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Huan CK
Gallente GK inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 08:13:00 -
[271]
Quote: Ejecting or self-destructing does prevent the penalty, giving players an incentive to abandon ship from time to time.
I hope you KNOW what this means, CCP!!
You need: a) WAY shorter self destruction delays, so that self destruction actually is an option in combat, but finetuned so that it cannot be exploited to manipulate combat logs. b) A shortcut for both, eject and self destruct. If you are in combat and want to safe your skillpoints, this means you need the chance to actually get out before it blows. In the current state, this is how it would happen:
Quote: right-click ship -->eject "are you sure you want to do this y/n" --- "poof - your t3 ship blew before you were able to eject, byebye skillpoints"
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Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 08:37:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Huan CK
Quote: Ejecting or self-destructing does prevent the penalty, giving players an incentive to abandon ship from time to time.
I hope you KNOW what this means, CCP!!
You need: a) WAY shorter self destruction delays, so that self destruction actually is an option in combat, but finetuned so that it cannot be exploited to manipulate combat logs. b) A shortcut for both, eject and self destruct. If you are in combat and want to safe your skillpoints, this means you need the chance to actually get out before it blows. In the current state, this is how it would happen:
Quote: right-click ship -->eject "are you sure you want to do this y/n" --- "poof - your t3 ship blew before you were able to eject, byebye skillpoints"
Self destruct should be shorter, but not so short that it is a replacement for ejecting. Ejecting should be relatively fast (I want to hit a big red button on my keyboard for ejecting!), so a shortcut should be good.
Ejecting should leave enough time for the aggressors to actually capture the ship, self destruct obviously not. I don't remember if self destruct stops if you eject after starting it, I think that shouldn't be allowed (people should be allowed to capture ships). |
Antimony Noske
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:13:00 -
[273]
I don't understand why so many people are so gosh-darned happy about having their skillpoints taken away.
What do we lose without this feature? Nothing! It doesn't provide any benefit to anyone but the hardest of the hardcore who absolutely must have that additional risk; and even THAT doesn't matter, because if anyone wanted MORE risk, they'd buy extra expensive modules, or use non-updated clones. [Do we actually see that happening? Not really.]
Amazingly, yes there will be people crying "Why can't I lose my skillpoints when I die, CCP???" if this feature is removed, but they're going to be in the minority compared to the people who Don't want this feature added. [And they can always decide not to update their clones in order to 'simulate' having this feature anyways.]
If the feature were removed right now, me and a lot of other players breathe a sigh of relief, and a select few opine how "those damn bastards got their way, those whiny *****es". Plus maybe a few threads about how CCP is caving in to 'carebears'. [The least effected by the skillpoint loss.] But then that's the end of it.
If the feature sticks around, CCP you're going to be risking subscriptions from those who, on principle, won't put up with that kind of game design, you're going to have people sticking around who completely refuse to use tech 3 out of the box, [40% of the playerbase refuses to use a brand new feature you spent months working on? IT COULD HAPPEN!] you're opening up a lot of problems with petitions, and you're going to drive away new players. For what? So we can have a little more risk when flying a ship, when that option is already there for those who want it?
Look at it from a PR point of view: "With the brand new Tech 3 ships, you can now spend weeks retraining skills over and over again!"
This is a sodding disaster in the making.
What if, in the future, CCP decides to add even more skillpoint loss mechanics? "Now Tech 3 modules incur skillpoint loss! Being killed in a station with WiS results in skillpoint loss! This or that new shiny feature results in skillpoint loss!" Sorry, that's when I pick up my ball and go home. THAT, is not the kind of game I want to play, and it is not the kind of game I originally subscribed to. It's not enjoyable, it's just masochistic punishment for giving CCP my money.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:37:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Spacy Cadette The concept of loosing skill points to a random "I flew though a gate and lagged out, cause it was Jita" will be a major detriment to flying of T3 ships. There is no way one can avoid such situations in this game. The number of times each and every one of us who has done any PVP experiences lag, to end up loosing a week of training, without any recourse or method of protection, is a FAIL.
I am sorry CCP. I was so excited about T3. This just killed it for me, as well as for the majority of people that I know. Unless these ships are Uber WTF PWN! machines right out of the box, I seriously doubt they will end up being used for much more than novelty right now. And if they are that powerful, the concept of balance has gone away.
Who, seriously, if the ships are balanced, would bother with this instead of learning a 2nd, 3rd or 4th racial class, or going towards capital ships?
My alt is a 20 mil SP all caldari toon, command ship specialist. I was going to put about 2 mil more skill points in, then I figured I had a decison, go for another race (amarr probably) or go for T3 ships. Decision has been made now, no questions. Not even close. When I hit that 100 mil point I might reconsider. Same with this industry toon - ya, I can fly an Arazu, but I will go for a carrier now instead of a T3 ship. I bet most people will make similar decisions.
Shame, T3 has such potential.
yes you can. I fly most of time for PVP in this game, mostly t2 cruisers, and last time I lost a t2 cruiser was in july 2008. Just use your brain and you won't loose more than 1 ship per month unless you are fighting in blobs. And at least on on each 3 times you will be able to eject to save your SP. So if at end of a full year you loose more than 7 days of training with t3 ships while pvping most of time you are a "sub standard pvper" |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:51:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Antimony Noske Edited by: Antimony Noske on 14/02/2009 09:17:23 I don't understand why so many people are so gosh-darned happy about having their skillpoints taken away.
What do we lose without this feature? Nothing! It doesn't provide any benefit to anyone but the hardest of the hardcore who absolutely must have that additional risk; and even THAT doesn't matter, because if anyone wanted MORE risk, they'd buy extra expensive modules, or use non-updated clones. [Do we actually see that happening? Not really.]
Amazingly, yes there will be people crying "Why can't I lose my skillpoints when I die, CCP???" if this feature is removed, but they're going to be in the minority compared to the people who Don't want this feature added. [And they can always decide not to update their clones in order to 'simulate' having this feature anyways.]
If the feature were removed right now, me and a lot of other players breathe a sigh of relief, and a select few opine how "those damn bastards got their way, those whiny b****es". Plus maybe a few threads about how CCP is caving in to 'carebears'. [The least effected by the skillpoint loss.] But then that's the end of it.
If the feature sticks around, CCP you're going to be risking subscriptions from those who, on principle, won't put up with that kind of game design, you're going to have people sticking around who completely refuse to use tech 3 out of the box, [40% of the playerbase refuses to use a brand new feature you spent months working on? IT COULD HAPPEN!] you're opening up a lot of problems with petitions, and you're going to drive away new players. For what? So we can have a little more risk when flying a ship, when that option is already there for those who want it?
Look at it from a PR point of view: "With the brand new Tech 3 ships, you can now spend weeks retraining skills over and over again!" [And there's more room for PR then the official channels, word of mouth goes a long way. People can and WILL make fun of/degrade Eve for having this feature.]
This is a sodding disaster in the making.
What if, in the future, CCP decides to add even more skillpoint loss mechanics? "Now Tech 3 modules incur skillpoint loss! Being killed in a station with WiS results in skillpoint loss! This or that new shiny feature results in skillpoint loss!" Sorry, that's when I pick up my ball and go home. THAT, is not the kind of game I want to play, and it is not the kind of game I originally subscribed to. It's not enjoyable, it's just masochistic punishment for me giving CCP money.
Even though your avatar is Female, I'm almost certain your a girl IRL.
BooHoo, a new--and completely seperate--feature requires SP loss and you're whining about it like your mascara has ran out, grow up and get a pair. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Antimony Noske
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:16:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Antimony Noske on 14/02/2009 10:18:35
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Even though your avatar is Female, I'm almost certain your a girl IRL.
BooHoo, a new--and completely seperate--feature requires SP loss and you're whining about it like your mascara has ran out, grow up and get a pair.
Nice grasp of logic you've got there champ. I'm a girl, so therefore I'm wrong.
With an attitude like that, it's no wonder nobody's going to take you seriously. Maybe you could try again when you're intellectually capable of making arguments based on more than random insults and ad hominem attacks.
Edit: To put it in dumb for you: Attack and argue what I say. Not who I am. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:52:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Daan Sai Who else has noticed that by encouraging T3 pilots to eject or self-destruct (to save SP), that it is going to really annoy the pirates wanting a T3 killmail.
If you destroy ship w/o pilot you still get mail. And as its cruiser self-destruct will only save you from frigs. Most other cruisers will vaporize it within 1 (or was it 2?) minutes timeframe.
As for T3 and skill loss? ******ed. T3 and prices? from last calculations (on needed gases to build hull) guys on forums came up with 400m as being very cheap. So i guess t3 ships might cost even up to 700+mil.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:59:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/02/2009 11:02:20 Antimony Noske said "I don't understand why so many people are so gosh-darned happy about having their skillpoints taken away." It has next to no impact for some of us. The carebares rarely if ever lose ships so they don't care. Some of the older players have ran out of useful skills to train and don't care about losing a few SP's. I don't really like the idea of SP loss but I don't worry about it as it's not going have any negative impact on me. It's mostly the lower SP/younger pilots who get the high negative impact from SP loss. The only thing I dont like about T3 is how easy it is to train to get into one. I was hopeing it would give some long term training goals.
EDIT: In a strange way it might even be a positive not a negative. A high SP player with nothing left to train is wondering what to train. He/she accidently loses the T3 ship and now has something worthwhile to train again. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:06:00 -
[279]
I wonder how people can run out of "stuff to train". Im 70mil SP atm (around 3-5m SP wasted on mining/production/research in newb days) and yet have skill que of another 20mil SP. Max drone skills (all lv5), max gunnery (all lv5). And thats with 3 races cruiser lv5 and only 1 race BS lv5.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:26:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/02/2009 11:06:11 I wonder how people can run out of "stuff to train". Im 70mil SP atm (around 3-5m SP wasted on mining/production/research in newb days) and yet have skill que of another 20mil SP. Max drone skills (all lv5), max gunnery (all lv5) still to train. And thats with 3 races cruiser lv5 and only 1 race BS lv5.
They run out of relevant skills to train. Some have trained the ships they fly to max and don't care about the rest. To continue training on such a character would just increase the cost of losing clones. I personally crosstrain, but in all honesty I propably only fly 3-4 different ships and don't really care about the rest. I continue training more for the possibility that I get bored and want to do something different(also for nerfbat immunity :P), than any actual need to train further. |
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:28:00 -
[281]
You teasing bas****@!"ú*O&(*&*YF!!!
YOURE CHANGING THE CONCEPT ART PICTURE!!!
C.
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TorTorden
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:33:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Rivqua
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
- Skillpoint loss will result is lack of use
- Lack of use will result in low prices
- Low prices will result in little profit for related material acquisition, research, and production
- Lack of profit will lead to lack of use of these features
- Lack of use pretty much invalidates the primary content of the entire expansion
While some are willing to risk SP loss (and be the clusters first called primary and favorite suicide-gank-4-lulz target) we're talking about a relatively small market, these ships aren't for everyone for many their SP are precious being the only way to truly improve your character over time. If this follows through we'll end up with a whole lot of features that may as well not exist due to lack of use.
The whole SP loss system massively benefits those players with SP levels well beyond those gathered by the average player in their 7 month average (?) time in the game. Splitting it racially makes it worse as those with high SP will have three other races worth of t3 ship skills to fall back on. This all means that the older a character is the less they have to lose.
Combine the subsystem skills and provide a separate SP pool for subsystems to maintain the high level of risk (losing a level IV/V will still be significant) or drop the SP loss idea.
Either way the increased risk promotes empire use while punishing PvP use, promotes blobbing while punishing riskier styles of play and ejecting removing the penalty effectively makes it a punishment solely for those with high latency or suffering from lag, a genuinely terrible idea.
Other than all the SP related stuff the concept looks fantastic, as do the models. Im just glad Im not the one responsible for balancing it.
I think you underestimate the pvp mind. I would guess they will one day equal the number of Command ships sold per race on the market.
/Riv
And with these skills being rank 1, for most people with their learning skills done that means traning a lvl 4 to lvl 5 would take aproximatly four days. Not exactly completely cripling loss lvl 3-4 aprox 17 hours. that would let you lose a ship, log off for the night, go to work, and come back and go out an lose it again. The only change the aspect of losing a skill lvl might change is to make the eject from ship function actualy usefull. (Pirates rejoice) |
Miniturret
Amarr Mining Under the influence of Sugar Pals
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:56:00 -
[283]
Edited by: Miniturret on 14/02/2009 14:59:09 What has caused the "the sudden rift in the symbiotic ship relationship"? What is the backstory behind this thinking? You are developing an mmoRPG emphasis on the RPG part what reason do you have to implement this other than [sarcasm] well shucks we dun need moar risk so we gonna punish them for flying this here ship. [/sarcasm]
Seriously though it's a ROLE PLAYING game, what reason do you have for this other than more risk?
I would like to know since we already have that relationship with current ships (one person controlling a carrier, dreadnought, battleship etc.) so if the "symbiotic ship relationship" has a rift in it is it going to expand to inculde T1 and T2 ships as well? since hey there's not enough risk to fly those either.
Also I look forward to the first person to fly one through highsec and get popped by a ganker. I hope it's one of the ones that doesn't mind the SP lose. that's not pvp you didn't have time to SD or eject, or even return fire most times. you'll jump into system and next you know your in your pod and short a few days training. sitting there going WTF just happened?
Another question I have since the ships are modular is there a chance for the ship parts to drop as loot as the modules do?
So to recap my questions for the dev's
1) What has caused the "rift with the symbiotic ship relationship"? 2) What is the backstory / reason for the rift? (goes hand in hand with question 1) -=Edit=- 3) Will the rift expand further to include T1 and T2 ships as well? 4) Do the ship parts have a chance to drop as normal modules do when the ship explodes or are they blown up 100% of the time?
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2009.02.14 16:06:00 -
[284]
/me chants *TomB TomB TomB TomB TomB TomB*
wait wtf happened to your pic TomB you used to be one sick looking jove and i mean that in a good way lol
Originally by: CCP Abraxas Her boyfriend's way hot, too; tall and tanned. And I say this as a very hetero male who doesn't ever dream of the man on cold, dark nights.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 22:02:00 -
[285]
I hope all Subsystems Ships and Bonuses are added soon.
All Cruisers require extensive testing and balancing and the time until march the 10.th is already growing short.
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Graw Rayes
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Posted - 2009.02.15 03:28:00 -
[286]
HOW ABOUT A NEW learning skill
that reduces the sp loss at the point of death by 10%
Say subsystem memorization or someting similiar.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.02.15 11:08:00 -
[287]
Tbh, I can't guess what CCP thought about when they considered the SP loss.... Perhaps it's a pre-nerf to ensure demand for these ships will not be high.
It basically ensures that these ships will only be used very rarely in PvP, probably only in solo PvP and for sure not in gang/fleet.... In any kind of gang/fleet fight, they're sure to be primaried!
They'll have to provide MASSIVE advantages to overcome this, and it doesn't sound like they do...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Glarion Garnier
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.02.15 15:00:00 -
[288]
Well one thing that is sure to happen. Most ppl will train advanced learning skills to 5 _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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Hunter GlobaGateways
Caldari The Edge Foundation Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.02.15 16:02:00 -
[289]
WTF !
Quote: Skills
The Tech 3 entry level will be very similar to the Tech 2 one, only requiring fairly basic skills to pilot. Of course, additional skills will be required to fully utilize the different subsystems.
Each race will have a set of 5 subsystem skills as well as a ship skill. The subsystem skills have very basic requirements and are only "rank 1". These affect the subsystem bonuses. Don't think we decided to have them rank 1 just to be cordial though; they don't function like other skills when it comes to ship loss. This is important: Due to the sudden rift in the symbiotic ship relationship that exists between a pilot and a Tech 3 ship, losing a Tech 3 ship will result in a random skillpoint loss from one of the racial subsystem skills. The penalty is one level off the top. Observe that whether that is a downgrade from, say, level 2 to 1 on your underdeveloped electronics or a painful fall from level 5 to 4 on the spit-polished offensive subsystem, is entirely dependent upon lady luck. Ejecting or self-destructing does prevent the penalty, giving players an incentive to abandon ship from time to time.
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Akor Flandres
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:32:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Miniturret Edited by: Miniturret on 14/02/2009 14:59:09 What has caused the "the sudden rift in the symbiotic ship relationship"? What is the backstory behind this thinking? You are developing an mmoRPG emphasis on the RPG part what reason do you have to implement this other than [sarcasm] well shucks we dun need moar risk so we gonna punish them for flying this here ship. [/sarcasm]
Seriously though it's a ROLE PLAYING game, what reason do you have for this other than more risk?
I would like to know since we already have that relationship with current ships (one person controlling a carrier, dreadnought, battleship etc.) so if the "symbiotic ship relationship" has a rift in it is it going to expand to inculde T1 and T2 ships as well? since hey there's not enough risk to fly those either.
Also I look forward to the first person to fly one through highsec and get popped by a ganker. I hope it's one of the ones that doesn't mind the SP lose. that's not pvp you didn't have time to SD or eject, or even return fire most times. you'll jump into system and next you know your in your pod and short a few days training. sitting there going WTF just happened?
Another question I have since the ships are modular is there a chance for the ship parts to drop as loot as the modules do?
So to recap my questions for the dev's
1) What has caused the "rift with the symbiotic ship relationship"? 2) What is the backstory / reason for the rift? (goes hand in hand with question 1) -=Edit=- 3) Will the rift expand further to include T1 and T2 ships as well? 4) Do the ship parts have a chance to drop as normal modules do when the ship explodes or are they blown up 100% of the time?
You fail at understanding. T3 ships are made from Sleeper technology reverse engineered. Sleeper technology having a big part in the symbiosis stuff.
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Kadriel
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.02.15 20:04:00 -
[291]
I like what I'm reading about the upcoming expansion (wormholes, new fitting, tech II, etc..). However, one thing bothers me.
losing a Tech 3 ship will result in a random skillpoint loss from one of the racial subsystem skills.
I think this is utter ******ation at its finest. The only way this would make sense was if the skills were a 0.01 multiplier or something. Losing skillpoints because of a ship loss makes no sense in eve. You can explain away how the quality of the clone affects your 'backup' of skill training. How would a ship loss make you forget something you trained? I mean, the 'knowledge' is in your head, losing a physical object not connected to your mind doesn't make sense.
Let me go play baseball... oh wait, I lost my bat, therefore, I have no knowledge of how to play the game of baseball anymore. Same line of thinking goes into losing skillpoints because of a ship loss. Its kinda dumb.
Previous rant aside, I think all of you are doing an awesome job.
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Kadriel
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.02.15 20:06:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Graw Rayes HOW ABOUT A NEW learning skill
that reduces the sp loss at the point of death by 10%
Say subsystem memorization or someting similiar.
How about 20% per level. Sounds peachy to me.
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Akor Flandres
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Posted - 2009.02.15 20:07:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Kadriel I like what I'm reading about the upcoming expansion (wormholes, new fitting, tech II, etc..). However, one thing bothers me.
losing a Tech 3 ship will result in a random skillpoint loss from one of the racial subsystem skills.
I think this is utter ******ation at its finest. The only way this would make sense was if the skills were a 0.01 multiplier or something. Losing skillpoints because of a ship loss makes no sense in eve. You can explain away how the quality of the clone affects your 'backup' of skill training. How would a ship loss make you forget something you trained? I mean, the 'knowledge' is in your head, losing a physical object not connected to your mind doesn't make sense.
Let me go play baseball... oh wait, I lost my bat, therefore, I have no knowledge of how to play the game of baseball anymore. Same line of thinking goes into losing skillpoints because of a ship loss. Its kinda dumb.
Previous rant aside, I think all of you are doing an awesome job.
Because it is sleeper technology. Without a mechanic like this, T3 is just what? This adds an extra edge. Boo hoo you lose a level from a rank 1 skill in a random specific Tú category of skills. People will live with it.
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Learol
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:36:00 -
[294]
loved the pic of that Min-SCruiser... 6 turret slots... Mmmmmmmmmm |
Kadriel
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:13:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Kadriel on 16/02/2009 00:13:33
Originally by: Akor Flandres Mindless talk
Without this mechanic its what? Exactly, just like the rest of eve. Why should it be a different way of doing things than the rest of eve? Sure, T3 is new, but its to add to the eve experience, not differ from eve we all know and mostly love.
How about you giving up a level of battleship next time you go pop? Just sayin...
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:27:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Akor Flandres Because it is sleeper technology. Without a mechanic like this, T3 is just what? This adds an extra edge. Boo hoo you lose a level from a rank 1 skill in a random specific Tú category of skills. People will live with it.
Actually, I don't think people will..... Or rather, they'll live with it like in 'Not using T3 for PvP'....
Losing a level doesn't sound too serious, but then when you're talking about losing a level EVERY time your ships gets blown up, it's an entirely different matter....
Say you have a mixture of L4 and L5 in the skills, and lose maybe 2 days on average.... Once you've lost 15 ships, you've lost a MONTH(!) worth of training!
So... T3 will be great for empire PvE, but not used much other than that.... That'll of.c. also affect the demand for it, and affect the attractiveness of actually looking for T3 materials etc.
If this is a pre-nerf to limit uptake, fine, but IMHO I think it'll more or less kill T3 before it has even started....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 09:36:00 -
[297]
Exactly, so only those who are able to do risk-management will be flying T3.
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Mana Sanqua
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:54:00 -
[298]
I am very disappointed by the skill loss mechanic. I for one won't be flying the ships or training them, but I guarantee they will be primary on sight.
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Miniturret
Amarr Mining Under the influence of Sugar Pals
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:58:00 -
[299]
1) What is the backstory / reason for the rift? 2) Will the rift expand further to include T1 and T2 ships as well much like an infection? 3) Do the ship parts have a chance to drop as normal modules do when the ship explodes or are they blown up 100% of the time? 4) Will a learning skill be introduced to limit the effect or negate the sp lose?
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Athene
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:36:00 -
[300]
Im not sure about the sp loss. I do however see one nice detail in it.
Those that use their brains, and fight smart, gets to keep their sub skill levels, and thus able to fight on. Those that dont, dont get to just hop into another pre-fitted ship right away and go at it again.
It ads sort of an exstra dimension to the game, and might actually make a difference in small gang skirmishes, as noone would be interested in blob wars where you loose all exit options if called primary, or somet.
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