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Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2009.02.28 16:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ospie on 28/02/2009 16:53:39 I really think something ought to be done about players who will just knowingly jump their freighter into a hostile system, log the freighter off before they decloak so that after one min the freighter warps off to a safe no matter how many points he has on him.
What makes this even better is that he can then log back in, log off straight away once he's loaded grid and then it'll mean the next time he logs in it'll send him to where he relogged at rather than the gate he originally logged at.
Surely using this repeatedly is a gross missuse of game mechanics. There's one thing which is safeguarding people who have a faulty connection or log into an extremely busy system and desync, another thing entirely is abusing this mechanic to bypass the risks of low sec.
This is directly akin to a login trap which is a reportable / bannable offense as I understand it. It'd be nice to see some sort of response regarding this.
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NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:08:00 -
[2]
Nothing CCP can (or wants) do. They don't want to punish valid log offs so we are stuck with what we have. ------------------------------------
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Jesum
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:51:00 -
[3]
CCP favor the many. "Well why didn't you bring 20 gankageddons to kill it before it warped off?"
Playing solo or in small gangs has always been frowned upon by the devs.
____________ [-..-] Jesum |
Chrome DPS
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Posted - 2009.02.28 21:47:00 -
[4]
Could not agree more Ospie, it is a terrible 'tactic' and it really should be stopped.
As someone else mentioned though, CCP took the stand that they were protecting those who suffered legit disconnects.
Imo, the number of people suffering real disconnects in such circumstances is a tiny number compared to the number of players who employ it as a tactic to save themselves from having gone thru a gate they should not have.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.28 22:45:00 -
[5]
/signed
really shouldn't dissapear when your warp scrambled.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.02.28 23:03:00 -
[6]
Log-off complaint .. again?
There is nothing that can be done about it, unless you have some magical way of guaranteeing the connection stability of all players. I frequently lose connection when entering high-lag areas or situations through no fault of my own .. just the way my internet works, or doesn't work as the case may be.
Log-off/in traps are petition material now? Good show, using out of game applications (Vent/TS) to gain advantage in game should be outlawed if game does not provide a counter.
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Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2009.02.28 23:44:00 -
[7]
What about if it could be shown that he didn't have issues with his connection?
In the case of one freighter who we've attempted to engage a few times now, yet repeatedly fail because of this mechanic abuse, he is still happily bouncing between systems with his rapier flying alt (as if using the web to warp faster trick wasn't enough for him) to make sure we don't drop probes before he attempts to log in again.
This is now the third time that this guy's done this to us (who knows how many times beforehand), if it was just the once then ok, but when it's so frequent there must be something that CCP can do.
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NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:30:00 -
[8]
If you try to make it determine if their connection is still valid, they will just pull the network cable. It's really not that hard to quickly get to the back of a desktop and disconnect it. Or right click on the icon in your system tray and disable your connection. The point is CCP can't distinguish from any of them so therefore they are all legal. Not that I think it's right that they can easily avoid combat but still it's the interwebs that we are working across. ------------------------------------
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.01 01:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Chrome DPS
Imo, the number of people suffering real disconnects in such circumstances is a tiny number compared to the number of players who employ it as a tactic to save themselves from having gone thru a gate they should not have.
but for those of us who do suffer legit disconnects (i get about 3 a day) it would utterly destroy our eve experience to have any sort of penelty. i often get disconnects whenever the mission fight gets fierce, it would make me really sad if, for example, the emergency warp were removed, because i would need to buy a new command ship every time i got a disconnect.
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Erika Bronz
Gallente The Wyld Hunt
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Posted - 2009.03.01 04:40:00 -
[10]
Just a question: Is it really impossible for CCP to tell the difference between player engagement and non-player engagement? If they can, isn't it then possible to create a win/win situation, where emergency warp can not be done in pvp? Make player scramblers, bubbles and all that modified to disrupt even emergency warp? It should be easy to run a detect environment; if modules x, y or z affecting: do not emergency warp. Again, just asking.
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swisher
Caldari Mentis Fidelis Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2009.03.01 04:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Erika Bronz Just a question: Is it really impossible for CCP to tell the difference between player engagement and non-player engagement? If they can, isn't it then possible to create a win/win situation, where emergency warp can not be done in pvp? Make player scramblers, bubbles and all that modified to disrupt even emergency warp? It should be easy to run a detect environment; if modules x, y or z affecting: do not emergency warp. Again, just asking.
no - the disconnect protection should be valid for even pvp.
what they should do is differentiate ctrl+q from actual disconnects. such as when a player presses ctrl+q, it sends a message to the server saying "i just quit the game, if i'm agressed, then i get an agression timer and don't dissapear"
Please resize your sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.03.01 07:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: swisher
Originally by: Erika Bronz Just a question: Is it really impossible for CCP to tell the difference between player engagement and non-player engagement? If they can, isn't it then possible to create a win/win situation, where emergency warp can not be done in pvp? Make player scramblers, bubbles and all that modified to disrupt even emergency warp? It should be easy to run a detect environment; if modules x, y or z affecting: do not emergency warp. Again, just asking.
no - the disconnect protection should be valid for even pvp.
what they should do is differentiate ctrl+q from actual disconnects. such as when a player presses ctrl+q, it sends a message to the server saying "i just quit the game, if i'm agressed, then i get an agression timer and don't dissapear"
Then people will use the task manager, end task, unplugging network cable...etc. The key is that you can't stop someone from disconnecting or exiting the game if they are determined enough not to loose their ship. ------------------------------------
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2009.03.01 08:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Erika Bronz Just a question: Is it really impossible for CCP to tell the difference between player engagement and non-player engagement? If they can, isn't it then possible to create a win/win situation, where emergency warp can not be done in pvp? Make player scramblers, bubbles and all that modified to disrupt even emergency warp? It should be easy to run a detect environment; if modules x, y or z affecting: do not emergency warp. Again, just asking.
this tbh
if a player is warp scrambling you log off shouldn't help. if it was a honest disco tough luck eve is a harsh world...... or at least it's supposed to be.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.01 09:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: swisher
Originally by: Erika Bronz Just a question: Is it really impossible for CCP to tell the difference between player engagement and non-player engagement? If they can, isn't it then possible to create a win/win situation, where emergency warp can not be done in pvp? Make player scramblers, bubbles and all that modified to disrupt even emergency warp? It should be easy to run a detect environment; if modules x, y or z affecting: do not emergency warp. Again, just asking.
no - the disconnect protection should be valid for even pvp.
what they should do is differentiate ctrl+q from actual disconnects. such as when a player presses ctrl+q, it sends a message to the server saying "i just quit the game, if i'm agressed, then i get an agression timer and don't dissapear"
Then people will use the task manager, end task, unplugging network cable...etc. The key is that you can't stop someone from disconnecting or exiting the game if they are determined enough not to loose their ship.
unplugging network cable might work, but the task manager doesn't, not even with end process. i know because i tried using that in D2 after getting an imbued item that was ****, and when i reloaded the game, it was still saved after the imbue. clearly there is a way to make it detect.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.01 09:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Erika Bronz Just a question: Is it really impossible for CCP to tell the difference between player engagement and non-player engagement? If they can, isn't it then possible to create a win/win situation, where emergency warp can not be done in pvp? Make player scramblers, bubbles and all that modified to disrupt even emergency warp? It should be easy to run a detect environment; if modules x, y or z affecting: do not emergency warp. Again, just asking.
this tbh
if a player is warp scrambling you log off shouldn't help. if it was a honest disco tough luck eve is a harsh world...... or at least it's supposed to be.
but then its unequal. you say its unfair that people with hundreds of dollars to spend on illegal isk can easily afford dreads, and own at PvP.
well, i say its unfair that the person who has money to spend on a high bandwidth connection that never drops out can beat other people easily, just because they cant afford to have a satellite dish put on their roof so they can also get as stable a connection.
do you see the problem?
under your system of "tough luck", external factors like IRL monetary income determine in game conflicts. this is wrong.
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Erika Bronz
Gallente The Wyld Hunt
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Posted - 2009.03.01 10:14:00 -
[16]
Don't go to pvp areas if you don't want to lose your ship. You're never anything but a big flashy magnet for a cut-throat behavior. Your ship is already lost, you just haven't experienced it yet. Disconnect shouldn't matter in pvp. That's my humble opinion.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.01 10:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: NightF0x Nothing CCP can (or wants) do. They don't want to punish valid log offs so we are stuck with what we have.
Bull****. If you don't have a stable connection, don't pvp. CCP is anti exploit on every single other issue. Why is this one ignored.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:10:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 01/03/2009 11:11:34 Just remove emergency warp for anyone who either is aggressed or who has aggression against someone. Apply it to PvP aggression mechanics only. It doesn't punish legitimate disconnects because I mean really, hitting "undock" means your ship is no longer safe, regardless of what you intend to do with it.
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zaqq
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:53:00 -
[19]
awwww is teh poor greefy weefy's not gettin their fixy wixy den. bless lol in a world so full of smart asses, why is the world goin to pot ? |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: zaqq awwww is teh poor greefy weefy's not gettin their fixy wixy den. bless lol
Since when is gate camping and piracy in low sec griefing?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.03.01 15:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Erika Bronz Just a question: Is it really impossible for CCP to tell the difference between player engagement and non-player engagement?
And what about people like who do not run missions 24/7 but haul stuff around as well?
My disconnects usually happen when the server/client communication spikes, like jumping gate with ships on other side (ie. grid loads). Where is the rationale behind penalising me and my ilk? CCP can't even see legitimate de-syncs in their logs, asking them to differentiate between player/npc activated mods on the fly is a little too optimistic.
There are people who abuse the mechanic just like every other mechanic in game, that's what Eve does to a person. This is already a game with some of the harshest penalties in existence, creating artificially higher penalties for everyone in order to stop mechanics abuse done by a fraction of a fraction of the players is neither here nor there.
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NightF0x
Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.03.01 18:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And what about people like who do not run missions 24/7 but haul stuff around as well?
My disconnects usually happen when the server/client communication spikes, like jumping gate with ships on other side (ie. grid loads). Where is the rationale behind penalising me and my ilk? CCP can't even see legitimate de-syncs in their logs, asking them to differentiate between player/npc activated mods on the fly is a little too optimistic.
There are people who abuse the mechanic just like every other mechanic in game, that's what Eve does to a person. This is already a game with some of the harshest penalties in existence, creating artificially higher penalties for everyone in order to stop mechanics abuse done by a fraction of a fraction of the players is neither here nor there.
agreed ------------------------------------
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.03.01 23:35:00 -
[23]
the griefers are the best at crying, no surprise
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.03.01 23:48:00 -
[24]
Quote: but then its unequal. you say its unfair that people with hundreds of dollars to spend on illegal isk can easily afford dreads, and own at PvP.
well, i say its unfair that the person who has money to spend on a high bandwidth connection that never drops out can beat other people easily, just because they cant afford to have a satellite dish put on their roof so they can also get as stable a connection.
do you see the problem?
under your system of "tough luck", external factors like IRL monetary income determine in game conflicts. this is wrong.
Following your logic, being able to purchase GTCs should also be stopped. I don't see this happening. Also, a stable connection doesn't need to be an expensive connection: Simply get a decent ISP and it won't be a problem. If you do suffer constant disconnects, you should file a petition to CCP over it and you should get in touch with your ISP about it. Both will be able to help you diagnose and remedy the problem. ---
Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
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Morvyn
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 01:42:00 -
[25]
There's really no way to prevent this (and tbqh CCP -shouldn't- remove the current log-off mechanics) BUT...
Why in the hell does the ship still warp off even if it's warp-scrambled ?! THAT needs to be changed. If you're pointed then no warping for you - shouldn't matter if you log or whatever.
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Erika Bronz
Gallente The Wyld Hunt
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Posted - 2009.03.02 07:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And what about people like who do not run missions 24/7 but haul stuff around as well?
My disconnects usually happen when the server/client communication spikes, like jumping gate with ships on other side (ie. grid loads). Where is the rationale behind penalising me and my ilk? CCP can't even see legitimate de-syncs in their logs, asking them to differentiate between player/npc activated mods on the fly is a little too optimistic.
There are people who abuse the mechanic just like every other mechanic in game, that's what Eve does to a person. This is already a game with some of the harshest penalties in existence, creating artificially higher penalties for everyone in order to stop mechanics abuse done by a fraction of a fraction of the players is neither here nor there.
Honestly, if you warp or jump into some kind of player warp scramble, it's your own fault. Un-/conveniently disconnecting or not. If they got more points on you than you can warp out of, you should not be able to emergency warp. This is really no trouble. You should use a scout to avoid camps if you are afraid to lose your ship. Your desync wouldn't really matter, as information would also be sent by the other player. I'm not a programmer, but I don't see why it can't work like that. I don't care what happens in missions. NPC's are not affected by any means of this. They just spawn and respawn. Other players are really affected by this. What's the point even using scramblers, deployed or moduled, if anyone can just dc-warp away? It's not *poff* the magic dragon we're playing, is it?
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.02 08:26:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Erika Bronz Honestly, if you warp or jump into some kind of player warp scramble, it's your own fault. Un-/conveniently disconnecting or not. If they got more points on you than you can warp out of, you should not be able to emergency warp. This is really no trouble. You should use a scout to avoid camps if you are afraid to lose your ship. Your desync wouldn't really matter, as information would also be sent by the other player. I'm not a programmer, but I don't see why it can't work like that. I don't care what happens in missions. NPC's are not affected by any means of this. They just spawn and respawn. Other players are really affected by this. What's the point even using scramblers, deployed or moduled, if anyone can just dc-warp away? It's not *poff* the magic dragon we're playing, is it?
This exactly. If yer in a bubble or pointed you should be fair game, dc or not.
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Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2009.03.02 10:40:00 -
[28]
First and foremost, the same freighter pilot who instigated this thread lost his carrier when he triaged it off our home station, seems kharma's a female dog :P
[ 2009.03.01 05:04:08 ] D > pxf carrier taking damage in yong stantion [ 2009.03.01 05:04:36 ] D > will not survive the triage cycle [ 2009.03.01 05:05:11 ] A > What is an unsupported carrier doing in Yong!? [ 2009.03.01 05:05:31 ] O > dying, aparently [ 2009.03.01 05:06:49 ] M > 24 reds in yong, blue carrier down. several red caps.
Music to my ears from the citadel channel :)
Quote: this tbh if a player is warp scrambling you log off shouldn't help. if it was a honest disco tough luck eve is a harsh world...... or at least it's supposed to be.
Quote: If yer in a bubble or pointed you should be fair game, dc or not.
If you weren't disconnected you'd be dead anyway, if you were disconnected then... logic says you'd be dead too, there shouldn't be a free pass out of a lose-lose situation. Interesting thing though, just a couple of weeks ago a CVA carrier aggressed us on a station, he got disconnected - we weren't engaging him since he was in dock range and we were dealing with other targets, we probed out his spot and started shooting him, he logged back in and it warped him back to the station with 4+ points on him. Kind of annoying..
Quote: Don't go to pvp areas if you don't want to lose your ship. You're never anything but a big flashy magnet for a cut-throat behavior. Your ship is already lost, you just haven't experienced it yet. Disconnect shouldn't matter in pvp. That's my humble opinion.
Exactly, every ship I buy I expect to die, if it doesn't then hey, all the better for me. Another thing entirely is someone running a freighter through hostile space and into a gatecamp which he knew about and abusing mechanics multiple times to happy safe boat everywhere.
Quote: but then its unequal. you say its unfair that people with hundreds of dollars to spend on illegal isk can easily afford dreads, and own at PvP. well, i say its unfair that the person who has money to spend on a high bandwidth connection that never drops out can beat other people easily, just because they cant afford to have a satellite dish put on their roof so they can also get as stable a connection.
At least there's something that can generally be done about a poor connection. That said over the past week my net's been capped and since I don't want to pay out more money I'm just playing on the 56k equivilant connection which my connection's been reduces to. Even with that connection I'm still able to avoid camps / catch people on gates / generally play the game with not one but TWO clients whilst running vent at the same time. Don't try to bring up the "you obviously live next to the server" because I don't, I live in NZ which is about as far away from the server as it gets. So 56k connection + otherside of the world and I still play fine, if your connection's still bad you're doing something wrong (i.e. BAD computer or bad ISP, in the case of the former, get a better computer, in the case of the later contact your ISP). Anyway, as far as buying isk goes.. GTCs, enough said there.
Quote: My disconnects usually happen when the server/client communication spikes, like jumping gate with ships on other side (ie. grid loads). Where is the rationale behind penalising me and my ilk?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you hadn't been disconnected then wouldn't those players have caught you anyway? Perhaps there is something which you can do about your disconnecting issues (i.e. contact ISP, see if your room mate is downloading 10gb of**** in the background whilst you're playing, check your computer for viruses / upgrade your computer).
Quote: awwww is teh poor greefy weefy's not gettin their fixy wixy den. bless lol
Quote: the griefers are the best at crying, no surprise Laughing
Isn't being a troll a poor attempt at griefing? Next.
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Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2009.03.02 11:09:00 -
[29]
Quote: Honestly, if you warp or jump into some kind of player warp scramble, it's your own fault. Un-/conveniently disconnecting or not. If they got more points on you than you can warp out of, you should not be able to emergency warp. This is really no trouble. You should use a scout to avoid camps if you are afraid to lose your ship. Your desync wouldn't really matter, as information would also be sent by the other player. I'm not a programmer, but I don't see why it can't work like that. I don't care what happens in missions. NPC's are not affected by any means of this. They just spawn and respawn. Other players are really affected by this. What's the point even using scramblers, deployed or moduled, if anyone can just dc-warp away? It's not *poff* the magic dragon we're playing, is it?
Quoted, because this deserves to be said again.
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Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.02 11:47:00 -
[30]
Some of the posters here misunderstand the mechanics or are confusing two of them. Those who want logging/disconnecting changed do not want to remove emergency warp from the game. Ships should warp off *if able* when you disconnect.
What people want changed is the "infini-stab" effect of disconnecting/logging before being agressed. If you disconnect/log before being agressed (such as while holding cloak after jumping into a system you stupidly did not scout) and are then tackled (even by a hictor with "infini-point" active) you will disappear unless killed in a very short window. On a fragile ship that's easy, but on a larger ship like an Orca, freighter or even a buffer-tanked BS that can be difficult.
Isn't Eve supposed to punish stupidity and laziness? It seems that regrettably the answer to everything these days is "bring a bigger blob next time," regardless of the pvp-related mechanic being discussed. What is the actual risk of lowsec for a freighter pilot if it requires such a massive gang to even have a chance of beating the clock? I would suggest that a defenseless, expensive ship that often carries mass quantities of valuables should have to use some method of intelligence gathering before blindly traveling into unsafe space. Is that really so unreasonable?
Currently, if you are agressed and THEN log off you do not warp off. Why the difference? This contradiction only benefits those with "incredible luck" to disconnect every time they jump into a hostile camp. Removing it shouldn't matter to mission runners in 99.9% of situations because if they are fighting rats with scramblers they would be agressed anyway.
I would argue that the balance between protecting people with poor connections and allowing a broadly-used exploit to persist is currently out of whack. I can't really see many people dieing in ways that they don't deserve if being pointed stopped you from escaping. On the other hand, it adds risk back into the game for a number of people who are benefiting from an unintended side-effect of a mechanic never intended to affect this particular situation.
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