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James Duar
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.27 16:35:00 -
[1]
It's still a dread - it can still shoot towers. However the trouble is it's inferior to every other dreadnaught, period. Split weapon systems and tanking versatility work well for the Minmatar subcapitals, however with the Naglfar they give no discernible benefit and make it the weakest of the dreadnaughts, with the lowest DPS output.
A dreadnaught essentially does two things: tank, and DPS. Speed is irrelevant - and this is unfortunate since it's kind of the Minmatars "thing". There's no reason the Naglfar should be weak at both of these.
My thoughts on the matter are, to bring the Nag in line with the other dreads it needs a more clearly defined niche - it needs a well defined tanking type, and it needs a well defined weapons system.
Since we have hybrids, missiles and lasers assigned to the other races the Nag's bonuses should be brought in-line with making capital projectiles it's weapon system. This fixes the training time problems and allows its DPS output to be precisely set by the bonuses.
After that, the slot layout can be flipped about to select it's tanking type. Since we have two obvious armor tankers, the Minmatar dread should probably be a shield tanker, and given an appropriate boost to CPU to enable this + additional med slots, at the expense of lows.
All this is generalities since I don't know what the precise changes should be, except that something really should be done so we don't have a clearly "worst" dreadnaught.
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Arous Drephius
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.27 16:38:00 -
[2]
Inline? That would mean they'd have to nerf it's verticalness!
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.02.27 16:49:00 -
[3]
usually i don't get along with "slots! giiiev!" demands but since amarr ended up having the smallest ships after minnies were forced into shield extenders, i say let minnies steal the role of lots'o'lows. at least on split weapon systems. phoon is a good example, nagl and rep fleet scythe just arent (with the latter lacking the drones. bump it up to scimitar's 45m¦ plz, if not 50) - putting the gist back into logistics |
Cadde
Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2009.02.27 16:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Arous Drephius Inline? That would mean they'd have to nerf it's verticalness!
We all know minmatar use duct tape for everything. their gyro broke so they had to duct tape it and now the naglfar suffers from lack of orientation.
However, i agree with the OP, naglfar should be a shield tanker and it should focus on projectiles. We are way too far us the skill ranks to allow for double the skillpoint requirement.
THAT IS UNLESS....
The naglfar is really really nber and the OP just failed to notice... I don't know anything about it myself so i am just trusting what the op is saying here. should it be true then i agree 100%.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Nathan Kundi
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Posted - 2009.02.27 17:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Arous Drephius Inline? That would mean they'd have to nerf it's verticalness!
Actually that makes it the best looking capital ship imo. No matter if its weaker or not, i want one
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James Duar
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.27 17:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cadde
Originally by: Arous Drephius Inline? That would mean they'd have to nerf it's verticalness!
We all know minmatar use duct tape for everything. their gyro broke so they had to duct tape it and now the naglfar suffers from lack of orientation.
However, i agree with the OP, naglfar should be a shield tanker and it should focus on projectiles. We are way too far us the skill ranks to allow for double the skillpoint requirement.
THAT IS UNLESS....
The naglfar is really really nber and the OP just failed to notice... I don't know anything about it myself so i am just trusting what the op is saying here. should it be true then i agree 100%.
The basic problem is the split weapons systems. The Naglfar gains no particular advantages from its drawbacks, whereas the Moros, Phoenix and Revelation all have specific strengths. The Moros can engage smaller targets with drones, the Phoenix has the best burst tank, the Revelation puts out hard DPS.
The Naglfar...doesn't really have any of these. You have to train up two separate weapon trees to absurdly high levels, but at the end it's DPS is bottom of all 3, it's armor tank is nothing to get excited about, it's shield tank is barely cap stable (i.e. the Phoenix can be stable with more DPS, or burst and have even higher DPS) and makes its DPS even worse due to lack of CPU so you need fitting mods.
If I had to pick a specialty for it it would probably be to give it a shield tank by adding some med slots and tweaking its CPU such that it had the highest sustained tank of all dreads to make up for it's low DPS. But I'd also prioritize it's weapons system as projectiles.
It probably needs a lot of things looked as (i.e. more then I can do with EFT right now) in order to find a good match of course since it would be nice not to penalize those players who have trained up both weapons systems.
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Elaron on 27/02/2009 18:03:25 I don't expect CCP to look at the relative strength of the dreads until they do their long-promised revamp of Sovereignty mechanics. If we're lucky we might see that by the end of 2009, but that's uncertain considering that CCP are probably still looking for acceptable game mechanics after the mauling the last couple of ideas they had were given.
Another possibility would be as part of a general ship / system balance drive, but again I don't see one of those coming any time soon as it would be a very labour intensive task with no payback in terms of being usable as a headline feature in an expansion to help drive subscriptions.
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CCP Casqade
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:11:00 -
[8]
We tried, but it was too tall.
Also, moved to Features and Ideas discussion.
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el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:17:00 -
[9]
I love you, CCP.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:30:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Terianna Eri on 27/02/2009 18:29:55
Originally by: CCP Casqade We tried, but it was too tall.
BOOO HISS GET OFF THE STAGE __________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.02.27 19:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CCP Casqade We tried, but it was too tall.
Also, moved to Features and Ideas discussion.
Reported for trolling a decent discussion!
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Valandril
Caldari Isks R Us
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Posted - 2009.02.27 20:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Valandril on 27/02/2009 20:07:53
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Originally by: CCP Casqade We tried, but it was too tall.
Also, moved to Features and Ideas discussion.
Reported for trolling a decent discussion!
Double reported Also i agree that nag needs a role, at this point its worst dread. ---
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.28 01:35:00 -
[13]
no... really no.
maybe 30 years down the track when they have super tools where they can change massive parts of eve with the flick of a button maybe but otherwise no.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Richard Ridddick
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.28 03:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Valandril Edited by: Valandril on 27/02/2009 20:07:53
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Originally by: CCP Casqade We tried, but it was too tall.
Also, moved to Features and Ideas discussion.
Reported for trolling a decent discussion!
Double reported Also i agree that nag needs a role, at this point its worst dread.
reported for signature file size being triple the board limit :¦
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.28 05:44:00 -
[15]
I don't think there is any other ship where so many people can agree that the Naglfar is the worst. And it is not like other classes where you have alternate ship choices. Also the ships role is so specific so in every gang you are ALWAYS the worst.
I have given up that CCP will do anything to fix this obvious (and long standing) imbalance. The fact is, every time CCP sees a thread with the words Naglfar they skip it.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.28 08:59:00 -
[16]
Edited by: James Duar on 28/02/2009 09:00:24 The irony is I only got really interested once I started looking for a role to train my Minmatar alt for after T2 sniping (and Minmatar BS V).
But yeah, essentially the Naglfar sucks and for a Minmatar I'd be better off just training up the missile skilltree and flying a Phoenix.
EDIT: And the point is, it's absurd to have a situation where a whole ship class is just worthless.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.02.28 10:27:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 28/02/2009 10:34:36
Imho the right solution for the Naglfar would be to allow for both armor or shield tank. Right now that's not possiible since CPU is too low. But it should be possible due to Minmatar military doctrine. Perhaps even add a 6th mid slot. Or swap mid and low slots around. It would still be a unique design. That's important, at least for me.
A shield tank would allow for a lot of DPS, since you can theoretically fill the lows with damage mods. But the tank should be weaker than on the Phoenix, because the Naglfar will clearly out-dps it when it fits autocannons. The shield tank fitting should also be extra tight, so that it takes some experience and fiddling around to fully utilize the new cpacities. I suggest 825 CPU and a 6th mid slot. That would make for quite an interesting ship, hopefully.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Takashi X2
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Posted - 2009.03.06 04:22:00 -
[18]
TBH it seems balanced to me but ive only made eft monsters...
Its pretty inline with the rest of the dreads in terms of dps and tank it jsut takes a little more to train for cuz of the split weapons.. the 4 weapon slots really makes up for the split tbh
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2009.03.06 07:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Takashi X2 TBH it seems balanced to me but ive only made eft monsters...
Its pretty inline with the rest of the dreads in terms of dps and tank it jsut takes a little more to train for cuz of the split weapons.. the 4 weapon slots really makes up for the split tbh
not really....
Since you mentioned eft lets plug them into eft and have a look at damage with no dmg mods just guns and drones (all skills lvl 5)
close range moros - 4229 revelation - 3450 naglfar - 3280 pheonix - 2171
long range moros - 3056 revelation - 3052 naglfar - 2684 pheonix - 2171
And that stuff above is about as useful as a picture of baby Jesus on your toast. Doesn't show range (which is why the phoenix sucks up there) or tank or the fact that minmatar are forced to use a long range weapon (citadels) despite minmatar being best at short/mid range, it also doesn't show the fact that even if the nag had 4 XL AC on it couldn't out dps the moros.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Psyflame
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
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Posted - 2009.03.06 18:34:00 -
[20]
Supporting this topic.
Boost it's cpu, give it two more gun hardpoints, and make it 5/7/4 or 5/6/5
Originally by: Typhado3 or the fact that minmatar are forced to use a long range weapon (citadels) despite minmatar being best at short/mid range
This is a good point that is often overlooked. Temporary solution would be just adding gun hardpoints, but maybe adding a new short range missile system is in order also.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.03.06 18:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Psyflame Boost it's cpu, give it two more gun hardpoints, and make it 5/7/4 or 5/6/5
That is too much at once. EVE doesn't need WoW-style balancing where one item goes from inferior to superior. 4 weapon hardpoints with a mixed layout and 6 low slots gives a perfectly wide array of possibilities. Totally Minmatar'ish. I wouldn't change that.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
bettybettybettybetty
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Posted - 2009.03.06 19:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: bettybettybettybetty on 06/03/2009 19:54:50
Originally by: James Duar
Split weapon systems and tanking versatility work well for the Minmatar subcapitals,
No it doesn't.
EDIT: To make the Naglfar good all you have to do is change the gun size from 3500mm to 7500mm. Trust me it'll increase the size of your ***** aswell.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.06 22:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Psyflame Boost it's cpu, give it two more gun hardpoints, and make it 5/7/4 or 5/6/5
That is too much at once. EVE doesn't need WoW-style balancing where one item goes from inferior to superior. 4 weapon hardpoints with a mixed layout and 6 low slots gives a perfectly wide array of possibilities. Totally Minmatar'ish. I wouldn't change that.
says the man with the dreadnought with the best DPS.
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.06 23:04:00 -
[24]
phoenix needs 5th high slot (no additional turret slots) if the nag gets boosted ;)
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.03.08 15:26:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 08/03/2009 15:27:34
Originally by: Sir Substance
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Psyflame Boost it's cpu, give it two more gun hardpoints, and make it 5/7/4 or 5/6/5
That is too much at once. EVE doesn't need WoW-style balancing where one item goes from inferior to superior. 4 weapon hardpoints with a mixed layout and 6 low slots gives a perfectly wide array of possibilities. Totally Minmatar'ish. I wouldn't change that.
says the man with the dreadnought with the best close range DPS.
Nice try, but wrong. I'm Gallente, Amarr and Minmatar trained and currently own no dread.
To be honest I'm very interested in Minmatar ships being on a par with the other races' ships. So you're basically shooting yourself in the foot with such useless provocating comments. But I'm not willing to support any levelling down. There are ways to improve weaker designs without simply making it the same, yet different color.
Btw. I fixed your statement.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Alexander Vallen
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Posted - 2009.03.09 02:33:00 -
[26]
(huh, forum ate my post)
Since the Minmatarr are supposed to be renound for their speed why make the Naglfar more mobile than other dreads in some way? Instead of having to stop when entering seiege mode they're still able to move around. (Though at a reduced rate.)
Another option would be to increase turret tracking per level. If they were able to hold off BS more easily I'm sure that it would make these ships far more valuable.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2009.03.09 03:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Alexander Vallen (huh, forum ate my post)
Since the Minmatarr are supposed to be renound for their speed why make the Naglfar more mobile than other dreads in some way? Instead of having to stop when entering seiege mode they're still able to move around. (Though at a reduced rate.)
Another option would be to increase turret tracking per level. If they were able to hold off BS more easily I'm sure that it would make these ships far more valuable.
While I do like the idea of a nag holding off a few bs's their are a few problems with it.... For starters the seige mode gives major nerfs to tracking which minmatar where already the worst at, to give the minmatar a chance of hitting a moving target you would need to give it something like 100% to tracking while in siege per level and then it could only hit long distance ships leaving itself completely open to close up ships (50km or closer). The second problem is getting a lock on the enemy ship with a max scan res of 50 (with 2 sensor boosters in siege) it will take a long time to lock the enemy and seeing as you can only have 2 locked enemies in siege mode that will be a problem.
I do like the idea behind it and it would give the naglfar a nice role I'm just not seeing it as possible.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
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