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EthanPow
Caldari Drakeal Inc. Drakeal Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:37:00 -
[1]
after doing a few tests, and 1.2 billion isk, scaming is way too common in eve-online. and needs to be made in a way that a Corporation or alliance can reclaim stolen isk if not have concord have a negative againist the alliance or corporation that the scam has happened.
Problem: it only takes a smooth talker, though there are way too many and too far of scamers in eve, *cough* Goons *cough* which leaves the problem that there hardly any real "new" players, so pretty much they leave form the scam and players ask "can I have your stuff"
Suggestion: not to get rid of scamming, just make it harder to do so. also make people be more involved with free form contracts, like any TOS, if it clearly states whats going on, the victim cannot reclaim the isk, and possible concord will act against it.
so any scam that doesn't inclued a contract that has 250mil or more in payment, and if reported within a month time the money could be reclaimed and a small negative can be placed againist the alliance. but as long scamming is rare on a corporation or player the standing that has been effected will change back to normal.
so when a alliance scams too much within a 30 day period, concord can have the "alliance" drop their standings to -10 as well have a bounty on the alliance (shared with each pilot. and randomized) pilots of that alliance can not claim the bounties on each other, and makes them LARGER targets for bounty hunters.
another reason is the 'police' have control of the flow of money in a way, scamming is a criminal offense and should be treated as such
Effect: no large alliance don't take chances with scamming with a smooth voice, they need the legal documentation to back it up. so it has to clearly state it, if someone is stupid enough to go for it then nothing bad happens to the alliance or corporation.
this doesn't effect when the deal been completed if the deal did go though and player still complains that he or she was scammed would make the police take actions against that pilot.
Extra Note: Real life has scammers as well, not many scams get away so easy. so make it harder so it would make eve better.
I bet many players will agree scams happen TOO much within eve therefore I suggest this so it takes more effort to fool someone. this will make scammers make their own small corps and scam with contracts. therefore if you read it or accept it, there is no help for the scammed if they completely fall into the trap. also this suggestion only effects scams that take your money or your ships/equipment (they agreed to return them to you and don't), if they bring you out to lowsec and ransom you form the money your worth then that shouldn't take effect then, your to blame. What ever you do, DO NOT, for love of god, do not use that smartbomb |
mcnuggetlol
Amarr Outlandish Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:02:00 -
[2]
People just need to stop being so damn gullible and careless
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:57:00 -
[3]
Originally by: mcnuggetlol People just need to stop being so damn gullible and careless
yes. brains, you have them. use them.
all scams in eve are pitifully transperent if you dont let your greed run away with you.
sadly, people see a "sisters scan probe launcher" on the market for 15 mil, and jump on it without thinking.
but thats hardly CCP's problem. on the contrary, they encourage it! |
EthanPow
Caldari Drakeal Inc. Drakeal Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sir Substance
Originally by: mcnuggetlol People just need to stop being so damn gullible and careless
yes. brains, you have them. use them.
all scams in eve are pitifully transperent if you dont let your greed run away with you.
sadly, people see a "sisters scan probe launcher" on the market for 15 mil, and jump on it without thinking.
but thats hardly CCP's problem. on the contrary, they encourage it!
thats a contract scam, which that shouldn't be effected, if you get fooled that way then CCP won't do crap
I am talking about having to trust someone and they pull the rug under you, anyone can be scamed or tricked that way even if they promise to return the items, so I believe if the items stolen or items not given for isk you already paid for will be forcablty returned if it gos over 250mil in cost.
it doesn't go into the area of brains, its a area of trust, which form my end a different view on this problem. if its a "contract" then its the victim's fault, but if you have to trust the person and in the chat log within the month states he WILL return your items, then ccp should act against it. its the area of keeping people that feed on getting trust and ****ing them over is the point I am making here, anyone can be messed up in that way no matter how "smart" you are. |
Adaera
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: mcnuggetlol People just need to stop being so damn gullible and careless
This. I've seen all sorts of scams, and I find it downright incredible that anyone sober can fall for them. ___________________
I for one welcome our new bee overlords |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:39:00 -
[6]
Troll? 1/10?
Assume everyone's going to scam you?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:44:00 -
[7]
The problem is, 99.9% of the players arent idiots and dont fall for it. But to reach the 0.1% who are idiots, they keep spamming, mainly in jita local, just to reach that 0.1%. And imo something needs to be done to remove that. But imo giving back the money is not the solution. Dropping sec status also doesnt help, because they use alts which never leave the station. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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EthanPow
Caldari Drakeal Inc. Drakeal Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 13:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Troll? 1/10?
Assume everyone's going to scam you?
no got scammed on this and other characters on propose. that was the test, I was already aware that their main goal was without risking everything. I took the time to act like I had no idea. |
EthanPow
Caldari Drakeal Inc. Drakeal Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 13:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Furb Killer The problem is, 99.9% of the players arent idiots and dont fall for it. But to reach the 0.1% who are idiots, they keep spamming, mainly in jita local, just to reach that 0.1%. And imo something needs to be done to remove that. But imo giving back the money is not the solution. Dropping sec status also doesnt help, because they use alts which never leave the station.
If your talking about the contract scams, thats their fault, its the fact that players undermine others too easy, which loses the Favor of new players, less and less new people join, or they refuse because how the universe is already taken by the largest alliances or all lowsec never safe, and your stuck with highsec with a bantam, wishing what could have been
so I am suggesting something to make scams more complex not the "oh I scammed you" they would have to wait 30 days this hole time BSing to the victim, if not the player can submit a Fraud to Concord which a GM could look at.
in a way I want to see scams be more complex and require more time to work it out. atleast giving a victim more tools, but it still has to workout in a way.
but still you have to be clever not smart to scam someone. |
Isabella Montague
Gallente RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.14 13:23:00 -
[10]
To make scamming harder CCP would have to make players smarter, and I don't think they have that much power. |
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Georgina Eldridge
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Posted - 2009.02.14 13:24:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Furb Killer The problem is, 99.9% of the players arent idiots and dont fall for it. But to reach the 0.1% who are idiots, they keep spamming, mainly in jita local, just to reach that 0.1%. And imo something needs to be done to remove that. But imo giving back the money is not the solution. Dropping sec status also doesnt help, because they use alts which never leave the station.
Ban the spammer' main account. |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.15 01:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: EthanPow
I am talking about having to trust someone and they pull the rug under you, anyone can be scamed or tricked that way even if they promise to return the items, so I believe if the items stolen or items not given for isk you already paid for will be forcablty returned if it gos over 250mil in cost.
it doesn't go into the area of brains, its a area of trust, which form my end a different view on this problem. if its a "contract" then its the victim's fault, but if you have to trust the person and in the chat log within the month states he WILL return your items, then ccp should act against it. its the area of keeping people that feed on getting trust and ****ing them over is the point I am making here, anyone can be messed up in that way no matter how "smart" you are.
this is precicely the behavoir CCP is trying to engourage.
a quote from the wikipedia article on eve:
"Virtual crime
Piracy (in the ship-to-ship sense) is part of the game, as is protection racketeering and theft. One example is the corporate heist perpetrated by the in-game assassin's guild Guiding Hand Social Club (GHSC). GHSC infiltrated a target corporation over the course of nearly a year before performing a virtual assassination on the target's CEO and stealing or destroying billions of ISK worth of property with which the CEO had entrusted them.[67] Events of this nature are debated both inside the game world and in the media.[68]
Such dangers are an inherent part of Eve Online's virtual economy and thus are purposely not dealt with by the developers.[69] Players are expected to make financial decisions based (among other factors) on the possibility of other players' financial malpractice, much like in real-life economics."
people will shaft you. eve is like life in this respect. keep an eye on your stuff, and trust people only as far as you would be prepared to lose if they shaft you.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.15 01:31:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sir Substance on 15/02/2009 01:31:13 double post
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.15 01:58:00 -
[14]
Existing Obstacles to Scamming:
1- all of that warning stuff potential victims get (more than enough already IMO) 2- inability to make courier contracts for PLEX 3- searchable contracts (you should never find something you don't want) 4- contracts now display "1x zydrine" instead of "zydrine"
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Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.15 02:36:00 -
[15]
tl;dr i ignored the fifty warning signs of a scam and got scammed. help plz
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.15 02:40:00 -
[16]
^^ what the above poster said.
Apoctasy > unfortunately, Concord does not reimburse citizens for their own stupidity
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EthanPow
Caldari Drakeal Inc. Drakeal Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.15 03:15:00 -
[17]
Edited by: EthanPow on 15/02/2009 03:17:22 well overall this is what I am suggesting
victims -30 day period of fraud protection though normal payments without contract -gives new players and out witted players a chance to get back what they should be been refunded -Scammed too much that Concord notices can force alliance to be effected to access highsec, therefore makes scammers to make alt corporations and act form a different view. so Scamming has risk, trying it less often means less risk, but more risk more reward if done right -If Victim plays it right the Scammer's funds and assets can be sold for legal Fees etc. so theres that risk. therefore, so the scammer (or his/her Corporation) can be scammed in the Reverse. -maybe "Gellante Legal" etc. skill books, though I don't think it should go that far.
Scammers -using free form contracts to fool victims and can not be broken if its clearly stated lawyer printed junk and etc. -make it harder for recruitment scams to happen, but still can happen if done with your x's and 0's crossed -making spying and thieving more complex when Breaking it, but still it can still happen if done right -Contract Scamming is not effected, all info is Display so you the person must look at it first. -anything below 250mil worth in assets are not protected by fraud protection.
basically saying make it more Rewarding when you plan it out very nicely, having more people use free form to support the victims and the scammers but you have to be good at it, know what to look for. Breaching out new job choices so motivating to scamming and anti-scamming therefore you can still protect yourself and still be screwed over. What ever you do, DO NOT, for love of god, do not use that smartbomb |
Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.02.15 04:27:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Kalia Masaer on 15/02/2009 04:32:02 The main issue with scamming is there are no consiquences since almost all of it is done by alts. Change the user interface to make scamming a little more difficult, only subtle changes are needed. It might also be fun to be able to track down who the alts running the scams are giving money to then there could be actual consiquences to it. Might see some wars break out and it would probably be good for the game.
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Sareth Drangua
Gallente M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.15 04:54:00 -
[19]
theres is no issue with this.
if somone is scammed and leaves the game because of their own dumb mistakes then they are welcome to emoquit
corp thefts keep the economy stable and provide many political aspects to the game.
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PrimaryIsYou
BACKUPLEGION
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Posted - 2009.02.15 06:12:00 -
[20]
Make posting harder instead.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.15 07:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sareth Drangua theres is no issue with this.
if somone is scammed and leaves the game because of their own dumb mistakes then they are welcome to emoquit
corp thefts keep the economy stable and provide many political aspects to the game.
/thread
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Kitsumi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.15 10:58:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Kitsumi on 15/02/2009 10:58:23
Originally by: Sir Substance this is precicely the behavoir CCP is trying to engourage.
Then they need to explain some serious flaws in their design.
Quote: (snip first part of Wikipedia cite) "Such dangers are an inherent part of Eve Online's virtual economy and thus are purposely not dealt with by the developers.[69] Players are expected to make financial decisions based (among other factors) on the possibility of other players' financial malpractice, much like in real-life economics."
people will shaft you. eve is like life in this respect. keep an eye on your stuff, and trust people only as far as you would be prepared to lose if they shaft you.
And I have rebutted this, twice, and so far, not one answer. As someone mentioned before, alts are the problem.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=957058&page=2#39
Until that is resolved there is simply no excuse, not from anyone here, nor from CCP, that scamming remain in its current form. Until there are consequences for scamming it will remain a broken mechanic and should be modified since the altneratives are far worse to contemplate.
Scars flown proud! |
Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.15 15:04:00 -
[23]
awwww, did that navy raven you bought turn out to be a regular raven?
It's okay, emoraging about ignoring the 51 warning signs of a scam is natural :console:
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testalus rima
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Posted - 2009.02.15 21:17:00 -
[24]
i love this anti scam threads...afterwards my block list always grows.
hangars for frighters asset and map |
Ildord
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Posted - 2009.02.15 21:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kitsumi
And I have rebutted this, twice, and so far, not one answer. As someone mentioned before, alts are the problem.
Not much to quote on. It's nearly impossible to fall into any of the scams unless if you're completely brain dead. Scam them back some other time and place and learn to play.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.15 21:42:00 -
[26]
Use the top secret anti-scamming tool called a brain.
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Amy Mouse
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: EthanPow after doing a few tests, and 1.2 billion isk, scaming is way too common in eve-online. and needs to be made in a way that a Corporation or alliance can reclaim stolen isk if not have concord have a negative againist the alliance or corporation that the scam has happened.
Problem: it only takes a smooth talker, though there are way too many and too far of scamers in eve, *cough* Goons *cough* which leaves the problem that there hardly any real "new" players, so pretty much they leave form the scam and players ask "can I have your stuff"
Suggestion: not to get rid of scamming, just make it harder to do so. also make people be more involved with free form contracts, like any TOS, if it clearly states whats going on, the victim cannot reclaim the isk, and possible concord will act against it.
so any scam that doesn't inclued a contract that has 250mil or more in payment, and if reported within a month time the money could be reclaimed and a small negative can be placed againist the alliance. but as long scamming is rare on a corporation or player the standing that has been effected will change back to normal.
so when a alliance scams too much within a 30 day period, concord can have the "alliance" drop their standings to -10 as well have a bounty on the alliance (shared with each pilot. and randomized) pilots of that alliance can not claim the bounties on each other, and makes them LARGER targets for bounty hunters.
another reason is the 'police' have control of the flow of money in a way, scamming is a criminal offense and should be treated as such
Effect: no large alliance don't take chances with scamming with a smooth voice, they need the legal documentation to back it up. so it has to clearly state it, if someone is stupid enough to go for it then nothing bad happens to the alliance or corporation.
this doesn't effect when the deal been completed if the deal did go though and player still complains that he or she was scammed would make the police take actions against that pilot.
Extra Note: Real life has scammers as well, not many scams get away so easy. so make it harder so it would make eve better.
I bet many players will agree scams happen TOO much within eve therefore I suggest this so it takes more effort to fool someone. this will make scammers make their own small corps and scam with contracts. therefore if you read it or accept it, there is no help for the scammed if they completely fall into the trap. also this suggestion only effects scams that take your money or your ships/equipment (they agreed to return them to you and don't), if they bring you out to lowsec and ransom you form the money your worth then that shouldn't take effect then, your to blame.
Sounds like someone didn't use an e-lawyer! You should really protect your self by hiring an average joe to read over your things, who knows how much you will get scammed without it!
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:44:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 16/02/2009 01:45:45
Originally by: Kalia Masaer Edited by: Kalia Masaer on 15/02/2009 04:32:02 The main issue with scamming is there are no consiquences since almost all of it is done by alts.
this
However the sad fact is even if an alliance gets known for their scamming and backstabbing (goons) most of eve will do nothing about it.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Kitsumi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 07:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Johli awwww, did that navy raven you bought turn out to be a regular raven?
It's okay, emoraging about ignoring the 51 warning signs of a scam is natural :console:
Nope, never been scammed. Just happen to be able to put forth rational arguments instead of ad hominem attacks. If you had actually read the link I posted you would see in the first paragraph that I have no issues with scamming. Keep up or keep out.
Scars flown proud! |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 08:16:00 -
[30]
Did the OP try to apply for the goons? ^_^
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