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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:41:00 -
[1]
Miners can drop their ore directly into one of the holds of an Orca without needing (secure) cans or anything similar. This creates a completely safe mining environment (apart from suicides) which just shouldn't be.
Increased asset security is good and understandable, and putting in effort and thought should make things safer, but 100% safety is NOT what EVE is about. Any thoughts?
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:48:00 -
[2]
1. Lacking an orca. They sit there with 1 unit in the can. they drop in the can and then grab it immediately.
Truly... the creation/use of orca just makes less bandwidth and checks required. Which is good. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Abulurd Boniface
Gallente Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:02:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Miners can drop their ore directly into one of the holds of an Orca without needing (secure) cans or anything similar. This creates a completely safe mining environment (apart from suicides) which just shouldn't be.
Increased asset security is good and understandable, and putting in effort and thought should make things safer, but 100% safety is NOT what EVE is about. Any thoughts?
There is no 100% security because in large belts the Orca driver has to haul in cans from tens of kilometers away.
So, there is always a chance that an honest-working can flipper could interfere.
Dropping ore into the corporate hangar is as it should be.
There is nothing to stop you from shooting at any ship you like. You don't need an excuse at all.
Why do you believe a miner should accomodate your need to facilitate the destruction of their ship?
Plus, not everybody has access to an Orca. They tend to be rather pricey.
I don't see your problem.
Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:27:00 -
[4]
And THAT'S where you're wrong. If the miners are within 1500m of the Orca they can directly dump their ore into one of the hangars without needing to use cans whatsoever. That's my issue with them.
I don't have problems with their role as ore collector/mining booster using their tractorbeam bonuses. It's the fact that if they choose to sit right next to their miners they don't need cans at all.
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Total Disaster
Caldari Frontier Industry
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tzar'rim And THAT'S where you're wrong. If the miners are within 1500m of the Orca they can directly dump their ore into one of the hangars without needing to use cans whatsoever. That's my issue with them.
I don't have problems with their role as ore collector/mining booster using their tractorbeam bonuses. It's the fact that if they choose to sit right next to their miners they don't need cans at all.
so what? "Carebears" are paying an incredible amount of isk to have an orca with which they can mine "safely" without having to fear some can switchers.... isn't that what the orca is suppose to do?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:52:00 -
[6]
This method is 100% failsafe, which there shouldn't be in EVE. And 500 mil isn't exactly 'an incredible amount'.
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Max Thorus
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:54:00 -
[7]
The little HighSec Pirates life became more difficult?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:04:00 -
[8]
Have no problems with things becoming more difficult or challenging. But Immunity is something EVE shouldn't have, and atm with an Orca you're immune.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:26:00 -
[9]
So, what's the difference exactly from being able to mine into the cargohold of a hulk? Besides scale?
That's 100% fail safe, no way to steal ore that way.
But here's an idea for ya: join corp of miner you want to rob. Work your way up to getting corp hangar rights. Sit next to orca with your own orca, wait for corp hangar to fill, take all the ore out of it and put it in your own Orca cargohold. Ho wait, that's not 100% fail safe!!1!
Guess I broke your thread huh?
Nother suggestion: join random corp, skip ore stealing, just fire away at corpmates without concord interfering
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:06:00 -
[10]
Come back when you are capable of rational thought.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Come back when you are capable of rational thought.
Talking to yourself ey?
Everything I said is as it is, I know it must suck for you but I only state things that are completely true. But feel free to take a shot at any of my statements.
Or make another reply without arguments but with insults like you just did if you like. It still won't make you right and as for the thread, well, that was going nowhere from the moment you hit the post button so nobody is going to mind anyway.
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Max Thorus
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:45:00 -
[12]
Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS? If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:52:00 -
[13]
Ok, lets check your amazing reasoning.
Originally by: sir gankalot So, what's the difference exactly from being able to mine into the cargohold of a hulk? Besides scale?
That's 100% fail safe, no way to steal ore that way.
But here's an idea for ya: join corp of miner you want to rob. Work your way up to getting corp hangar rights. Sit next to orca with your own orca, wait for corp hangar to fill, take all the ore out of it and put it in your own Orca cargohold. Ho wait, that's not 100% fail safe!!1!
Guess I broke your thread huh?
Nother suggestion: join random corp, skip ore stealing, just fire away at corpmates without concord interfering
Hulk has a limited cargo (even when expanded) and will have to dock up to unload ore, meaning less optimised ore/hour. It's also ONE ship so as with every ship; as long as it doesn't get suicided it's cargo is safe (apart from other ways ofcourse).
With an orca several miners can drop their ore off in complete 100% safety and then the orca can dock up unload and be back WAY before the miner's cargo hold is filled up again. This also means that he doesn't have to invest in expanded cargo holds but he can fit more mining upgrades, increasing his yield even MORE.
On your join the corp thing; that would be the same as saying that low sec piracy can be completely removed as it's just as easy to join a corp and then start killing your corp mates. This reasoning just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Especially not since you tell me to use my own orca (?) to then steal from the other's hangar(?).
As stated earlier; come back when you can come up with some actual reasoning instead of obvious flamebait, but tbh I like replying to this flamebait as it gives me the opportunity to expand why I disagree with the situation as is. It may reach more people that way.
Thanks.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Max Thorus Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS? If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
Our Confirmed Kills list states otherwise.
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Max Thorus Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS? If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
I guess you are horribly informed how miners playstyle is
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ms Delerium
Originally by: Max Thorus Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS? If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
I guess you are horribly informed how miners playstyle is
Or mine, for that matter
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Max Thorus Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS? If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
Well, I would simply not engage in such a case, I think no can flipper will.
But like I said, the Orca gives us nothing new besides larger scale, and guess what, that's what it was designed to do....
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Ok, lets check your amazing reasoning.
Hulk has a limited cargo (even when expanded) and will have to dock up to unload ore, meaning less optimised ore/hour. It's also ONE ship so as with every ship; as long as it doesn't get suicided it's cargo is safe (apart from other ways ofcourse).
With an orca several miners can drop their ore off in complete 100% safety and then the orca can dock up unload and be back WAY before the miner's cargo hold is filled up again. This also means that he doesn't have to invest in expanded cargo holds but he can fit more mining upgrades, increasing his yield even MORE.
Like I stated several times, it just ups the scale. Mining without having risk of ore theft was always possible, transfering it to a hauler without risk too. There is such a thing as secure containers which you can anchor. Hell, you as a can flipper should know, it's the first advice flippers give when someone is *****ing his ore got stolen. It's even safer than using corp hangar in Orca. Only problem is, it's a ***** to do.
So, the orca makes it easier and ups the scale of what was already possible. Gee, not something you would expect from a (sub)capital mining support ship. Or is it?
Quote:
On your join the corp thing; that would be the same as saying that low sec piracy can be completely removed as it's just as easy to join a corp and then start killing your corp mates. This reasoning just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Especially not since you tell me to use my own orca (?) to then steal from the other's hangar(?).
I was just giving you some ideas, like I said, it is entirely possible, just takes some effort, but I guess you're looking for quick easy targets. And yes, your own orca to steal ore from corp hangar of other orca. Or any other boat with a cargohold, I just mentioned orca for it's huge cargohold and to add some irony.
Well, statements still stand
Nother thing, most miners who aren't complete noobs will not have their ore stolen and/or be tricked into agressing you. So if the Orca was "fixed" it would not yield you any significant increase of targets. Which makes this entire discussion rather hypothetical. Now I don't mind that one bit, but you might be more pragmatic, in that case I advise you to find other ideas to get more 'yarrr' going on in hi-sec. Just one of my friendly tips.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:46:00 -
[19]
There is a safety vs mining yield, safer game play at the cost of lower yield due to using secure cans or docking up and unloading ore. It's the main reason why CCP refuses to increase secure can sizes; as to have a CHOICE between optimised yield OR safety.
Now it's AND faster AND 100% safe, and that's not how it should be.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tzar'rim There is a safety vs mining yield, safer game play at the cost of lower yield due to using secure cans or docking up and unloading ore. It's the main reason why CCP refuses to increase secure can sizes; as to have a CHOICE between optimised yield OR safety.
Now it's AND faster AND 100% safe, and that's not how it should be.
As I described, it's not 100% safe. Very hard to get at, but not 100% safe. Even without secure cans, like I said, experienced miners will not have their ore stolen anyway. They just park hauler next to Hulk, jet can, transfer quick.
If you wanna talk about flawed safety/mining yield ratio, I guess you're kinda miffed with secure containers too. They're so small they basicly have no use for a skilled miner. Everybody who does not have corp/alt hauler support flying a hulk will just cargohold mine, unless in a system they deem as 'safe'.
Using your logic, even HAVING a hauler is bad in the first place, it increases yield and safety compared to jet can mining with just a single hulk, docking up and switching to hauler to go and empty your can.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:32:00 -
[21]
Nope.
I have no problems with people using secure cans I have no problems with people moving back and forth I have no problems with people putting in effort (security or just being smart) I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills. I have no problems with things being difficult, challenging or needing effort I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
I DO have problems with a 100% failsafe way of doing things while at the same time increasing rewards.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:41:00 -
[22]
I love it when a pirate turns into a 3 year old and starts throwing a tantrum. The Orca was designed for this you jackass.... grow a fricken brain.
Go to 0.0 and youll find plenty to shoot. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:17:00 -
[23]
To be honest this is working as it should. As you yourself admit they are not 100% safe. There is still risk from suicide ganking (there are even a couple of threads about this atm), and you must accept that an orca is a considerable investment for this 'safety'.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Nope.
I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills.
You do realise you only get those kills cause you're exploiting a bug right?
Namely that in case of lag or being very slow at the miner's side you are able to steal the ore while his client gives no warning that he is about to steal.
If that isn't an easy kill I don't know what is. For all you know CCP designed the orca to circumvent this bug.
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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:26:00 -
[25]
I am but a doe-eyed blinking innocent little carebear, I know nothing of the big world you people so smoothly operate in.
Tell me, educate me, if combat is that thing that you so dearly crave, why not just go down into the netherworld of low to nul security where you can maim and slaughter to your heart's content? Is that not what you want? Do you not seek the shrieking-yet-brutally-curtailed howls of pain as the air vents from the compromised space frame into the endless void between the stars?
Do you not crave the spectacular effects of giant ships succumbing to the onslaught of your mighty weapons as their structure buckles under explosion after explosion of the <insert the ammunition type of your preference> that you so generously inflict upon them?
Do you not seek to mull around in the cloud of expanding debris, grasping for that sacred prize of all: loot, SWEET MERCIFUL LOOT!, that you can raise in your hands and display to your brethren while you expel a blood-curdling growl from your lungs as you celebrate your latest fabulous victory against the impossible odds that you overcame so as to make a name for yourself in the New Eden demesne? Is the greater good not the curt nod of acceptance as your peers stand in silent awe, maybe even [yes, praise the light of the very stars!] in jealous contempt, of the glory that you gather as your fearful adversaries whisper your name in silence throughout the galaxy so that it preceeds you as a cloud of quickly expanding toxic gas that steals the very breath from those who have the audacity to oppose you?
Art thou not the master corruptor? Art thou not the scourge of the universe, is there any bounty that can atone for the villainy that you so generously foist upon all who dare take up arms against you?
Is the greatest prize New Eden has to offer not merely a pittance in recognition of that marvellous creature that here stands before us, lamenting the meager contents of a pedestrian container, looking like a stray dog for the puny solace of the equivalent of a half-eaten meal? Are we to believe that our blood is enough to still your great, vast hunger? Was this the goal that you embarked on in your voyage between the stars? Are they synonyms now: pirate, pauper, peon?
Or could it be, perish the thought, that anything that offers more resistance than a weak shield and a thick hull, is too much of a challenge for those who would cackle with glee over yet another victory over the defenceless?
Come, let's have mercy on the beggars. I must have some refuse left after last night's efforts. I shall send you a million ISK so that you at least won't be without the benefits of an honest day's work even though you clearly haven't seen one yourself.
No need to thank me, the table is never so empty that there are no crumbs left for the hungry.
Abulurd ME ME CEO
Note: Corporate Comptroller, please send one million ISK to the account of Tzar'im. Maybe he can buy some gizmo to pretend victory among his friends. For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:29:00 -
[26]
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Sneaky? yes, avoidable? Think so, yes. It often takes a LONG time before the target goes either flashy or the ore landing in my can, indicating that the hauler got the warning and gave it some thought before clicking yes/no.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface I am but a doe-eyed blinking innocent little carebear, I know nothing of the big world you people so smoothly operate in.
Tell me, educate me, if combat is that thing that you so dearly crave, why not just go down into the netherworld of low to nul security where you can maim and slaughter to your heart's content? Is that not what you want? Do you not seek the shrieking-yet-brutally-curtailed howls of pain as the air vents from the compromised space frame into the endless void between the stars?
Do you not crave the spectacular effects of giant ships succumbing to the onslaught of your mighty weapons as their structure buckles under explosion after explosion of the <insert the ammunition type of your preference> that you so generously inflict upon them?
Do you not seek to mull around in the cloud of expanding debris, grasping for that sacred prize of all: loot, SWEET MERCIFUL LOOT!, that you can raise in your hands and display to your brethren while you expel a blood-curdling growl from your lungs as you celebrate your latest fabulous victory against the impossible odds that you overcame so as to make a name for yourself in the New Eden demesne? Is the greater good not the curt nod of acceptance as your peers stand in silent awe, maybe even [yes, praise the light of the very stars!] in jealous contempt, of the glory that you gather as your fearful adversaries whisper your name in silence throughout the galaxy so that it preceeds you as a cloud of quickly expanding toxic gas that steals the very breath from those who have the audacity to oppose you?
Art thou not the master corruptor? Art thou not the scourge of the universe, is there any bounty that can atone for the villainy that you so generously foist upon all who dare take up arms against you?
Is the greatest prize New Eden has to offer not merely a pittance in recognition of that marvellous creature that here stands before us, lamenting the meager contents of a pedestrian container, looking like a stray dog for the puny solace of the equivalent of a half-eaten meal? Are we to believe that our blood is enough to still your great, vast hunger? Was this the goal that you embarked on in your voyage between the stars? Are they synonyms now: pirate, pauper, peon?
Or could it be, perish the thought, that anything that offers more resistance than a weak shield and a thick hull, is too much of a challenge for those who would cackle with glee over yet another victory over the defenceless?
Come, let's have mercy on the beggars. I must have some refuse left after last night's efforts. I shall send you a million ISK so that you at least won't be without the benefits of an honest day's work even though you clearly haven't seen one yourself.
No need to thank me, the table is never so empty that there are no crumbs left for the hungry.
Abulurd ME ME CEO
Note: Corporate Comptroller, please send one million ISK to the account of Tzar'im. Maybe he can buy some gizmo to pretend victory among his friends.
Nice writeup, must admit. Still somehow stating that high sec should be safe/left alone and that 'true' stuff happens in low sec or 0.0 shows that you don't exactly understand EVE.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:57:00 -
[28]
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:59:23 Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:58:01
Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/02/2009 19:31:48 @Gank
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Try it yourself, I have reproduced this bug b4. It DOES not warn you. I lost me a ship this way and petitioned it too. Response was "logs show you stole, nothing odd. But file a bug report if you are sure". So I did. Still in processing. Ppl who wanna try for themselves: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=981128&page=2#44
Reproduced it with the "nearly full cargohold"-trick cause you can't exactly predict lag but I'm guessing it works the same way.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Nice writeup, must admit. Still somehow stating that high sec should be safe/left alone and that 'true' stuff happens in low sec or 0.0 shows that you don't exactly understand EVE.
Empire is never safe and is never 'left alone'
Use a wardec, or suicide ship and achieve the same results. |
Greenbolt
Minmatar The Suicide Kings True Reign
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:32:00 -
[30]
I sense pirate tears. Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
--------------------------------------------------- Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi? |
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