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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:03:00 -
[1]
No drone skills?! EPIC FAIL!!! Why do all of the characters start with the exact same skills, except for the faction frigate and gunnery skills? The Gallente are the drone kings, what's with this? We might as well be able to choose what faction cruiser we want and the types of weapons we wanna use.
Any thoughts?
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:21:00 -
[2]
Looks like race matters no more. This and every char with the same attributes makes the races and bloodlines pointless.
EVE Knowledge |
Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:28:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Matt G on 15/02/2009 22:28:43 Yep. Let's just get portraits, how's that sound? BOO YAH! Heck, let us upload our own pics! FOR FREE!
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CCP Casqade
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:17:00 -
[4]
Quote: No drone skills?! EPIC FAIL!!! Why do all of the characters start with the exact same skills, except for the faction frigate and gunnery skills?
I don't believe that skills to a new player mean much at all. I believe it makes more sense for the new player to choose what they like to do and then reward the player with skills in that field or guide them how to become better, rather than giving them a bit of everything. The Imicus is the only frigate that has a drone bonus (Drone range, which is not the most useful bonus for a new player) and all races have frigates that are capable of fielding drones.
What do you think? Can you please explain why you this is a bad idea?
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: CCP Casqade The Imicus is the only frigate that has a drone bonus (Drone range, which is not the most useful bonus for a new player) and all races have frigates that are capable of fielding drones.
I agree, the Imicus is in fact the worst ship. And to go along with this theme of it being horrible, the Helios should be returned to its former glory.
PS. I love my 500K SP in Drones which I never use.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Casqade
Quote: No drone skills?! EPIC FAIL!!! Why do all of the characters start with the exact same skills, except for the faction frigate and gunnery skills?
I don't believe that skills to a new player mean much at all. I believe it makes more sense for the new player to choose what they like to do and then reward the player with skills in that field or guide them how to become better, rather than giving them a bit of everything. The Imicus is the only frigate that has a drone bonus (Drone range, which is not the most useful bonus for a new player) and all races have frigates that are capable of fielding drones.
What do you think? Can you please explain why you this is a bad idea?
CCP Casquade, okay, I kind of see your point there. I planned on starting 100% over when the patch comes out, except my isk, and making a more specialized character. My point, tho, is that the Gallente are no longer the "DRONE KINGS!". My point is, each race started with specialized skills to help them. Gallente had drones, Caldari had missile skills, Minmatar...didn't care about them cause they fly buckets of bolts so IDK, and same with Amarr. Anybody can now start with any character, in a matter of hours have Gallente Frig to where Gallente start now, and work on drone skills. My point to this is that there are no superior races anymore because everything is now evened out amongst them all. I always started Gallente because of the fact I could use drones right off the bat, 5 of them. Now, I just started a Caldari character, got my +3's, training the learning skills to 3, Drones to 3 and Gallente Frigate to 3. No point in the races or bloodlines now because I can just spend a few hours and be whatever I want. They are just pictures now.
**Note: Most other ideas are awesome, but this one is not. You guys have done a great job so far.**
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:41:00 -
[7]
So how is that different from the past? I started as a Gallente character, and almost immediatly started training into Caldari ships and missiles.
The only difference is I had a ton of skills from my character that are useless and I was never gonna use.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:44:00 -
[8]
Okay, WHY OH WHY, if I'm Gallente and NEVER going to use Missiles, do I start with fricken Missile skills?!
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:45:00 -
[9]
Some Gallente ships have missile launchers on them?
I think you're missing an integral fact here. The race you start off in Eve has no bearing on what ships you fly.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:49:00 -
[10]
I'm not missing that point. No, Gallente don't use missile ships, they use drone boats (dominix) and hybrid weapons. The only time I actually used a missile with my gallente character was when I jumped in a strategic cruiser and found I had 1 slot. This is why I started a caldari character because I don't have to worry about starting with drones on Gallente cause I don't. Use to start with Drones 5, and 3 other skills in drones. Now, that's gone out the window. Maybe it was too easy for noobs to get up and going, but hey, no drone skills makes it much easier cause they can choose what they wanna do. See my point? It doesn't matter what race you start off with anymore, they are all the same except the name and the look. Why are there 4 races now?
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.15 23:57:00 -
[11]
Gallente ships that have at least one missile launcher:
Tristan Enyo Nemesis Hyperion Megathron Celestis Ares Eris Arazu Lachesis
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:02:00 -
[12]
So I stand corrected about the missile points, but there's only 1.
You are missing my point tho! I'll spell it nice and clear.
GALLENTE ARE NO LONGER DRONE KINGS. ANYBODY CAN BE A DRONE KING IN A MATTER OF HOURS. GALLENTE ARE NOW POINTLESS.
Caps Lock was not to be yelling, but to emphasize my fricken point because nobody is understanding. I can now start off with any character and train the drone skills. So with that being said, Gallente are now the same as Amarr, Caldari and Minmatar because they all have the SAME starting skills.
What is the point now in having separate races?
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Shirley Serious
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Matt G What is the point now in having separate races?
roleplay.
Different character portrait options.
Yes. Yes, I am. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 16/02/2009 00:09:19 I'll try this once more, since you only seem to be listening to what you want to hear.
Starting off with 500K and Drones V hardly makes anyone a "Drone king" Anyone could've trained these skills at any time in the past, so it would've taken a few days. So I suppose you would've had an edge in drones over a two day newbie.
Anyone. One race never performed better than another in anything. They simply started with some more skills that anyone could train.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:10:00 -
[15]
This is a symptom of the same problem as the attribute redistribution. What does it matter now if you start Amarr, or caldari or whatever. You essentially have the exact same ability to do anything. We don't want that. The races are intinsically different, each have their different histories, their own differnet technology, the racial flavor! By doing this you may as well just remove all the story line and make everyone one race, with these 4 different races technology to choose from. Each of the characters are supposed to be graduates from one acadamy, belonging to one race, where they learn the skills to fly the ships of their own race.
If you make everything the same then you remove part of what makes the game interesting, the story line and the flair. What is the point in having an Amarr character has naff all skills for Amarrian ships. The game already favours Caldari ships as it is(but thats a whole other debate) so why take away any incentive new people have to train amarr, gallente or minmatar? Why have any different races and bloodlines at all if everyone is just going to be the same?
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Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:12:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Matt G on 16/02/2009 00:13:09
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin This is a symptom of the same problem as the attribute redistribution. What does it matter now if you start Amarr, or caldari or whatever. You essentially have the exact same ability to do anything. We don't want that. The races are intinsically different, each have their different histories, their own differnet technology, the racial flavor! By doing this you may as well just remove all the story line and make everyone one race, with these 4 different races technology to choose from. Each of the characters are supposed to be graduates from one acadamy, belonging to one race, where they learn the skills to fly the ships of their own race.
If you make everything the same then you remove part of what makes the game interesting, the story line and the flair. What is the point in having an Amarr character has naff all skills for Amarrian ships. The game already favours Caldari ships as it is(but thats a whole other debate) so why take away any incentive new people have to train amarr, gallente or minmatar? Why have any different races and bloodlines at all if everyone is just going to be the same?
Somebody understands the point that I am trying to get across. Thank you, Ikar.
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Icarus Flame
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:30:00 -
[17]
The Anarchyt is right, of course. The Gallente as a starting race have NEVER been "the drone kings," because it is easy as hell for anyone to train Drones V. This isn't a NEW PROBLEM, because it was always this way. Why start whining about it now?
As for race being irrelevant, I disagree. The vast majority of new players start training the ships and weapons of their race from the get-go. Obviously there are some exceptions - The Anarchyt being one. I know somebody who went exactly the other way. Newbies start out in their respective regions, where the markets and rats are more conducive to their skills. The beauty of this game is that you can do whatever you want, and this has always been the case. The new patch is making that easier.
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:32:00 -
[18]
Starting skills really make no difference later on.
My portrait is Caldari, I fly primarily Gallente ships, back at the beginning I flew a lot of Amarr frigates, and a cruiser for a bit.
Being concerned with how your portrait is linked to your abilities shows a lack of understanding in what EVE is. Some people care about the conflicts between empires, but many don't, and fly and use tech from whoever they prefer.
Quote: We might as well be able to choose what faction cruiser we want and the types of weapons we wanna use.
Um... You can.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Xailia Starting skills really make no difference later on.
My portrait is Caldari, I fly primarily Gallente ships, back at the beginning I flew a lot of Amarr frigates, and a cruiser for a bit.
Being concerned with how your portrait is linked to your abilities shows a lack of understanding in what EVE is. Some people care about the conflicts between empires, but many don't, and fly and use tech from whoever they prefer.
Quote: We might as well be able to choose what faction cruiser we want and the types of weapons we wanna use.
Um... You can.
You are kind of missing something here, Xailia. What I am trying to say is that there is no point to having different races. They are all the same now. Noobs don't care about empire conflicts. It's an equal opportunity world now. Welcome to 2009.
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Dochas
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:36:00 -
[20]
I understand that this is a hard concept for someone with 1 million sp to grasp but the initial 800k sp you start with DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL. Do you reallize how many Caldari are Caldari just for the 3 charisma, with no intention to ever train caldari ships? With good learning/implants you can hit 17-19 million sp a year, so how does 800k influence that at all? Just because Amarr doesn't start with Drones to 5 doesn't mean they won't instantly train it. Just because the Caldari character starts with frig 3 doesn't mean I have to stay with Caldari frigs when I really want to fly Gallente frigs.
Previously the only time the starting 800k really mattered was if you were making a low sp specialized alt. Pick the starting skills to get you there fastest. For any long term character starting skills didn't really matter, attributes did. Now we can pick our attributes so people are free to use character selection to pick their character based on what race they WANT to be not what race has the attributes they need.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Icarus Flame As for race being irrelevant, I disagree. The vast majority of new players start training the ships and weapons of their race from the get-go. Obviously there are some exceptions - The Anarchyt being one. I know somebody who went exactly the other way. Newbies start out in their respective regions, where the markets and rats are more conducive to their skills. The beauty of this game is that you can do whatever you want, and this has always been the case. The new patch is making that easier.
But, they train their races skills because that is what they have been nudged into. Not necessarily because they want to play that way, or know any better at the time. I think that's the other important point.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Matt G
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:40:00 -
[22]
I'm just going to say the crap with this topic. People are obviously mistaking what I am trying to say. I'm tired of trying to explain myself. There are no more differences between the races now other than the portrait. I used to think that Gallente were specialized for drones, but now this is out the window. Caldari used to be specialized for missiles, that's also out the window.
Can we please get a billion dollar bail out on EVE, too? I mean, if it's really getting to the point where everybody's equal.
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:42:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Xailia on 16/02/2009 00:43:44
Originally by: Matt G You are kind of missing something here, Xailia. What I am trying to say is that there is no point to having different races. They are all the same now. Noobs don't care about empire conflicts. It's an equal opportunity world now. Welcome to 2009.
Yes, they don't matter. They never have. But for storyline/roleplay the ability to select a race is always important.
Races still matter when it comes to running corporations with a roleplaying attitude.
But races have never really mattered if you don't want them to matter, and these changes to character creation are more of a fix to bring that in line.
Originally by: Matt G I'm just going to say the crap with this topic. People are obviously mistaking what I am trying to say. I'm tired of trying to explain myself. There are no more differences between the races now other than the portrait. I used to think that Gallente were specialized for drones, but now this is out the window. Caldari used to be specialized for missiles, that's also out the window.
Races have NEVER had specialization. It was only for storyline purposes and ship bonuses/fittings that those traits were assigned. Who the pilot is in the pod makes no difference.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:46:00 -
[24]
I know certificates are supposed to help out with enhancing player understanding of skills but maybe you should toss up some tutorials of 'how do I improve ...?"
Like how do I improve my ability to market? Goto though the tutorial and it breaks down the market the skills that may be required and some thoght put on the players side on finding profits.
Its a problem Im seeing with alot of newer charcters these days they still dont know what skills they need to do the things they want to do. =============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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QuantumX
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:47:00 -
[25]
You pick a race on how you want to LOOK....
Your Train for WHAT you want to be in eve...
Starting attributes mean nothing....
========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
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Tankanaka
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:47:00 -
[26]
exaclty what Xailia said. It's very important for RP.
...additionally when people state that "Gallente are drone kings" they are referring to their ships -something any race can learn to pilot. It's been like that since day 1.
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Shirley Serious
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:47:00 -
[27]
You could only really say Gallente were drone specialists if drone skills all had Charisma as primary.
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Matt G
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:53:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Matt G on 16/02/2009 00:55:08 You all pull a rough discussion.
Okay, let's rephrase this now that all of this info is on the table.
Why are there 4 different races? They're all equal and have been since day 1.
Why do you start us off with gunnery and missile and frigate skills, if we aren't going to train our own race's ship skills? I mean, why don't you just let us choose the race we want to fly when we make the character?
Example: Character: Caldari Ship Skill: Gallente With that...I start with my Caldari character, and I start with Gallente Frig 2. Troubleshoot my mind if I sound stupid. |
Tankanaka
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:58:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tankanaka on 16/02/2009 00:59:21 well if your not even starting with your racial ships then I agree that's the stupidest thing yet. It should be obvious that if you select a gallente character you would want to start out with it's racial frigate skill. all that does is getting new players cross training from the start which is a very bad thing.
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Matt G
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 00:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tankanaka well if your not even starting with your racial ships then I agree that's the stupidest thing yet. It should be obvious that if you select a gallente character you would want to start out with it's racial frigate skill.
But it's just a portrait... Troubleshoot my mind if I sound stupid. |
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:01:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Xailia on 16/02/2009 01:05:18
There are 4 races to give diversity to the ships of EVE, also to provide 4 distinct cultures.
You start with your racial ship/gunnery skills mostly because you went to a school in your empire. (Choosing where you went to school is something I would love to see, hard to have a mixed Gallente/Caldari background when facial blending and choosing a school isn't possible; it is frustrating)
But what race you began your life as can still apply in your capsuleer life. There are many single race RP-oriented corporations.
With the emancipation of Minmatar from the Amarr empire, it would make even more sense to be able to have mixed bloodlines and the ability to choose your home space at character creation. I'm sure many of the freed slaves have mixed Amarr/Minmatar backgrounds and wind up going to school in Gallente space.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Hereon Herinnger
Gallente Nolra Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:06:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Xailia
There are 4 races to give diversity to the ships of EVE, also to provide 4 distinct cultures.
This. You people assume everyone plays the game for the sole purpose of maximizing their attributes and skills. Some of us like to have fun . |
Anneka Tong
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:19:00 -
[33]
There's a whole lot of bloodline and backgrounds that you hardly ever meet ingame, except for highly specialised alt characters, because the attributes mean so much.
Akita T's guide to character creation That pretty much says Achura are the best general purpose character, so what then is the point of the other race/bloodlines ?
If you want to fly Gallente ships, you're better off being an Achuran than being a Gallente.
I like genetic engineering Past projects: The Radioactive Sheep Current project: Cybercow |
Neth'Rae
Gallente Decorum Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:23:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Neth''Rae on 16/02/2009 01:26:41 Edited by: Neth''Rae on 16/02/2009 01:25:09
Originally by: Matt G I planned on starting 100% over when the patch comes out, except my isk, and making a more specialized character.
Why would you want to start over? (btw, it's not starting over 100% if you keep your isk :P) Especially now in Apocrypha when you can re-assign your stats. And you also start with less SP, so you might aswell start over before Apocrypha?
Originally by: Matt G No point in the races or bloodlines now because I can just spend a few hours and be whatever I want. They are just pictures now.
Yeah, that's how it should have been from the start, be whatever race you want to be and learn whatever skills you want to learn.
I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here! |
X3k5
The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.16 02:02:00 -
[35]
Edited by: X3k5 on 16/02/2009 02:03:46 Ok News Flash for Matt G and company -
The four different races have different ships???????????????
Starting without drone skills as Gallente doesnt make Ishtar a droneless ship and as such Gallente remain "Drone Kings". The "incentive" to train different races is in the ships, not in the few skills that you start with.
Its the ships that really DEFINE races in EvE. Because any race character can crosstrain. That hasnt just happened, it has always been so in this game. The flexibility is the beauty of this game.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.02.16 02:23:00 -
[36]
I actually get what the OP is saying.
The fact that all 4 races are still human, means that they're basically the same.
The variety came from the society of each race.
The Caldari were militaristic, favoring order and discipline. That's why their ships look like LEGOs, with very rigid lines and angles.
The Minmatar were downtrodden slaves attempting to recover themselves by setting out into space. That's why their ships look like they were made from scraps left behind when their oppressors got up and left.
The often quoted example of Gallente "Kings of Drones" comes from the fact while every race -can- use drones, the Gallente ships are focused on them. Their society is focused on a life of luxury, and having drones to do all the work for you seems very luxurious.
The underlying point of this thread... is that removing social focus from each race ultimately reduces everyone down to "human" and nothing more. And while Eve is a fascinating endeavor exploring the psyche of its players... It's also a game.
Every other MMO and tabletop game provides racial bonuses and penalties. And while I don't think we need some sort of magic bond between an Amarr pilot and an Amarr ship... it would stand to reason that someone raised in a culture would be better with that cultures toys. That doesn't mean that a Caldari couldn't learn how to fly an Amarr ship just as well, if not better. But it does mean that a Caldari would have to go out of their way to learn.
We all start with a few skills we probably won't use. That's called a "well rounded education". And it's the same reason you have to take English Lit and Biology, even when you major in Computer Science.
So... Each race having their own society, and a focus for each society, is what defines the differences between them. And if each society is blended together from the start, with no variety, then there isn't any reason to leave the 4 races separate. Trying to justify it as "roleplay" is a failed example from the start. No one pays attention to roleplay anymore. Just like mission briefings, when most people only read enough to see who they're facing, and where. CCP had to go out of their way and make Factional Warfare to try and encourage racial preference again. And even then... you could side with whoever you wanted. So there was no motivation to be a Gallente fighting for the Gallente. You fought for whoever you chose.
If they want to make character creation a cookie cutter process, and make each race identical to the next, then they are taking quite a lot away from the game. --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Matt G
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 02:43:00 -
[37]
Holy cow already, so all you guys are saying the same thing over and over again. Enough of this stupid convo already. I guess EVE was not all in-depth to begin with. Troubleshoot my mind if I sound stupid. |
Abene Placito
Black Legion Command Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 03:14:00 -
[38]
Dude, it's not that no one gets what you're saying, it's just that you have no idea what you're talking about.
As said before, the initial 800k SP means absolutely nothing.
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Xam Nesse
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Posted - 2009.02.16 03:29:00 -
[39]
OK, perhaps a slightly different approach to the Races. Each race begins with a slightly different focus but Eve allows the players to choose what training paths they desire.
This is all very good however, a players race does seem to mean less and less as the skill points increase. So, how about Racial Bonus' for each of the races. Gallente get +5% Drone and Hybrid damage when flying a Gallente ship. Caldari get +5% Missile damage when flying a Caldari ship. etc ...
Just an idea that gives a small bonus to a character that trains and stays in his/her race's technologies.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.02.16 03:34:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Terianna Eri on 16/02/2009 03:35:00 On topic, I went to make a new character the other day on Sisi.
The choices of race/bloodline/specialization/career (all those things which used to determine attributes and starting skills)... There's no indication what picking one over another actually means. It seems like a totally pointless and arbitrary choice.
So... what's the point of even having them?
Either the choice is totally arbitrary, in which case why not do away with them entirely, or give us back an indication what choosing one over another actually does.
EDIT: The old character creation might have been a little overwhelming with the amount of data it gave the player, but the new one has the player making exactly the same choices and this time, totally and utterly devoid of context. It's terrible. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Matt G
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 03:42:00 -
[41]
Well, I think CCP paid attention to what I was trying to say, and now Missile Launcher Op skills are not in my selection. Thank you, CCP! Now if there was only a button that said "Forget Skill"... Troubleshoot my mind if I sound stupid. |
shuckstar
Gallente Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2009.02.16 04:08:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Shirley Serious
Originally by: Matt G What is the point now in having separate races?
roleplay.
Different character portrait options.
QFT
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 04:33:00 -
[43]
I agree with casquade.
New character skills really dont matter.
Hell my character is gallente because I liked gallente how they were democratic and such.
Truly... if this 55,000 sp char deal is real. That's great. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Taylor timenenzi
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Posted - 2009.02.16 04:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Matt G Holy cow already, so all you guys are saying the same thing over and over again. Enough of this stupid convo already. I guess EVE was not all in-depth to begin with.
No people get what your saying they just dont agree with you. And yes you have been ranting and saying the very same thing. You should go learn how to be in a grown up conversation where there are disenting opnions and deal with it.
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Matt G
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.16 04:46:00 -
[45]
Okay, mom. I really don't think there's much else to discuss on this topic. Everybody checking this out AFTER the conversation has been dead for a while just drag it on. Read and weep. Troubleshoot my mind if I sound stupid. |
Terra Mikael
SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2009.02.16 05:29:00 -
[46]
I think what he's trying to say is that these are all cookie cutter characters. Which are nice for new players, but for more advanced players, we would like to build it from the ground up.
Perhaps add an "advanced" character creation tab? ________________________________
Originally by: Korovyov You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
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Anne Archer
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Posted - 2009.02.16 08:11:00 -
[47]
To be honest, why would a new player develop any special interest at the onset in a character that comes out of a completely generic cookie cutter mold at the very beginning.
I think a good game/MMO should be almost like a book where a beginning character can spark your interest in some small way that will make you want grow and develop your character. I beleive it sets some very poor expectations at the beginning of a new game for a player if there is nothing different about the races/characer at the onset. If a game has been around for years and it's all the same to start, What's the rest of it going to be like?
Playing ANY MMO you want to feel like you can develop a character that is at least in some way's different from everyone else's character. How do you peak the interest of a new player who wants to develop a character who's primary interest may lie in 'Exploration' and can develop that extra something by reading about the different races and their histories. What they learn from their research can draw them further into the character. This makes the game more immersive and fun for them if there is an actuall difference in the races/attributes that have developed from the history they were to have spawned from. EVE has a very interesting background story. Why not use it instead of throwing it away.
I think about my Caldari, Alchura research alt and would think she's no big deal starting out with the same generic skills that everyone else has.
With the nerfing of my missile specialization skills in QR for one of my alts and so far completely throwing out my exploration skills in Apocrypha, so that any completely new character has almost the same ability in locating or scanning down a complex in same time or with the sam chance that I have after months of training to accomplish is completely demoralizing. (I haven't heard how my current Eploration characters maxed skills are being changed yet,-still trying to be hopeful) I'm really starting to feel like what's the point of specializing in anything when it can be taken away at a whim by the developers.
I am trying to stay optimistic about Apocrypha but am quickly losing hope. I've seen literally hundreds of pages posted on different aspects of the game from the community during QR and the latest update PLEADING with the developers to please spend more time reviewing the intended changes and listen to their feedback. But with much dismay these pleas, seem to be following on deaf or indifferent ears.
Here's hoping this isn't just one more plea that will be ignored. Please help us keep our characters unique and make them seem like they are worth something or in some small way different. Please help to keep the story interesting.
I apologize for the long diatribe.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.02.16 10:45:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 16/02/2009 10:46:27
Originally by: Anne Archer I think a good game/MMO should be almost like a book where a beginning character can spark your interest in some small way that will make you want grow and develop your character. I beleive it sets some very poor expectations at the beginning of a new game for a player if there is nothing different about the races/characer at the onset. If a game has been around for years and it's all the same to start, What's the rest of it going to be like?
Nicely put, and I also agree with what Marcus wrote earlier.
To me the distinction between the races skills isn't so critical, it perhaps does send the right message that you can train anything.
However, with the skill/attribute distinction gone, it becomes much more important that you can distinguish between the races and make an informed choice as to why you'd want to be Amarr True Amarrian, or Caldari Achura, or Minmatar Brutor.
EVE lacks any storytelling ability as it stands. We're expected to guess and look up the background story outside of the game - I still meet players today who say 'there's a backstory? Damn why didn't anyone tell me?' because they focus on the game, not the web-site.
The new player experience could go a long way to provide at least hints as to the style of society you come from, the reasons your race has a dislike for two of the others, why Gallente ships tend to use drones, why we're in pods, and others of the basics of EVE that get asked time and time again.
After that new player experience, I don't know. I'd like to see epic storyline missions that actually provide some of the background story, so that you don't have to spend a day out of game reading Ruthless to get some of the backstory, but it's strictly a separate topic worthy of a separate thread.
As an aside, look at Factional Warfare - as it stands, as a new player, how would you know who to fight for, and why? ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.02.16 10:45:00 -
[49]
omg, why is it so hard to understand?
look.. we are living in the age of MMO's! Long gone are the days when people load an mmo, roll a character that sounds good and continue on their own individual merry way...
People READ UP about mmo's now, people ask questions about "whats best".... There will be a cookie cutter character path that everyone will copy. And you have LOST the mix of characters you have now and be breeding clones.
I completely agree with OP, There needs to be SOME difference between races just as there are vast differences in education with races on earth!
You go to school to learn a specific subject or group of subjects, but in eve you go to school and every pilot comes out of whatever school or background they come from and THEY ARE ALL IDENTICAL??? - Seriously, I would like to know why CCP thinks we should all be the same. There simply MUST be differences between races, I just dont get it. Please, someone from CCP explain it!
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Flinchey
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.16 10:49:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Matt G I'm not missing that point. No, Gallente don't use missile ships, they use drone boats (dominix) and hybrid weapons. The only time I actually used a missile with my gallente character was when I jumped in a strategic cruiser and found I had 1 slot. This is why I started a caldari character because I don't have to worry about starting with drones on Gallente cause I don't. Use to start with Drones 5, and 3 other skills in drones. Now, that's gone out the window. Maybe it was too easy for noobs to get up and going, but hey, no drone skills makes it much easier cause they can choose what they wanna do. See my point? It doesn't matter what race you start off with anymore, they are all the same except the name and the look. Why are there 4 races now?
maybe.... you know... you missed the starting movie
and the tons of chronicles
and eve novels
but.... eve has a storyline? the races.. kinda.. need to exist irregardless of skill differences? including major gameplay mechanics like FW and standings.
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Ha'Uler
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.16 10:54:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Flinchey
Originally by: Matt G I'm not missing that point. No, Gallente don't use missile ships, they use drone boats (dominix) and hybrid weapons. The only time I actually used a missile with my gallente character was when I jumped in a strategic cruiser and found I had 1 slot. This is why I started a caldari character because I don't have to worry about starting with drones on Gallente cause I don't. Use to start with Drones 5, and 3 other skills in drones. Now, that's gone out the window. Maybe it was too easy for noobs to get up and going, but hey, no drone skills makes it much easier cause they can choose what they wanna do. See my point? It doesn't matter what race you start off with anymore, they are all the same except the name and the look. Why are there 4 races now?
maybe.... you know... you missed the starting movie
and the tons of chronicles
and eve novels
but.... eve has a storyline? the races.. kinda.. need to exist irregardless of skill differences? including major gameplay mechanics like FW and standings.
Factional warfare is about as relevant to the eve universeas the impact of can stealing on veldspar prices.
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Haladora
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:05:00 -
[52]
I get the whole idea behind this change but I think they are going about it the wrong way. I agree that noobs shouldn't choose stats and stuff as first thing when starting a char, that's stupid since they got no clue what it will mean for them in game.
My idea is this: give new players (first char on an account) this change then instead of 200% training speed just let them choose stats, bloodline, skills, etc after the tutorial or something similar. This way they get to learn first then choose. Also means us creating alts aren't effected.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:13:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ha'Uler Factional warfare is about as relevant to the eve universe as the impact of can stealing on veldspar prices.
So is the fight between Goonswarm and Bob if you're not involved in it - that doesn't make it less fun or relevant to those involved. At least factional warfare has a well-written story to it - the public image of the Goons and Bob is two powerhouses fighting for the hell of it. Fun, sure, but not very deep.
I don't mean to sound critical, really, but do try and understand some people want a backstory and to have fun with that, rather than just shoot people for lulz. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Kayscha
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:16:00 -
[54]
Great. Another remnant of game world history and individual background is going to be demolished to make way for a generic sandbox of arbitrariness.
In real life, diversity is a two-edged thing. It allows for variety, identity and individuality as much as for, sadly, discrimination and conflict.
In a game, however, conflict is desired and discrimination not really much of an issue. Only the good parts of diversity remain. Since races are a good way to introduce tangible diversity in this game of make-believe, it is ok to be "racist" and give players a choice between preset advantages and disadvantages.
Choice needs to have consequence, for while consequence may be painful, it offers meaning and a source of satisfaction. There are very few choices in EVE that really have any serious consequences, so leave us this one.
Better yet, let us make further informed choices by choosing social backgrounds and educations at chargen (Megatraveller, anyone?).
Thanks.
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MJ Maverick
IronPig Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:28:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Matt G My point is, each race started with specialized skills to help them. Gallente had drones, Caldari had missile skills, Minmatar...didn't care about them cause they fly buckets of bolts so IDK, and same with Amarr.
Rofl QFT!
To be honest I think Gallente should DEFINITELY have a head start in drone skills. Amarr a head start in tanking skills, Minmatar a head start in navigation skills and Caldari; missiles.
Although it makes a nice sentence, making all the races equal on start is a bad idea! It will just ultimately confused players on what ships to train and what belongs to what race... If they don't see an advantage on training their own race then they will be on frigates and cruisers forever... They will be like "try this frigate, no now this one. Oh I have to train another frigate skill for this one?" They will spend more time messing around in circles on frigates than is needed to get a battleship...
Let's face it, the best way to drag in a new player is to show them the toys they get to play with later. Even more so, let them sample what their race can do and what it's good at.
--------------------
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Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:32:00 -
[56]
I dont see your point cause atm everybody is achura. With this change there probably wont be 50% Achura chars in EvE.
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Candily
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:34:00 -
[57]
Nice, now instead of portrait, can we have the "Eve Hard Mode" written all over Minmatar? Pretty pls?
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Aynen
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:35:00 -
[58]
Way I see it, making race not matter anymore and giving people the option to re-spec greatly increases the risk of tons of players using the same 'build', greatly decreasing the diversity of characters out there. I propose a different kind of 're-speccing' since I do understand the need to not let players eternally pay for mistakes they made as a new player.
You can have 3 characters on 1 account, and those 3 characters can be of different race. What if, once every six months, you could transfer all your skillpoints from one of those characters to another, basically swapping them around. You can then keep racial bonusses and perks, while still making it so that players won't have to be stuck to them.
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Jalif
Black Sinisters Freedom of Elbas
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:45:00 -
[59]
With the old movie I knew directly what were the diffrences between the races and they gave you a very good impression of the race (and its RP side of it). At that moment you "felt" already which race you had to choose.
Now with the new system you going after the logic. Democratic! aahh Gallente, Ruthless Militairy? Caldari! - Religous? who the hell chooses that? Minmatar? Slaves? nobody is going to choose that. (this is my opinion tbh)
Thx to that "old" move I felt I had to choose for minmatar. If I would enter the game in 2 months I wouldn't have chosen it & I wouldn't have as much fun because I love the fly minmatar.
Its the feel factor that is left out. I would like to see the introduction of the races back into the game.
However I like the new one too. It gives you the real side of eve. You are basicly immortal & you are a demi-god. I would say, mix the 2 stuff. Make a longer epic-video, with some art instead of ingame shots.
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Corin Nebulon
Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:26:00 -
[60]
Well,
CCP gives new players double training speed, so from the beginning they will be at about 60% training speed of a older char, that has +4 implants.
In order to maximize their sp-gain. New Players have now to train the learning skills to at least 4 and rush to get the money for the advanced learning skills, in order to train them to 4 aswell. After this, they will have a "real" bonus to training time. Maybe soem will train standart learning skills to 5. After this, they will be able to train other skills, like afterburners, frigate 3 etc.
Why giving them a speedboost instead of standart learning skills 5 and advanced learning skills 1? Less frustration for the noob and almost the same effect after 40 days. Just less frustrating.
A small skillset, so people have frig 3, and don't have to depend on civilian modules and can run level 1 missions ...
Of course the loosers are the people who just want a pos gunner alt, or a hauler alt. But then why not include both? Char creation for new players, with learning skills and a few other skills aswell, and a char creation for the older players, where they get a nice boost to their trainingtime but no skills at all?
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:35:00 -
[61]
seriously...? the 800k SP thing was like model trains or *******... meant for the youngest ones and the old ones played with it all the time - putting the gist back into logistics |
Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:46:00 -
[62]
hey i started out with 45k sp... 55k is a big improvement!
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:28:00 -
[63]
did you folks test PAST character creation ? I saw a Dev post somwhere that you start the same and you pick up skills during tutorial, so starting skills realy do not matter, it's your choices during the initial tutorial that do.
if that is true, you cannot skip the tutorial now or you have to buy the skills youreself. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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CCP Gangleri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:33:00 -
[64]
I actually think that the new system encourages roleplay and increases the distinction between the races. No longer will players pick their race and bloodline based on stats but rather looks or backstory preference.
Being able to arrange the stats any way you want will mean that you can make your character the way you want without sacrificing efficiency. And having more freedom to chose skills has the same effect, you can take a new character in any direction you prefer, not by choosing arbitrary bloodlines, specialties and schools but by trying out various paths and then committing to them. ------------------
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Legionos McGuiros
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:36:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Legionos McGuiros on 16/02/2009 13:36:41 If you wnat that to be so CCP Gangleri then it would be nice if you included more backstory in the character creation. When i started eve for teh first time, watched the amazing introduction movie and then read the story on each of the races and bloodlines i knew who i was going to pick. But now if i was a new player i would not have a clue.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:37:00 -
[66]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri I actually think that the new system encourages roleplay and increases the distinction between the races. No longer will players pick their race and bloodline based on stats but rather looks or backstory preference.
Being able to arrange the stats any way you want will mean that you can make your character the way you want without sacrificing efficiency. And having more freedom to chose skills has the same effect, you can take a new character in any direction you prefer, not by choosing arbitrary bloodlines, specialties and schools but by trying out various paths and then committing to them.
but then bloodline/races only modifies your appearance and starting system/corp. nothing else.
I picked my race because I liked missiles and the Caldari backstory. then I picked the bloodline that gave me best attributes for what I wanted to do.
The main issue is that no race has any strength over the other, excep Caldari/Achura being the best above all ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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CCP Gangleri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:46:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Legionos McGuiros Edited by: Legionos McGuiros on 16/02/2009 13:36:41 If you wnat that to be so CCP Gangleri then it would be nice if you included more backstory in the character creation. When i started eve for teh first time, watched the amazing introduction movie and then read the story on each of the races and bloodlines i knew who i was going to pick. But now if i was a new player i would not have a clue.
There is an introduction for each race, I suppose that part of the new player experience isn't on Sisi yet. But I can assure you that there will be backstory introductions for each race. ------------------
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CCP Gangleri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:51:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: CCP Gangleri I actually think that the new system encourages roleplay and increases the distinction between the races. No longer will players pick their race and bloodline based on stats but rather looks or backstory preference.
Being able to arrange the stats any way you want will mean that you can make your character the way you want without sacrificing efficiency. And having more freedom to chose skills has the same effect, you can take a new character in any direction you prefer, not by choosing arbitrary bloodlines, specialties and schools but by trying out various paths and then committing to them.
but then bloodline/races only modifies your appearance and starting system/corp. nothing else.
I picked my race because I liked missiles and the Caldari backstory. then I picked the bloodline that gave me best attributes for what I wanted to do.
The main issue is that no race has any strength over the other, excep Caldari/Achura being the best above all ...
You shouldn't have to pick your race based on what ships or weapons you want to use. You should pick it based on the backstory and appearance, then pick skills that will bring you to what you ultimately want to be. This is what the new system facilitates, as opposed to everyone choosing Achura just for the stats.
New players will now make a character and then get to try out different types of gameplay before choosing their profession, it allows them to mold their stats and skill choices as they go instead of having to re-roll after two weeks to get a better start. ------------------
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:59:00 -
[69]
When do we get mixed bloodlines? *nudge* *nudge*
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Shirley Serious
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:07:00 -
[70]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri And having more freedom to chose skills has the same effect, you can take a new character in any direction you prefer, not by choosing arbitrary bloodlines, specialties and schools but by trying out various paths and then committing to them.
Hmm, since you're here, do you have an answer to this: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=994748 ?
the choice of school corp is something that's useful for RP, in terms of character background, creating your life story and stuff.
Yes. Yes, I am. |
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Legionos McGuiros
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:29:00 -
[71]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Originally by: Legionos McGuiros Edited by: Legionos McGuiros on 16/02/2009 13:36:41 If you wnat that to be so CCP Gangleri then it would be nice if you included more backstory in the character creation. When i started eve for teh first time, watched the amazing introduction movie and then read the story on each of the races and bloodlines i knew who i was going to pick. But now if i was a new player i would not have a clue.
There is an introduction for each race, I suppose that part of the new player experience isn't on Sisi yet. But I can assure you that there will be backstory introductions for each race.
If this is the case and they are as gd or better quality than the original character introduction you have my support :) Thanks for the reply
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Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:11:00 -
[72]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
New players will now make a character and then get to try out different types of gameplay before choosing their profession,
See, this is a huge assumption on your part and I believe its a completely wrong and out-dated theory about new players.
They wont 'try' different gameplay types, your just kidding yourself!
MMO's gamers are not 'new players' they know their stuff! even if they are new to a game, they know the importance of making your character correct the first time! They will read, research, ask questions, do the math... everything! As I did and do and as I see every new player doing in every MMO ive ever played.
Its called min-maxing, making every character's statistics identical out of the box does not encourage diversity, it encourages completely the opposite! - how can you not understand that?
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CCP Gangleri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:18:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Sade Onyx
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
New players will now make a character and then get to try out different types of gameplay before choosing their profession,
See, this is a huge assumption on your part and I believe its a completely wrong and out-dated theory about new players.
They wont 'try' different gameplay types, your just kidding yourself!
MMO's gamers are not 'new players' they know their stuff! even if they are new to a game, they know the importance of making your character correct the first time! They will read, research, ask questions, do the math... everything! As I did and do and as I see every new player doing in every MMO ive ever played.
Its called min-maxing, making every character's statistics identical out of the box does not encourage diversity, it encourages completely the opposite! - how can you not understand that?
Yeah, now you can do your research and min maxing as you play instead of doing a trial char and then re-rolling to fit your preference like before. Or picking the race and bloodline to fit it, which is not what we want, every character should be able to do whatever it wants as long as some certain baselines are in place.
I don't really see how your scenario is in any way impeded by the new character creation process. It merely allows you to min-max any race and bloodline instead of a select few bloodlines being very common for min-maxing reasons. ------------------
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:23:00 -
[74]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
...
I don't really see how your scenario is in any way impeded by the new character creation process. It merely allows you to min-max any race and bloodline instead of a select few bloodlines being very common for min-maxing reasons.
means we don't need the races for other purpose than backstory ...
--- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Kordel Trask
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:25:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri I actually think that the new system encourages roleplay and increases the distinction between the races. No longer will players pick their race and bloodline based on stats but rather looks or backstory preference.
Sorry I just don't agree with this. If I'm a clone like in star wars with the same attributes and skills at the start as every other clone how does this encourage "distinction"?
ALMOST ALL new players won't read any of the race histories because it won't make a difference.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:33:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 16/02/2009 15:34:46
Originally by: Sade Onyx
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
New players will now make a character and then get to try out different types of gameplay before choosing their profession,
See, this is a huge assumption on your part and I believe its a completely wrong and out-dated theory about new players.
They wont 'try' different gameplay types, your just kidding yourself!
MMO's gamers are not 'new players' they know their stuff! even if they are new to a game, they know the importance of making your character correct the first time! They will read, research, ask questions, do the math... everything! As I did and do and as I see every new player doing in every MMO ive ever played.
Making too much assumptions applies to you too. There are players who do the research and know what they want, but that doesn't include every player. I know a few veteran players who avoid reading all those guides exactly because they want to walk their own path and find out things for themselves. There are also a lot of people whining because they made stupid decisions in character creation long ago, so CCP has a legitimate reasons to take that into account. As long as I can skip that tutorial, when I'm making my alt, I don't see what the issue is.
Originally by: Sade Onyx Its called min-maxing, making every character's statistics identical out of the box does not encourage diversity, it encourages completely the opposite! - how can you not understand that?
Well min-maxers that do their research already go for the achura and it is partly to blame why caldari has more players than any other race. The diversity CCP is after is propably more even distribution of players between the races. You can min-max with all races, so there is no need to choose another achura alt. You have the option to look like a normal human being and still min-max your stats. I don't see a problem as long as the racial backstory is clearly displayed in the NPE.
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Suga H
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:51:00 -
[77]
Originally by: CCP Casqade
I don't believe that skills to a new player mean much at all. I believe it makes more sense for the new player to choose what they like to do and then reward the player with skills in that field or guide them how to become better, rather than giving them a bit of everything. ...
What do you think? Can you please explain why you this is a bad idea?
The skills may not mean much to a new player, but they give them an idea of what they can do, and what each race specializes in. You're taking the ability for someone to start along a certain path away from them. They'll start with scratch, and probably end up not realizing that most gallente boats have larger drone bays and drone bonuses. Skills won't mean much to a new player whether they start with them or whether they have to buy them. In fact, skills on the market will mean even less to a person than what they start with. I'm all for having more balanced starting stats, but give each race their skills that they specialize in. Frig and guns isn't a good preview of what they can get into.
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Suga H
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:53:00 -
[78]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
You shouldn't have to pick your race based on what ships or weapons you want to use. You should pick it based on the backstory and appearance, then pick skills that will bring you to what you ultimately want to be. This is what the new system facilitates, as opposed to everyone choosing Achura just for the stats.
You're right about the second part, picking a char based on stats is stupid. But the skills that a race is good at is PART of the back story. It's part of what they are.
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Sunbird Huy
Caldari Wolf Task Force Gemini Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:00:00 -
[79]
Size of drone bays oh God...and while some ships from other factions do have huge drone bays too, it's the galente ships that have the drone bays on each ship, much bigger than counterparts from other factions.
And that little galentean kid in Caldari Prime watches the night sky flaming with wrecks burning down through the atmosphere...in one of them is his father, shot down by Caldari missiles..."I will make You eat Your missiles, wretched Caldari!" ... and he decides he wants to use caldari ships, and kill caldari with missiles...
Get it?
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PAcifisti
Paisti Paisti Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:04:00 -
[80]
Like someone pointed out already : How exactly does the current system of "roll achura or be prepare for lower sp/h gain" promote diversity? This new system if anything will bring more RP reasons to picking race and bloodline. Now you can actually select the race/bloodline that you like the most / fits you most - It wont be a horrible penalty on your attributes. Diversity doesnt mean that some options should suck balls and few others being the right choices no matter what. That's what the current New character creation system is.
For the starting skills... People tend to forget (or havent played for long enough) that we used to start with something like 45k or 90k sp years and years ago. There was a quite major whineflood when ccp raised the starting bar to 900k sp. Oh noes too easy for beginners and altchars. EVE is dieing etc.
Hilarious I dear say. Keep up the good work CCP
You can never understand the Pain |
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88788
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:05:00 -
[81]
Hi I am 88788, I am ordinary and balanced just like everyone else.
I am 88788.
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Aya Sin
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Sade Onyx See, this is a huge assumption on your part and I believe its a completely wrong and out-dated theory about new players. [...] They wont 'try' different gameplay types, your just kidding yourself!
No it's not. My first char was a Gallente miner. I thought I would like that, but really didn't. The char had 4M SP but almost no combat relevant skills and what's worse, way too much charisma (pretty much the maximum possible). I canceled that account and started a missionrunner on a trial account a few months ago. At first just to give it a try, but I kept playing that char since then.
I probably wouldn't have done that had I had the ability to "reset" my attributes.
Originally by: Sade Onyx MMO's gamers are not 'new players' they know their stuff! even if they are new to a game, they know the importance of making your character correct the first time!
That may be true for a game you purchase in a box, but not for something you download to "give it a try". At that point you don't even know if you're going to actually become a paying customer or not. So why would you spend hours reading up on the game instead of just playing it and see if you like it? At least I distinctly remember myself getting pretty tired of yet another screen during the creation of my first character (well, except for the part where you create the portrait of course).
Originally by: Sade Onyx Its called min-maxing, making every character's statistics identical out of the box does not encourage diversity, it encourages completely the opposite! - how can you not understand that?
How so? You yourself just said that people do the math. This also means that (before Apocrypha) they'd all end up with a Caldari Achura, which is exactly the opposite of "encouraging diversity".
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:42:00 -
[83]
So the only reason to pick one race or backstory for another is for RP reasons. For the other 95% of players you might as well not even have a choice since they are all the same stat-wise.
I would like to see the race and stats influence something else besides learning, even if it is just a token bonus. Otherwise I think for most people you might as well just have a create random character button, cause what the f. difference does it make?
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Sunbird Huy
Caldari Wolf Task Force Gemini Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:00:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Nareg Maxence So the only reason to pick one race or backstory for another is for RP reasons. For the other 95% of players you might as well not even have a choice since they are all the same stat-wise.
I would like to see the race and stats influence something else besides learning, even if it is just a token bonus. Otherwise I think for most people you might as well just have a create random character button, cause what the f. difference does it make?
Signed.
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Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:32:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Emily Poast on 16/02/2009 17:32:38 Here is another reason they are doing it:
Before, you could make an "unskilled" trade alt that could put up 50+ orders and has a slight discount on broker fees. This required no training at all, and could fill up 2 slots on a main account, all while never costing the main any training time.
Now, if you want a trade (or hauler or producer or whatever) alt, you are actually going to have to spend time training him, and thus not traning your main. I suspect they hope that this means alt accounts will actually be new full, paying accounts instead of secondary and tertiary "untrained" characters on a main account.
Just a guess.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:49:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Random Womble on 16/02/2009 17:49:40 I find it ammusing that the op is so ignorant of eve before when he obviously joined (post 800k starting SP boost) when max sp you could get was about 300k and included a racial frigate to 5 which was 256k of that sp and minimum was about 20-30k back then you could not get drones 5 you might have had drones 1 or 2 possibly (i cant really remember).
CCP thingy is right back then i know i chose my race because of the backstory behind them not because i wanted xyz skills and i screwed my attributes because i had no idea what they did. I wanted to RP and just never could be bothered to put in the effort the only thing i held off was training amarr skills but now even that has fallen by the wayside however now days if i wanted to make a new char i would just choose the best attributes and train from there because right now thats the only diffrence that matters.
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Lee Dalton
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:23:00 -
[87]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
You shouldn't have to pick your race based on what ships or weapons you want to use. You should pick it based on the backstory and appearance, then pick skills that will bring you to what you ultimately want to be.
Yes, this is why choosing a profession lets you get straight into what you want. I can see the new system is much more flexible, but the new players will not be able to do much until they pick a career path to try and spend a few hours training it.
Originally by: CCP Gangleri This is what the new system facilitates, as opposed to everyone choosing Achura just for the stats.
There are many other good stat rolls.
Originally by: CCP Gangleri New players will now make a character and then get to try out different types of gameplay before choosing their profession, it allows them to mold their stats and skill choices as they go instead of having to re-roll after two weeks to get a better start.
Ok, this is a good thing.
My question to you so: Why allow *multiple* respecs?
I can see why you want a more flexible start for new characters, fine.
I can see why a *single* stat reroll for new toons after they have chosen their career path and know what the attributes mean is a good thing.
I can also understand giving all the other players a stat reroll to be "fair" and allow them the same change, especially with all the changes in EVE.
What I cannot understand is why a respec every 6 months it to be allowed. Furthermore, I see no good reason to allow multiple stat changes.
The argument of "flexibility" is meaningless. You can already train anything you want. This change *removes diversity*, rather than adding flexibility.
In addition to this, this will be more beneficial to older characters who have their support skills etc trained up to a reasonable standard and now need to spend long periods of time training a single skill, rather than helping new characters like I assume you intend.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:25:00 -
[88]
So with attribs being meaningless now can we change our picture to one of other race/bloodline? Me wants khanid.
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MJ Maverick
IronPig Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:06:00 -
[89]
Oh dear, role play take over...
It used to be that if you wanted to role play you could, if you didn't then you didn't. Now they are seemingly trying to make everyone play the way they want to... Role-play. Business Plan Fail.
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Arengor
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:14:00 -
[90]
Ok. This is good to have no fixed stats. But starting skills are part of character's race. It is good for player to fly ships of his race. But if there will no be start skill points, when there will no be roleplay. Minmatars will fly amarrian ship, gallente will use ravens e.t.c.
Today that happens only after several amount of time, when player finishes to learn his racial ships and wants something new. After changes we will have a lot of mutants...
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Delishandra Ptlaemaique
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:47:00 -
[91]
so all in all, everybody is complaining, RPers because all race are the same statwise, non-RPers because only backstory is different, which they do not care about. Maybe its a big indication that its a good change...
I tried a new caracter on sisi, but had no tutorial (because I start in station by default?), and I couldn't change my attributes (it asked for 5m, a bug?). And there is a placeholder for a video presentation for each race (only sound for now, but I guess a small video is to come).
On the other hand I saw nowhere the story of eve, with earth, the colonisation, the collapsing gates etc, so some backstory might be hard to get for a noob...
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:29:00 -
[92]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Originally by: Legionos McGuiros Edited by: Legionos McGuiros on 16/02/2009 13:36:41 If you wnat that to be so CCP Gangleri then it would be nice if you included more backstory in the character creation. When i started eve for teh first time, watched the amazing introduction movie and then read the story on each of the races and bloodlines i knew who i was going to pick. But now if i was a new player i would not have a clue.
There is an introduction for each race, I suppose that part of the new player experience isn't on Sisi yet. But I can assure you that there will be backstory introductions for each race.
like a little video intro?
if so then.. cool.
also you better stick the whole backstory of the game in there somewhere.. ok? I think new players should understand how we all came to be here in new eden
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Mica Swanhaven
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:30:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Delishandra Ptlaemaique so all in all, everybody is complaining, RPers because all race are the same statwise, non-RPers because only backstory is different, which they do not care about. Maybe its a big indication that its a good change...
I tried a new caracter on sisi, but had no tutorial (because I start in station by default?), and I couldn't change my attributes (it asked for 5m, a bug?). And there is a placeholder for a video presentation for each race (only sound for now, but I guess a small video is to come).
On the other hand I saw nowhere the story of eve, with earth, the colonisation, the collapsing gates etc, so some backstory might be hard to get for a noob...
yeah I still believe the 1st thing the tutorial should do it make you open the market, and show you how to buy and fit a civilian shield booster. that would be great for right before the combat.
shich once you undock the tutorial should start.
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Mirei Jun
Right to Rule FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:36:00 -
[94]
Starting with drones Level 5 certainly was a big help for me. I had no idea what it took to do combat missions, or anything else for that matter. But choosing a starting path and having the appropriate skills handed to me really helped. I imagine all professions are like this.
On the other side of this argument, I had to choose my race and character based on what type of stats I wanted, not which race or portrait looked best to me. However, these decisions were tied not to my starting skills, but rather my starting attributes (I knew nothing about skill training and just chose stats I liked).
I think the added attribute adjustment feature is great. It will allow new players to adjust after learning more about Eve, and older players to strategically plan their training. However, starting with almost no skills means new players, who don't understand anything about Eve yet, will have no idea which skills actually serve their interests. This means they will likely either train skills that don't help their goals, or spend a great deal of time reading instead of trying out the basics of what Eve has to offer.
Additionally, while the time for training will be halved, it is still time they will spend simply waiting. With poorly trained attributes, even a rank 1 skill takes days to train fully. Eve is, at its heart a science fiction based social networking scheme. But for new players skills still carry a great deal of weight and define oneÆs ability to participate and succeed in the PVE aspect of Eve. The training queue will in some ways mitigate this waiting, while at the same time exacerbate misunderstandings. New players will not start with a core set of tools to help them and will be forced to wait. Is waiting what you want new potential players (aka, potential customers) to be doing?
I say this to you because we all know Eve has a VERY steep learning curve. While efforts are being made to improve this, the fact still remains that Eve can seem inaccessible to some -perhaps many. Adding initial difficulties and frustrations could very well be the tipping point which causes a new player to close Eve, uninstall, and never consider the game again. This is bad for you as a business and us as users of your service. We all want this grand experiment known as Eve to thrive.
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Kayscha
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:04:00 -
[95]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
You shouldn't have to pick your race based on what ships or weapons you want to use. You should pick it based on the backstory and appearance, then pick skills that will bring you to what you ultimately want to be. This is what the new system facilitates, as opposed to everyone choosing Achura just for the stats.
While it is indeed sad that everyone would choose Achura for stats, you are not making it any better with your solution. Instead of balancing the races and bloodlines to even out players' preferences, you make them base it on something EVEN MORE superficial: looks! Do you really think that more than 10% of players would choose any other races than the 3 coolest looking ones? Race has no more meaning unless you want to roleplay a character with a very specific background (that is not in the least supported by the game's mechanic!) for some reason.
So, to save us some breath, tell us, dear Gangleri: Is the decision on this already final or is there some movement space left to accomodate arguments and general unrest on these forums? I wanna know if I should make suggestions or rather just emo-rage a bit.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:41:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Kayscha
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
You shouldn't have to pick your race based on what ships or weapons you want to use. You should pick it based on the backstory and appearance, then pick skills that will bring you to what you ultimately want to be. This is what the new system facilitates, as opposed to everyone choosing Achura just for the stats.
While it is indeed sad that everyone would choose Achura for stats, you are not making it any better with your solution. Instead of balancing the races and bloodlines to even out players' preferences, you make them base it on something EVEN MORE superficial: looks! Do you really think that more than 10% of players would choose any other races than the 3 coolest looking ones? Race has no more meaning unless you want to roleplay a character with a very specific background (that is not in the least supported by the game's mechanic!) for some reason.
So, to save us some breath, tell us, dear Gangleri: Is the decision on this already final or is there some movement space left to accomodate arguments and general unrest on these forums? I wanna know if I should make suggestions or rather just emo-rage a bit.
If your backplot is irrelevant, then ... so what - pick what you think looks best.
If the backplot is relevant... then so be it. Pick a character based on it, and train your skills accordingly. -- 249km locking? |
Neth'Rae
Gallente Decorum Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:58:00 -
[97]
I don't get it, why do people want certain races to be gimped?
When I did a character for my friend I was forced to pick the khanid bloodline because all the others had the wrong stats.. Achura had been the best ofc but they look way to ridiculous..
I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here! |
Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.17 01:31:00 -
[98]
/me rasise hand.
Um... I picked this race so i could be a missile *****. and the economic/military life style.
when I started that's what i thought to be first. missile major ---
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AngryMax
Gallente Executable Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.17 02:15:00 -
[99]
I started out with massive charisma. I welcome this change.
This thread is utter fail btw. It changes nothing. You can still spec in other race if you so desire with current system. It doesnt take THAT long to get good drone skills.
A lot of people in this thread have whining at 5 it seems. Its an easy skill to train.
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Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.17 02:43:00 -
[100]
I looked at the new char creation thingy. Its a massive change, but what I don't get is why did you bother keeping the Ancestry? It looks like there was supost to be a package deal going on, but it only shows more back story. ---
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Vyktor Abyss
IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:28:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 17/02/2009 04:29:17
Forum just ate my long post.
TL DR version:
Gallente identity has been nerfed repeatedly from close range, high DPS experts and the major drone race to a fairly homogenous race with only 3 specialist drone ships (Ishtar, Ishkur, Dominix), while other races have recieved massive drone boosts over the years. So I do see where the OP is coming from.
While starting folks off with vanilla attributes is sensible, making them have vanilla skills too makes no sense. Racial differences are a good thing, as is having characters fly their own race and use their own races weapons...it would be a shame to lose that.
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ResearchBunny Beatrix
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:32:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Zex Maxwell I looked at the new char creation thingy. Its a massive change, but what I don't get is why did you bother keeping the Ancestry? It looks like there was supost to be a package deal going on, but it only shows more back story.
Quoting this, the ancestry stuff is basically garbage now since it doesn't contribute anything other than a "click me because you have to" feeling.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:37:00 -
[103]
The real reason for identical attributes is rid the universe of Achura.
I am most pleased by this.
- Infectious - |
J'inko Unn
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Posted - 2009.02.17 06:03:00 -
[104]
CCP doesn't want this to be more about the story of EVE, rather then picking the best character. While I miss the old system of character creation, I do not entirely mind it. Also the starter of this thread merely is referring to the fact that it's been empathized that Gallentians are more prone to do more damage with drones, Caldarai do more damage with missiles, Amarrians with lasers, and Minimatar with auto cannons/artillery, and missles.
Keep in mind the introduction is for people that have never played EVE before, and this is the "hooking" system, so this is how they feel to best represent it :-)
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Wingshard
Ikazuchi and Raikou Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.17 11:19:00 -
[105]
just a question from my side...
*adding some content before ;P*
the current achura has 3 charisma.
any new charackter can through statschange get his charisma down to a min value of 5.
*question incomming*
if i now switch my attributes during the new expansion so that charisma is 5 or greater... will i be able to get it under 5 again cause i once had 3?
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Maliece
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.17 13:59:00 -
[106]
i really like the chance to respec my attributes, every 6 months may not be necessary but ok for me, i¦m only looking to get rid of some newb mistakes i¦ve done 3 years ago ;-)
for the creation of new caracters i would suggest a two way solution
basic character creation for new players: choosing from paths like trading, combat, science, manufacturing ect. and let the players start with a core set of skills and stats depending on their race and education, the way it works now on TQ This will give new players a toolset to start and a direction to improve their abilitys.
advanced character creation: only chose race, bloodline and education for rp purpose and the ability to distribute stats ans skills from start within the max sp and attribute points. Maybe you would like to fade out all non trial account skills for this distribution.
Attribute respec is a very welcome occasion for me. For RP purpose and WIS i would love to get a chance to rechoose my Race, Bloodline and school on my characters too. At least one chance to change this would be great in the future. Tbh i wouldn¦t care if i will have to pay for this isk or real mony.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:34:00 -
[107]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Your point is moot, because it never mattered what race you start off as as you can always train any skill. But now this prevents new players from making mistakes by having 500K or so in skills that they will never use.
Not really, they have to train skills to know what to use. If they wanted to reduce errors and still make players feel more useful they would add skills that everyone wanted to train to get those "grinds" out of the way so that players could spend more time deciding what they liked.
For the most part, you really need 4 in a skill to be able to determine if something is right for you. The difference in ability between the ships is too small to notice at 5% levels of differentiation.
Granted, this means that the main problem is not the new homogeneity, but the new lower skillpoint total to start out with. But it still means that its an overall bad idea.
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Aynen
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Posted - 2009.02.17 18:40:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Aynen on 17/02/2009 18:40:52 Personally I believe that if getting more roleplay characters is the point, this isn't the way to do it. Attracting roleplayers to your game has everything to do with marketing. And Eve isn't marketed that way. Eve is a technically difficult and complicated game, this attracts gamers with analytical minds. Those gamers are far more inclined to make a statistically good character than to create a psychologically believable one. The 'walking in stations' expansion has a far greater chance of luring in roleplayers, and is a far better environment for allowing players the time to get into character. Even the most seasoned roleplayer would be too busy trying to stay allive in a firefight to say anything roleplay-like.
So if it'll be mostly analytical players who make use of the character creation then by far most of that player-base will analyse that race has become pointless. Making this a feature change aimed at only a currently very small portion of the player-base. Had the change been introduced simultainously with, or after the 'walking in stations' expansion, that'd have been different.
You've given us the chance to roleplay any race we want without penalty, but haven't yet given us an environment in which we can really do so effectively.
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CCP Gangleri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:01:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Aynen Edited by: Aynen on 17/02/2009 18:40:52 Personally I believe that if getting more roleplay characters is the point, this isn't the way to do it. Attracting roleplayers to your game has everything to do with marketing. And Eve isn't marketed that way. Eve is a technically difficult and complicated game, this attracts gamers with analytical minds. Those gamers are far more inclined to make a statistically good character than to create a psychologically believable one. The 'walking in stations' expansion has a far greater chance of luring in roleplayers, and is a far better environment for allowing players the time to get into character. Even the most seasoned roleplayer would be too busy trying to stay allive in a firefight to say anything roleplay-like.
So if it'll be mostly analytical players who make use of the character creation then by far most of that player-base will analyse that race has become pointless. Making this a feature change aimed at only a currently very small portion of the player-base. Had the change been introduced simultainously with, or after the 'walking in stations' expansion, that'd have been different.
You've given us the chance to roleplay any race we want without penalty, but haven't yet given us an environment in which we can really do so effectively.
Your definition of role play is apparently much narrower than mine. In my view every choice you make in character creation is role play, you choose a bloodline for its cool name or just looks. Both are role play, even creating a comical portrait is. It is impossible to go through the character creation process without rolep laying since you are creating an avatar that will represent you in a fictional setting. Thats pretty much what you do at the start of every role play session I have ever been part of.
Whether you choose to actively role play after that or not is irrelevant to this thread, this thread is about the character creation process and the way it has changed. Getting more role play characters was not the point of the change, but a lot of the complaints posted here about the new system were based around it inhibiting role play, which is what I addressed in my posts.
Also, you are in combat, trying to destroy another fictional characters possessions in a fictional universe... whether you talk or not during the engagement you are still roleplaying in my book ------------------
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Aynen
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:15:00 -
[110]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Originally by: Aynen Edited by: Aynen on 17/02/2009 18:40:52 Personally I believe that if getting more roleplay characters is the point, this isn't the way to do it. Attracting roleplayers to your game has everything to do with marketing. And Eve isn't marketed that way. Eve is a technically difficult and complicated game, this attracts gamers with analytical minds. Those gamers are far more inclined to make a statistically good character than to create a psychologically believable one. The 'walking in stations' expansion has a far greater chance of luring in roleplayers, and is a far better environment for allowing players the time to get into character. Even the most seasoned roleplayer would be too busy trying to stay allive in a firefight to say anything roleplay-like.
So if it'll be mostly analytical players who make use of the character creation then by far most of that player-base will analyse that race has become pointless. Making this a feature change aimed at only a currently very small portion of the player-base. Had the change been introduced simultainously with, or after the 'walking in stations' expansion, that'd have been different.
You've given us the chance to roleplay any race we want without penalty, but haven't yet given us an environment in which we can really do so effectively.
Your definition of role play is apparently much narrower than mine. In my view every choice you make in character creation is role play, you choose a bloodline for its cool name or just looks. Both are role play, even creating a comical portrait is. It is impossible to go through the character creation process without rolep laying since you are creating an avatar that will represent you in a fictional setting. Thats pretty much what you do at the start of every role play session I have ever been part of.
Whether you choose to actively role play after that or not is irrelevant to this thread, this thread is about the character creation process and the way it has changed. Getting more role play characters was not the point of the change, but a lot of the complaints posted here about the new system were based around it inhibiting role play, which is what I addressed in my posts.
Also, you are in combat, trying to destroy another fictional characters possessions in a fictional universe... whether you talk or not during the engagement you are still roleplaying in my book
You make a good point there, my definition of roleplay is a bit different indeed. I suppose from your perspective that would mean that even when you're playing a realtime strategy game you're roleplaying as a fictional general ordering fictional forces around. It's a valid point of view.
However, I still argue that the players who do not approach character creation from a statistical point of view form a very small portion of the player-base. From a design standpoint, is it smart to make such a change against the bulk of the playerbase's will? Or do you think I'm incorrect in saying that the analytical gamer forms the bulk of the playerbase?
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CCP Gangleri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:28:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Aynen
You make a good point there, my definition of roleplay is a bit different indeed. I suppose from your perspective that would mean that even when you're playing a realtime strategy game you're roleplaying as a fictional general ordering fictional forces around. It's a valid point of view.
However, I still argue that the players who do not approach character creation from a statistical point of view form a very small portion of the player-base. From a design standpoint, is it smart to make such a change against the bulk of the playerbase's will? Or do you think I'm incorrect in saying that the analytical gamer forms the bulk of the playerbase?
I think most MMO players have an analytical mind, doubly so in Eve due to its depth and complexity. However I fail to see how the new system is worse in this regard than the old one. ------------------
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Aynen
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:04:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Originally by: Aynen
You make a good point there, my definition of roleplay is a bit different indeed. I suppose from your perspective that would mean that even when you're playing a realtime strategy game you're roleplaying as a fictional general ordering fictional forces around. It's a valid point of view.
However, I still argue that the players who do not approach character creation from a statistical point of view form a very small portion of the player-base. From a design standpoint, is it smart to make such a change against the bulk of the playerbase's will? Or do you think I'm incorrect in saying that the analytical gamer forms the bulk of the playerbase?
I think most MMO players have an analytical mind, doubly so in Eve due to its depth and complexity. However I fail to see how the new system is worse in this regard than the old one.
Older players often made their choice of character in order to gain a tactical advantage. This tactical advantage is now taken from them. They don't like that.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:06:00 -
[113]
TBH I feel that the tutorial just needs tweeking.
1!)The combat section needs a section on Drones, and maybee a section on missle launchers.
2@)that odd glitch I ran into that started the tutorial (Mountain out of molehills) in the middle then rebooted to the first mission in the arc thus giveing you 2 Indis from the arc when your only suposed to get 1(I got the Industrials from doing all of the tutorial missions and ended up with three)
3#) the oddity that the game gives you refining skillbook when you dont have the skills needed to train it. (the way the tutorial is scripted it sound like you cant refine at all untill you train the skill but you cant even train the skill untill you get industry skill)
4$) I would sudgest that you add sections for other weapons used (Missles and Drones)
5%) Industry arc needs a section dealing with BPOs and doing R&D work on them. maybe grant a "Civilian module" BPO and have the player send it to ME or Copy or R&D research for example (heck add in "Civilian BPO only" sections to the existing labs and scrip it to only take Civilian BPOs that have not been researched so twits cant just plug in the same BPO to plug up the works)
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:39:00 -
[114]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri Your definition of role play is apparently much narrower than mine.
You are a roleplayer if roleplay your character in game, if you are in a RP corp or if you follow IGS and post in there occationally. Otherwise you are not a roleplayer. Choosing a particular race because you like its description better is not RP.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Nareg Maxence
Originally by: CCP Gangleri Your definition of role play is apparently much narrower than mine.
You are a roleplayer if roleplay your character in game, if you are in a RP corp or if you follow IGS and post in there occationally. Otherwise you are not a roleplayer. Choosing a particular race because you like its description better is not RP.
that's like saying if you plat D&D but don't "roleplay" you aren't roleplaying.
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Kayscha
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:42:00 -
[116]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
I think most MMO players have an analytical mind, doubly so in Eve due to its depth and complexity. However I fail to see how the new system is worse in this regard than the old one.
You have still not made any valid point as to how removing racial diversity (stats-wise) improves the game in any way.
On the other hand, countless posts have been made arguing the opposite.
BTW: please elaborate some more on how creating a character (well, not really; you just create a face and a name, now, don't you?) at your pc already is roleplaying. I guess most of us were of the opinion that roleplaying is what you do with it afterwards. For example, mining in a battlecruiser with a character specialized in trading. Less so if everyone is just an identical presumptious immortal demigod clone with an individual face and name...
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:49:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Kayscha
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
I think most MMO players have an analytical mind, doubly so in Eve due to its depth and complexity. However I fail to see how the new system is worse in this regard than the old one.
You have still not made any valid point as to how removing racial diversity (stats-wise) improves the game in any way.
On the other hand, countless posts have been made arguing the opposite.
BTW: please elaborate some more on how creating a character (well, not really; you just create a face and a name, now, don't you?) at your pc already is roleplaying. I guess most of us were of the opinion that roleplaying is what you do with it afterwards. For example, mining in a battlecruiser with a character specialized in trading. Less so if everyone is just an identical presumptious immortal demigod clone with an individual face and name...
I guess it's more based a vampire type of system. WHITEWOLF. where your race and bloodline (dear god it fits) don't effect you at all really as far as what you can be.
However CCP, in vampire, you get little negitive effects, or boosts and such to skills.
So like one bloodline in vamp has the defect of being too cuaght up with art.
or another one is insane.
I don't know how to put negative things into a video game though...
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Kayscha
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:54:00 -
[118]
Originally by: MotherMoon
I guess it's more based a vampire type of system. WHITEWOLF. where your race and bloodline (dear god it fits) don't effect you at all really as far as what you can be.
However CCP, in vampire, you get little negitive effects, or boosts and such to skills.
Well, that's exactly what I'd like to see. If ou wanted to be an Amarr drone god, you should be able to, but you would still have something besides your portrait that'd distinguish you from a Gallente.
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Aynen
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:55:00 -
[119]
I believe that roleplaying (in the sense of actively 'acting' a persona) isn't stimulated by the absense of statistics. It's stimulated by the presense of a social environment.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.17 21:30:00 -
[120]
I am not roleplaying, I am simply playing a game where I pretend to be a space captain on a starship in the far future.
Why is this not obvious?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Vegetable Goodsoup
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:15:00 -
[121]
When walking in stations gets put in,races will matter,atleast look wise.Not to mention who knows what CCP has planned ... FPS battles with guns and melee,that would be awesome,and each race could have different stats and perks,for exemple minmatar could take alot of dmg and be strongest in melee,while amarr has the ability to throw books at you and spew religios profanities !
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Excessive Force
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:53:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 17/02/2009 22:55:22
Originally by: Kayscha Edited by: Kayscha on 17/02/2009 20:50:15
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
I think most MMO players have an analytical mind, doubly so in Eve due to its depth and complexity. However I fail to see how the new system is worse in this regard than the old one.
You have still not made any valid point as to how removing racial diversity (stats-wise) improves the game in any way.
On the other hand, countless posts have been made arguing the opposite.
BTW: please elaborate some more on how creating a character (well, not really; you just create a face and a name, now, don't you?) at your pc already is roleplaying. I guess most of us were of the opinion that roleplaying is what you do with it afterwards. For example, mining in a battlecruiser with a character specialized in trading. Less so if everyone is just an identical presumptious immortal demigod clone with an individual face and name...
I further suggest that you do not label something as roleplaying that is quite obviously not within the majority's idea of roleplaying. Much as you wouldn't try to advertise bananas as cucumbers just because your very personal definition of bananas would include them as well as small sticks, scissors and dead rats. If you did, some might call that "failure to communicate". Others might call it differently, and loudly so.
*gives Kayscha a gold star*
At least you are doing a better job at explaining what the last few pages worth of posters have obviously failed to express.
"Roleplay" does seem to have a varying definition among the players. For some, it's as simple as having a different name and face while you pretend to fly a ship. For some, it's sitting down and browsing every single page and article in the Eve Background before you ever attempt to log into the game.
Some players just look at a mission briefing long enough to see what NPC they're facing, and how long they have to collect the bonus. Some players read the paragraphs worth of text, trying to understand the implications of their participation in the economics and politics of different galactic factions.
So for CCP to blindly assume that players will do their homework, and understand the ramifications of choosing one race or bloodline over another, is asinine. And stating "if nothing else, pick a pretty one" is just as asinine. "If you're going to do something, then do it right", or at least that's what my parents told me growing up.
If you intend on making a setting with as rich a background as Eve has thus far, don't lower your standards now by making such a bland and uninteresting beginning for the players in that setting. If on the other hand, you have no interest in persisting the setting's background... Since the first paragraph of the new and official Wiki page says Eve is an MMOG, not necessarily an MMORPG.
Perhaps everyone is feeling disgruntled because they are losing the tactical advantages they inherited upon character selection. But I also feel a lot of people are disgruntled because the very basis of Eve is being lost. Factional Warfare made a miniscule attempt to bring attention onto the races, but failed. Gall pilots, flying Amarr craft, fighting for the Minmatar, with no repercussions.
It's been said, and often shot down, what whatever. Why not include some sort of racial bonus? Evidently T3 are symbiotic, based on the SP loss crap. So why not allow some merging between a Gall pilot and their Proteus. Between Amarr and their Legion. Some reason to pick one over the other, since the lines are otherwise fading into obscurity. It'd be a stretch to ask for the same added to all craft, but who knows.
Either way, either something needs to be kept distinct between each race, other than a drivers license photo... or their truly is no point in choosing a Caldari or Gallente. "Um, my teacher said there was a war once?" --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
BiggestT
Caldari Intergalactic Jesters Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.02.18 01:34:00 -
[123]
Originally by: CCP Casqade
Quote: No drone skills?! EPIC FAIL!!! Why do all of the characters start with the exact same skills, except for the faction frigate and gunnery skills?
I don't believe that skills to a new player mean much at all. I believe it makes more sense for the new player to choose what they like to do and then reward the player with skills in that field or guide them how to become better, rather than giving them a bit of everything. The Imicus is the only frigate that has a drone bonus (Drone range, which is not the most useful bonus for a new player) and all races have frigates that are capable of fielding drones.
What do you think? Can you please explain why you this is a bad idea?
Wait..what? Theres a caldari frig that can field drones?
And I think in a game like EvE, you sorta need a bit of everything as a noob. Being noobs, the new players will likely chose a whole bunch of random hodgepodge skills, which dont suit the current metagame (e.g. fof missiles, smartbombs for a noob etc). Or just skills that dont compliment: trade + lasers with no tanking skills etc.
Giving them base skills like it was before is great as they have something to work with, no-one I know seems to have had trouble with this, what ever happened to "If it aint broke, dont fix it"? EVE history
t2 precisions |
Valya Dire
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Posted - 2009.02.18 03:18:00 -
[124]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: CCP Casqade ...all races have frigates that are capable of fielding drones...
Wait..what? Theres a caldari frig that can field drones?
Bantam Griffin Heron
While true, it doesn't mean they're any good at it
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Kayscha
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Posted - 2009.02.18 20:05:00 -
[125]
I have certain doubts that every or even most new players are first and foremost looking towards optimising their character already at creation. Sure, they will want enough information at their fingertips, and if that is not yet available, quickly make it so.
But: character creation should be a series of meaningful choices. There shouldn't be any obvious 'best' choices but instead a wide variety of interesting ones to make a challenging decision. Players should be able to most closely design the character they have in mind for character creation, be it a roguish smuggler with a kind heart, a radical industrialist with a dark agenda or a religious zealot on an economic crusade against non-believers. More, give us backgrounds, give us failures and second chances, give us handicaps as trade-offs for special strengths.
And if our choices will later turn out to have been less than optimal because we decided to move into another direction than originally thought, or even just because we misunderstood something: so what!? Such is life (and boxes of chocolate): you never know what's in it. Besides, by then, we'll be so in love with out special but unique alter ego that we wouldn't have it any other way.
Honestly, to even as much as suggest that I change my attributes after six years feels like a huge slap in the face. As likely ask me if I would like to switch the personality of my daughter for one that seems more opportune at the moment. Think about it.
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Surana Rens
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Posted - 2009.02.19 14:35:00 -
[126]
I just want to say I'm very much looking forward to being able to assign attributes.
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The Snowman
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.19 15:26:00 -
[127]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Also, you are in combat, trying to destroy another fictional characters possessions in a fictional universe... whether you talk or not during the engagement you are still roleplaying in my book
its an MMORPG, we all know what RPG means (and no, it doesnt mean Rocket Propelled Grenade)
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Jacobs Gladedage
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Posted - 2009.03.08 23:38:00 -
[128]
New players will no longer have a tiny insignificant head start into some of their race's ships, but the ships havn't changed so you can still go exactly the same way if you want to. New caldari pilots can still pick up missile skills and benefit from flying caldari ships while they're in caldari space and so on.
Since you'll train skills faster for the first period (I forgot how long) the only difference is that new players have more freedom. Which I have a hard time understanding why anyone would consider bad?
The stats are another story. On one hand I think spreading the useful skills out more evenly would've made more sense than a homogenisation of the races and bloodlines, on the other hand that would only really work if it had been done from the beginning since it might screw over a lot of veterans. I can't say I see it as a negative thing though, I've played 10 years now and I can't name a single one that has had static racial abilities or stats; and I personally consider chosing your race based on stats over looks is upright insane, however, a lot of people certainly do it.
The way I see it everyone will get to pick exactly the race and bloodline they think looks the coolest now with no regards to anything else. Which is awesome in my book because it removes the differences between roleplayers and stat addicts while making the life of people who care about both stats and looks a billion times easier.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2009.03.09 01:17:00 -
[129]
race still determines what noob ship you get if you dock at a station where you don't own a ship.... and this is somewhere where us minmatar shine \o/
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Fallen 187
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Posted - 2009.03.09 01:45:00 -
[130]
To all those that say nobody rp's anymore or everyone will read the most they can about an mmo to maximize the potential and exploit it to it's fullest is full of crap and doesn't know s**t. I got into EVE alittle over 2 yrs ago off of a banner ad in a website. This has been my first and only mmo. I did not know what it meant to lose items or how people could kill thier children over a loss in a game from being distracted. (true story about a player of Everquest).
So I decide to try and see what MMO's where all about and Eve just happen to be my first. No credit card needed, 14 day free trial. I joined without any research, created my Gallente char from the story, not from attribs or starting skills...I had no idea what they really meant actually. A month later when everything started to click and I started understanding the game did I realize my mistake. I should have chosen Caldari Achura for attribs strictly. Then I would be just like all others.
I think with this move CCP has hit it out of the park with the way a character should be created. EPIC WIN. Conclusion? It is about the story, even if I don't pay attention to it now...I did when I created my character and that's important. Maybe will see more Amarr characters.
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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.03.09 02:45:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Shirley Serious
Originally by: Matt G What is the point now in having separate races?
roleplay.
Different character portrait options.
then could we please get a "rechange" of everything with the patch? ;)
so we can chose the bloodline etc on what we wanted by history and not stats/attributes ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Stitcher
Caldari ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.09 03:41:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Stitcher on 09/03/2009 03:44:27
Originally by: Matt G Holy cow already, so all you guys are saying the same thing over and over again. Enough of this stupid convo already. I guess EVE was not all in-depth to begin with.
People keep saying the same thing over and over again because you're wrong, mate.
Originally by: Sade Onyx People READ UP about mmo's now, people ask questions about "whats best".... There will be a cookie cutter character path that everyone will copy. And you have LOST the mix of characters you have now and be breeding clones.
I completely agree with OP, There needs to be SOME difference between races just as there are vast differences in education with races on earth!
Major flaw in your logic there. Specifically that we already HAVE a cookie cutter character path for everyone to copy: Achura> Monk > Military > Special Forces (I think that's the one). And because Achura males look goofy, they all take females. And Achura females all look the same.
The result: A vast clone army of identical japanese-looking women with the same skills, clothing, hairstyles, facial structure, expression and background.
So this new creation system drops the balance of skills and stats that makes the Achura build so popular, and replaces it with having the player choose which in-universe, in-character background they like the most. By doing that, it's actually encouraging diversity.
Why have it? Because EVE is more than Microsoft Excel online.
Originally by: The Snowman its an MMORPG, we all know what RPG means (and no, it doesnt mean Rocket Propelled Grenade)
Ooh, I know this one! It's Really Portly Gentlemen!
...or was it Rhinos Playing Guitars?
Rude Pickle Gun? - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Ferria
Caldari FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.03.09 03:49:00 -
[133]
This is an RPG, darn I thought it was internet spaceships blowing each other up
but then again ISBEOU is a bit long and sounds funny
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.09 04:13:00 -
[134]
This is great. Nobody will ever make an Achura again. EVER.
/salute CCP
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.09 05:49:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Wet Ferret This is great. Nobody will ever make an Achura again. EVER.
/salute CCP
your forgetting ambulation, soon the males might be sexy :P
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azurisk
Caldari Next-Gen Carpe-Diem
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Posted - 2009.03.09 10:44:00 -
[136]
Edited by: azurisk on 09/03/2009 10:45:03 I think their has never been any advantage to choose one over the other. In my honest opinion each race should get like a small multiplier to training time for race specific skills. That would make more then 1 race useful, would make sense as well i think, for each race to train their race specific skills faster. Would not need much balancing as everyone gets the same bonus. But that's just my 2 cents.
Azurisk
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Stitcher
Caldari ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:02:00 -
[137]
To summarize the CCP philosophy behind characters and skills:
"You aren't defined by what you are, but by who you want to be."
Being an Amarr or a Caldari or whatever has always been a cosmetic choice. ALWAYS. Ever since day 1. Sure, you might start with 800,000-ish SP (or less, back when I first joined) with a few neat little specializations - I think there's a couple of starting builds out there which put you within a couple of days at most of assault ships 1, assuming you can afford one...
But I have fifty-something million skillpoints by now. The fact that I started out as a mineral prospector via the Industry tree means jack next to the three years of PvP-related skills I've built up. I may have started out as a Caldari miner, but nowadays I'm a very competent Amarr/Caldari pilot, with some skills in Minmatar ships for good measure. If I bothered to train up my Gallente ship skills some, I'd be a top-flight Megathron pilot very quickly, thanks to my tech 2 large blaster skills (for my Rokh), top-flight capacitor skills and good armour tanking skills (for my Geddon).
There IS no benefit to choosing one race over another, aside from the attribute layout. there never has been. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Prior Tomin
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:38:00 -
[138]
I have seen this happen in many games. THey start out with unique qualities, traits and abilities...then through time get watered down into sameness and equality. Why companies continue to do this baffles me...its not the intent that created the games unique appeal. Will CCP follow the other dieing games of BF2 etc...seems so.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:42:00 -
[139]
and yet subscriber numbers are at an all time record.
Actually racial training matters moreso for tech 3 ships.
perhaps all races could get 20% boost to standing and LP gain to theri racial specific mission types and perhaps a gain bonus in terms if they fight for their native factional warfare corp.
Whos to say the sleepers wont get theri own race type down the track i was expecting jove development but ccp have pulled one out of right field we now have 4 ancient races going forward one in 3 to go.
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Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:59:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Matt G
GALLENTE ARE NOW POINTLESS.
I vote for this, number 1, make it so!
But more importantly, EvE allows you to specialize, do anything you want. If you want to have the pain of farting about with drones, specialize! By the time a new character has 1.6mill skill points, one will be uber mission running missile spewer, another crying watching their drones being popped, yet another working hard on getting into a hulk
CCP are correct about this, getting a ton of sp in skills you don't want on a character = annoying for new players.
boom .. drama bomb was a direct hit, expect GoonSwarm posts on CAOD any second! |
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Clesa
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Posted - 2009.03.09 22:56:00 -
[141]
There really does need to be a difference in race other than story and looks.
I like the idea that you train faster with faction skills. IE you train faster learning to pilot ships of your own race. That makes sense and it would at least help to say that "hey, this race and their ships are better at X. Sure you can learn to pilot this other race's ship but it will take a long time and it's better to just play that race instead if you want to do that."
I think the old idea that each race at least had something that made then unique (drone, missiles, lasers etc) was a good thing.
Personally the idea of an Amarr flying a Minmatar ship makes me shudder etc.
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Casey Windstrom
Gallente Nanobots Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.09 23:42:00 -
[142]
I'll add my own 0.02 ISK to this discussion.
I do feel that removing the starting skills from each race very much makes Eve feel more generic. I know when I started, the skills I started with very much guided the development of my character. While she can now fly other race's ships, I still heavily prefer Gallente ships, and very rarely fly the other race's. I think something will be lost to Eve when this goes live, and new players start without that bond to their own race's technologies.
I read through my skills, learned what they gave me, and what I could get in the future, and decided to keep with hybrid technology and drones, and love the hell out of them. Casey is very much a hardcore Gallente as a result. I have a Matari character as well, and will likely not be flying other races ships with her, either.
It's not always a minmaxing thing. I do like the fact that some bloodlines are better at some things. It gives *feeling* to the game, it gives reasons to BE something different. IF everything's the same, why not just make a character and allow any appearance? There's no point other than roleplay, and sadly, a lot of Eve players seem VERY hostile to roleplayers.
<shrugs> I don't know why, but there it is. I wish it were different.
Casey Windstrom - Diehard Gallente making a profit from Amarrians getting their ships blown up.
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AKLRAINSA
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Posted - 2009.03.10 00:04:00 -
[143]
Edited by: AKLRAINSA on 10/03/2009 00:04:41
Originally by: CCP Casqade
Quote: No drone skills?! EPIC FAIL!!! Why do all of the characters start with the exact same skills, except for the faction frigate and gunnery skills?
I don't believe that skills to a new player mean much at all. I believe it makes more sense for the new player to choose what they like to do and then reward the player with skills in that field or guide them how to become better, rather than giving them a bit of everything. The Imicus is the only frigate that has a drone bonus (Drone range, which is not the most useful bonus for a new player) and all races have frigates that are capable of fielding drones.
What do you think? Can you please explain why you this is a bad idea?
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.11 02:54:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Aynen I believe that roleplaying (in the sense of actively 'acting' a persona) isn't stimulated by the absense of statistics. It's stimulated by the presense of a social environment.
This is very much on the mark.
I'll throw in my two cents and say that I welcome this change.
It may seem at first that race is no longer relevant given that there are few starting benefits or advantages to each. We're used to races in EVE being tilted towards different professions and possessing certain career tendencies and talents, despite the fact that we can still create characters that buck the trend. But to do so often meant either tossing an early advantage (say, trying to become proficient in missiles early on with an int/mem character) or picking your race purely on your pre-chosen career path.
Most players opt for the latter, and this creates a sterile environment. The vast majority of Gallente characters go for drone specialization. Caldari Civire are missile/mission experts. Achura characters are almost always science oriented. Again, one can buck the trend, but to do so sacrifices efficiency. We're encouraged to play a certain way based on the race we choose, or pick our race based on the career we want. In either case, there isn't much encouragement for writing your own story.
This is even more out of place when one considers that we, playing the role of the capsule pilot, are an anomaly in and of ourselves. In a galaxy of trillions (that's 1,000,000,000,000) there are a few hundred thousand of us (.00003 percent for those counting) who have been found capable to pilot a capsule vessel and sponsored by the schools of one of the four empires. One would think that we would have unique and wildly different stories to tell other than that we followed the profession encouraged by our racial heritage.
So while we may see more Minmatar pilots flying drone boats or Amarr pilots choosing to specialize in repairing duct tape, this is nothing new by any means. The new system simply makes it easier for us to do so. Players will still min/max their characters as they have before, but now they have more portrait choices and background stories to do so. And I hardly see how this is in any way, a bad thing.
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