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Ragel Tropxe
The Older Gamers Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 12:07:00 -
[1]
time for another go at this
problem - Phoenix and Nags are not effective in capital vs capital engagements due to the speed of Citadel torps. At max range they take over 2.5 minutes to get to the target.
Fix - introduce Capital cruise missiles, change range and ROF of Cit torps
detail - make the same changes to Citadel torps that you made to normal torps (increase ROF, drastically reduce range - down to 40km or so), introduce a new missile - Capital cruise, with 200km range but with much increased speed, slightly less dps than current citadel torps.
The change could be introduced with or without a new module to fire them. It also wouldnt need any changes to the ship graphics as launchers aren't visible anyway
this would make Phoenix's and Naglfars somewhat more desirable to fly in Capital fleets, and provide a balance to Gunnery Dreads.
some form of dev response would , as usual, be much appreciated.
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Oli Robbo
Gallente Galactic Defence Syndicate Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 12:51:00 -
[2]
Yeah while you're at it, make the snipe cerb and post raven's Missiles hit instantly aswell..
You cant have it all ways bud.. with being able to switch out damage types and not having to worry about tracking speeds and optimal ranges as much.. i'd say its a pretty good trade off.
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Ragel Tropxe
The Older Gamers Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 15:43:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Ragel Tropxe on 23/02/2009 15:42:54 I understand what you are saying, but I wonder if you have actually experienced Capital vs Capital fights in a Dread? For it is Capital vs Capital warfare that I am referring to; transversal / tracking is not an issue here as ships tend to be in siege (ie not moving) and if they aren't in siege the changes to explosion velocity just means that the target ship has to move very slowly to mitigate a substantial portion of Citadel torp damage.
The damage choice issue is also a bit of a red herring, most Capitals are pretty much omni-tanked so Phoenix's tend to fire Rift torps as they get a damage bonus to them.
It takes 10 sec (less in a Rev) to swap out short range ammo for long range, it takes 2.5 mins for a Citadel torp to got 150km.
I'm not asking to have my cake and eat it, Im just asking for the Devs to consider giving missile Dreads the same choice as ALL other Dreads have...ie long range lower damage OR short range higher damage. If the model works for sub capital missiles, why doesn't it work for capital size missiles
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n00b alt3
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 16:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Oli Robbo Yeah while you're at it, make the snipe cerb and post raven's Missiles hit instantly aswell..
You cant have it all ways bud.. with being able to switch out damage types and not having to worry about tracking speeds and optimal ranges as much.. i'd say its a pretty good trade off.
correct, being able to switch ammo types completely redeems the phoenix for being absolutely worthless in a fleet fight. All other dreads have a close range and long range weapon system, phoenix has some muddled, useless combo. Currently it is better to fit t2 cruise than cit's for cap on cap.
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Traders Outpost
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:37:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Traders Outpost on 23/02/2009 17:37:01 Then change all turret based weapons to have a flight time, I mean you're shooting over 100K the projectile does not insta-get there... or undo the missile nerf and let the penalty be flight time...
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Ridjeck Thome
The Older Gamers Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 17:41:00 -
[6]
i support this on the basis that it may mean that phoenix/ nagd are better primaries than moros/ revelations....
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:33:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Quesa on 23/02/2009 18:35:32
Originally by: Oli Robbo Yeah while you're at it, make the snipe cerb and post raven's Missiles hit instantly aswell..
You cant have it all ways bud.. with being able to switch out damage types and not having to worry about tracking speeds and optimal ranges as much.. i'd say its a pretty good trade off.
Yes, because dreads are seriously worried about tracking in a cap vs cap battle.
The optimal range argument is a bit thin as well. In todays typical capitol engagement, a primaried dread is dead before the second (sometimes first) volley of torps actually makes it to the target.
You're just copy and pasting arguments from others, think for yourself.
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SuckySycky5dolla
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Posted - 2009.02.23 20:45:00 -
[8]
i think OP has a valid point
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Ryan Powers
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Posted - 2009.02.23 22:15:00 -
[9]
/signed.
Light missiles & rockets. Hvy & hvy assault missiles. Cruise missiles & torpedoes. Why not the same split for dreads?
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.02.24 01:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ryan Powers /signed.
Light missiles & rockets. Hvy & hvy assault missiles. Cruise missiles & torpedoes. Why not the same split for dreads?
Because adding some differences here and there adds spice to the mix? I don't know. But unequality is definitely a bad argument for a change.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
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n00b alt3
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.02.24 03:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Ryan Powers /signed.
Light missiles & rockets. Hvy & hvy assault missiles. Cruise missiles & torpedoes. Why not the same split for dreads?
Because adding some differences here and there adds spice to the mix? I don't know. But unequality is definitely a bad argument for a change.
pheonix is a completely worthless ship. This isn't about making everything the same, this is about making a ship relevant.
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Cynthia Nixon
Altless
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Posted - 2009.02.24 13:00:00 -
[12]
Always awesome when people argue against balance.
The Caldari dread *should* be as useless as possible, you make a good point.
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Snakebloke
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.24 13:03:00 -
[13]
Every Caldari pilot I know cross trains for a Moros/Revelation when training for Dreadnoughts. Me included.
The Phoenix is useless because it takes longer to actually hit a target at 150km than it does for the rest of your fleet to kill it.
It sucks and I think its time for the Phoenix to become useful.
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Nostradamous
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Posted - 2009.02.26 04:13:00 -
[14]
*signed
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Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.26 07:55:00 -
[15]
Personally, I can not stand phoenix's in fleets - they are utterly useless bar shooting pos structures and even then not so hot anymore in modern cap fleets that can easily field 30+ dreads at the drop of a hat.
The problem with missile based capital weapons is two fold 1) they do not adhere to the same balance curve as non-capital missile ships in that you get a short range, high dps missile system (slow velocity) along with a long range, low dps missile system (fast velocity); similarly this also is in the face of turret capitals retaining the same balance curve of having a short range and long range capital turret available to them (i.e: blaster / rails) 2) with the above noted, it is not realistic that the phoenix (or the citadel portion of the naglfar) is combat effective in capital pvp as any targets a phoenix tries to fire upon is either dead before the citadels reach it or the target is so far out of range that phoenix's dont even bother shooting it. the viability of citadels ends beyond 50km which is really the way it should be ASSUMING THERE WAS A CRUISE MISSILE ALTERNATIVE.
I do not fly a phoenix or naglfar so really this does not bother me in the least but for the sake of the caldari pilots out there, the above is my take on the situation and issue.
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Dr Prometheus
Caldari Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:36:00 -
[16]
Give the Phoenix split weapon system + bonus, so both 3 missle slots or 3 turret slots. (or a nice combo) - Dude where is my Charon? - |
Cheekything
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.02.26 10:48:00 -
[17]
Firstly I'd like to point out that Phoenix gets a bonus to kinetic not therm but that's just meh.
However I do like the idea however the effects on smaller signature ships should be dramatically reduced just because :P
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