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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.19 12:36:00 -
[1]
Incoming wall of text, you've been warned, TL;DR will be at the bottom.
Ok, I've seen eight pages of whining with a few older players actually chiming in as a voice of reason. Can any of you look past easy skill selection for alts and carefully manufactured characters? New players don't know anything about what skills they might need in the future other than very vague sensations based on skill titles (gunnery sounds important)
Forget the knee jerk reaction about 80k being not enough for a new player. Let's do a breakdown of skillpoint totals for some starter fits shall we? Gallente since its what I'm most familiar with.
A Navitas with a mining fit: - Gallente Frigate II
- Hull Upgrades I
- Navigation I
- Afterburner I
- Shield Operation I
- Engineering I
- Mining I
5,078 SP
An Imicus with an astrometric fit: - Gallente Frigate II
- Hull Upgrades I
- Navigation I
- Afterburner I
- Shield Operation I
- Engineering I
- Astrometrics I
5,578 SP
An Incursus with a level 1 mission fit:
- Gallente Frigate III
- Repair Systems I
- Mechanic I
- Energy Grid Upgrades II
- Engineering II
- Science I
- Navigation I
- Afterburner I
- Small Hybrid Turret I
- Gunnery I
26,070 SP
A PVP tackler Atron: - Gallente Frigate II
- Hull Upgrades I
- Propulsion Jamming I
- Electronics III
- Small Hybrid Turret I
- Gunnery I
- Navigation I
- Afterburner I
34,570 SP
Bump that PVP Atron up to 145,158 SP if you want to use an MWD which should take about three days with the new skill point acceleration. Hell, you could probably do it in two if you knew what you were doing.
I'm frankly embarrassed that CCP Fear has to put up with this crap (I know he's reading since he replied a little while ago.)
TL;DR: You don't need 800k SP to have fun in your first week
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.19 12:45:00 -
[2]
Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.
So... does everybody hate the learning skills?
I didn't mind them, but I'm a masochist who thinks skilling up for future growth is "a neat idea."
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.19 13:00:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Alezra
*stuff*
in pvp, sure that might be enough, mining and exploration too. But missions... mhh I don't think so. 1 on 1 fight with an npc on your first day's with those skills, you could manage it easy but when your doing missions, you got more than 1 and since your beginning you don't really manage the game well at first so those skills are really not enough. You'll need more.
Probably don't need to quote my entire post back, if people wanted to read what I said then they already read it.
I'll admit, I fudged on the level 1 mission frig since its been a while since I've done them. Regardless, even if you added a half dozen other skills and trained everything to level 3 you'd still be within two days of training from account creation.
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.19 20:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Zathi Shaitan "in its very existence"?
You mean "in its very existence".
dict.org is your friend.
Pardon me but... wut?
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.20 01:27:00 -
[5]
I still don't understand this whole "new players play the game with 50k SP" idea comes from. I reran my numbers on a spreadsheet and it actually turns out I way overestimated how much SP is required to use basic T1 fits.
You guys are way overestimating the amount of SP needed to use T1 mods.
For some basic setups I made last night I needed the following skillpoints to fly:
Mining Navitas: 4,578 SP Astrometrics Imicus: 5,078 SP Ratting Incursus: 21,992 SP AB Atron Tackler: 13,078 SP MWD Atron Tackler: 104,338 SP
To be able to fly four of the six racial frigates requires only 2,828 SP To be able to fly ALL of the racial frigates requires only 16,000 SP New players will NOT be forced to use the "noobships" due to the new SP cap To use that MWD Atron Tackler requires two days of training.
To equip a small T1 gun: 500 SP To equip a 1MN AB: 500 SP To fit your first armor tank: 4992 SP
Its not exactly staggering. As has been pointed out, most of the 800k SP that characters were starting with was allocated in one or two level 5 skills. Two rank 1 level 5 skills suck up 512,000 SP. The first week of player experience will NOT be gimped by this, and by several months in they'll already have broken even with their 800k compatriots due to the SP boost.
About the only downside I can see is that it will take about an extra week of skilling to get into your first cruiser, and that's only really an issue for sponsored characters I think.
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.20 01:47:00 -
[6]
Oh, and need I remind you of the skill queue?
New player goes through an hour or two of the tutorial and thinks: "That profession is neat, I should train the skills I need for these modules." New Player queues up a rack of relevant skills, goes to work/school/walk the dog and when they comes back, SHABAM! They get to try all the shiny new stuff that they selected themselves.
Current experience you pick a career that sounds good. You usually discover that you need a slightly different set of skills. You want to run a level 1 mission and you selected artist manufacturer? Low Perception and Willpower? Sorry, come back and try again in five days. Thus leading to multiple character deletions and creations as people try to figure out what the hell their best starting build should be. This is min-maxing and vaguely nonsensical. Makes much more sense for a player to develop their skills as a personal selection from the very beginning with the two attribute respecs. That means only a complete botch up requires a character deletion.
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.20 02:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Alezra To use that MWD Atron Tackler requires two days of training.
Two days that the player is not using playing the game...
That is a grand strategy for retention, have players start the game, and then be unable to play it for two days...
Didn't someone else with access to the Goonswarm wiki point out that it currently takes 21 hours to train into a MWD Tackler?
ZOOOOMG 24 extra hours! OH GOD I CAN'T PVP INSTANTLY UPON ACCOUNT CREATION.
Come to think of it, in WoW (I seem to recall this example being brought up) you can't even do battlegrounds until level 11, and you can't be effective at battlegrounds until 18 or so, which takes anywhere from 6-20 hours of real gameplay time to accomplish. In eve under the new system you can create a new character and configure a skill queue. Within 48 hours whether you're playing, sleeping, smoking or whatever you'll be able to be an effective part of a PVP force (at least as far as the Goons are concerned.)
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.20 02:28:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Alezra on 20/02/2009 02:28:16
Originally by: MotherMoon
remove advanced learning skills
replace +5 implants with +10.
scale prices.
bam those extra 5 points are now isk based instead of time based.
I think that's exactly what they were trying to avoid.
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.20 02:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Goumindong
Atron =/= Rifter
Regarding WoW. WoW is not a pvp game and has an entirely different gameplay and progression mechanic.
So you're saying that the baseline requirement to do pvp in EVE is a Microwarpdrive Rifter?
The only possible way that a new player can sate their thirst for pubbie blood is if they're instantly granted the ability to use a Goonswarm certified fitting upon account creation?
Oh and about the WoW bit, I just threw that out there since some people seem to give a ****. In all honestly I hate WoW, but I think some people would get angry at you for saying it isn't a pvp game
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 06:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Poluketes
Originally by: Gamer4liff You convinced me, people should be able to fly tacklers out of the box. What kind of newbie experience would you envision that both lets people fly the tacklers out of the box, and at the same time maintain independence from seemingly arbitrary (to the new player who doesn't know eve yet) choices in starting characters?
I think I love you. I just hope CCP Fear is still reading this thread too.
My suggestion was to take the new system on Sisi, bump the starting SP from 50k up to 150k (enough for a mwd tackler), slightly lower the newbie-boosted SP/hour rate to compensate, and make the new tutorial missions strongly recommended but optional. Require clicking through 25 screens saying "are you sure you want to skip the tutorial?" and "Eve is a complex game and skipping this puts you at a disadvantage" and "if you suck at this game it'll be your own fault" and "turn back now you moron" but let them do it.
Make it possible to return to the tutorial any time in the first 30 days, in case they go to 0.0, decide it's not for them, and want to try empire instead. If the tutorial missions are giving SP as rewards (not just isk/books), on day 30 give newbies who skipped the tutorial but still subscribed those SP in a lump sum to assign as they like. That would give good little newbies who did their missions and ate their vegetables a head start but not overly punish those who skipped them. It would also be more convenient for old players making alts, so they won't be forced to run missions on a dread alt or something that'll never need the standings.
I'm sure there's other ways to do it but that seemed the simplest given the work that must have gone into the new system. And I do think the new system sounds much better for solo empire newbies. There just needs to be an opt-out for newbies coming for 0.0 pvp.
Signed. I'm willing to compromise on my positions and this is a very reasonable post.
My main concern was that the current character creation system is heavily biased towards older players and new players who are being led through the creation process by older players (namely Goonswarm newbie pilots.) I have nothing against allowing pvp out of the box and allowing players to skip the tutorial. My position, however, is that the grand majority of new players (maybe up to 95%) should spend the first few days doing the tutorial. I also have nothing against the way Goonswarm trains its noobies, but they're the exception to the system and they shouldn't be really catered to at the expense of all the other new players. Regardless, if giving new pilots the ability to fly a 150k SP fleet rifter makes the Goons (and pvp newbies) happy than I'm willing to accept it.
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