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Alex ArmStrong
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Posted - 2009.03.01 04:19:00 -
[1]
Skill training for the black opps is a pain. i think after all that training you should be able to use the cover jump portal generator to jump 2ly with out the help of another member. but if you are looking to jump to a member a long way away the corp members need to use the covert cyno field its better for all players and makes the game more fun.
thank you
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.03.01 10:24:00 -
[2]
Black ops are useless at this moment. I would reccomend not to train for them. Unless you need those skills for something else already (like being carrier pilot for example) in what case spending an hour to be able to use that useless-pile-of-junk is ok. You can spin around in station in it.
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Maisonian
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:29:00 -
[3]
I'm sorry to dissagree but these ships are far from useless. They are broken atm (making them DIFFICULT to use) but do not make the mistake of thinking these ships are worthless. Think one corp blockading a system in lowsec to prevent fleets from stealing their unanchoring tower...up goes cov-cyno and recons + indy pop up, ninja the tower and then get thrown back through, making a hell of a lot of ISK for 5 minuites work. Fuel bays would be very useful however, and i wish CCP would fix the use of the COVops cloak - covert ships should ALL be able to use it, especially as there are no 'fitting' limitations for all other cloaks when used on other ships.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.03.01 14:41:00 -
[4]
BO BS certainly do have their uses. Covert Cyno's plus bait fitted recons (who would hesitate to engage a Falcon found flying around by itself) mean that they can be used to score kills that would otherwise have been unobtainable. The problem (aside from their prohibitively short jump range, restricted cargo space and the fact that the Covert Jump Portal is essentially useless) is that for cost vs. effect you can get the same or better results by dropping in Carriers.
Although that sounds stupid a Carrier will most likely end up being cheaper to lose after you factor in insurance, and with a "Gank" fit (3 sensor boosters, tackle kit and DCU's on a Thanny for example) a Carrier will out DPS and outtank any of the BO BS by a country mile.
Still, there are enough pilots out there that swear by their Blackops BS, so I guess they must be doing something right.
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King Amarrian
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Posted - 2009.03.01 16:09:00 -
[5]
Edited by: King Amarrian on 01/03/2009 16:10:15
Originally by: Maisonian I'm sorry to dissagree but these ships are far from useless. They are broken atm (making them DIFFICULT to use) but do not make the mistake of thinking these ships are worthless. Think one corp blockading a system in lowsec to prevent fleets from stealing their unanchoring tower...up goes cov-cyno and recons + indy pop up, ninja the tower and then get thrown back through, making a hell of a lot of ISK for 5 minuites work. Fuel bays would be very useful however, and i wish CCP would fix the use of the COVops cloak - covert ships should ALL be able to use it, especially as there are no 'fitting' limitations for all other cloaks when used on other ships.
Carriers are superior for this, cheaper than a black ops and can do more dps and rep each other as well as carry all the gear needed and resupply corpmates blown up with a new ship. For that role, Black Ops are useless.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.01 16:26:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 01/03/2009 16:27:44
Originally by: King Amarrian Edited by: King Amarrian on 01/03/2009 16:10:15
Originally by: Maisonian I'm sorry to dissagree but these ships are far from useless. They are broken atm (making them DIFFICULT to use) but do not make the mistake of thinking these ships are worthless. Think one corp blockading a system in lowsec to prevent fleets from stealing their unanchoring tower...up goes cov-cyno and recons + indy pop up, ninja the tower and then get thrown back through, making a hell of a lot of ISK for 5 minuites work. Fuel bays would be very useful however, and i wish CCP would fix the use of the COVops cloak - covert ships should ALL be able to use it, especially as there are no 'fitting' limitations for all other cloaks when used on other ships.
Carriers are superior for this, cheaper than a black ops and can do more dps and rep each other as well as carry all the gear needed and resupply corpmates blown up with a new ship. For that role, Black Ops are useless.
You kinda sorta forgot that normal cynos show up on the overview and BO cynos do not. Add to that the fact that BO's are more agile and can easier do damage at range (sniper BO ftw) AND then can warp from cloaking (not while cloaking but they don't get a speed penalty). In other words they are IDEAL for 'undercover' work. AND they can bring in their own complement of Falcons and other useful recons. Add to that the fact that they can also jump Blockaderunners and all of a sudden you can build a forward base real quickly real safely.
Sometimes the best defense is not being seen, ninja style.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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King Amarrian
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Posted - 2009.03.01 18:25:00 -
[7]
Edited by: King Amarrian on 01/03/2009 18:26:10
Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 01/03/2009 16:27:44
Originally by: King Amarrian Edited by: King Amarrian on 01/03/2009 16:10:15
Originally by: Maisonian I'm sorry to dissagree but these ships are far from useless. They are broken atm (making them DIFFICULT to use) but do not make the mistake of thinking these ships are worthless. Think one corp blockading a system in lowsec to prevent fleets from stealing their unanchoring tower...up goes cov-cyno and recons + indy pop up, ninja the tower and then get thrown back through, making a hell of a lot of ISK for 5 minuites work. Fuel bays would be very useful however, and i wish CCP would fix the use of the COVops cloak - covert ships should ALL be able to use it, especially as there are no 'fitting' limitations for all other cloaks when used on other ships.
Carriers are superior for this, cheaper than a black ops and can do more dps and rep each other as well as carry all the gear needed and resupply corpmates blown up with a new ship. For that role, Black Ops are useless.
You kinda sorta forgot that normal cynos show up on the overview and BO cynos do not. Add to that the fact that BO's are more agile and can easier do damage at range (sniper BO ftw) AND then can warp from cloaking (not while cloaking but they don't get a speed penalty). In other words they are IDEAL for 'undercover' work. AND they can bring in their own complement of Falcons and other useful recons. Add to that the fact that they can also jump Blockaderunners and all of a sudden you can build a forward base real quickly real safely.
Sometimes the best defense is not being seen, ninja style.
Sorry, you only hit noobs with that. Once you are in local, you are seen. End of story. The person setting up a covert cyso is visible in local for a minimum of 60 seconds to find the target and setup a cyno on the grid. Perhaps realistically 2 mins since he finds the target and sets up close by.
By the time the cyno is up. Then local explodes while others jump in. Then add in another 30 seconds minimum for ships to jump in and align (if applicable) and another 30 seconds for the warp animation.
You are looking at 2-3 minutes of being visible in local, by which time the target has logged off or warped out. Thus you are left with the noobs for killing.
I do carrier hotdrops all the time. I want to use Black Ops like you mention but its just not feasable. Sensor booster carrier outclasses black ops in ever way and is a true forward base since we can carry a pile of cov ops/recons/hac's etc in our ships while pvping, and even a spare tower & fuel so we can setup a forward base pos as required.
Black Ops just do not do the role you mention, otherwise myself and other pirates would be using them for hotdrops. "Sometimes the best defense is not being seen, ninja style.". That is your quote and it is only possible via a alt spy in the marks corp. Setup the alt spy to cyno on the mark and give it a scram so the mark cannot warp and you will get a true stealth kill, at the expense of loosing a spy.
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Tazikh Abrek
Ordo Executus
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Posted - 2009.03.01 19:26:00 -
[8]
can black ops warp cloaked?
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Cain Calzon
Caldari Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.01 20:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tazikh Abrek can black ops warp cloaked?
no, u cant fit covert ops cloaks on them.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:31:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 02/03/2009 00:31:35
Originally by: King Amarrian Black Ops just do not do the role you mention, otherwise myself and other pirates would be using them for hotdrops. "Sometimes the best defense is not being seen, ninja style.". That is your quote and it is only possible via a alt spy in the marks corp. Setup the alt spy to cyno on the mark and give it a scram so the mark cannot warp and you will get a true stealth kill, at the expense of loosing a spy.
You're looking at this from an instant agressive/attack POV and for that you are right; dropping caps works much better, but that is NOT what BO's are about. With BO's you bring in specialists with a specific purpose, not a demolition team which shoots laserbeams with their eyes and breathe fire.
First of all, the jump in; have the covops warp to a SS out of scanning range, drop a cyno and WAIT! Wait till the cyno timer is almost up and THEN jump in the BO's and others. This shortens the time between local spike and the cyno ship being able to move/cloak. Sure you could say that he could be probed out but what are the chances of them probing exactly THAT minute after the covops has been in local for a while.
Now you brought in a hauler (which possibly carries a POS or just fuel), recons and a couple of SB's. Again, if you are in a hurry or want instant results there's better options, BO's and other cloaky stuff isn't for that. Also the "that only works against people who aren't paying attention", that kinda goes for everything :P
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Carniflex
Caldari Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.02 09:45:00 -
[11]
Yes. In theory and in perfect world they have their uses. In practice their jump range / fuel consumption / price characteristiks make them outclassed by carriers in every practical cenario.
4.5 ly is not adequate range in practice with some very special exceptions (Torrinos - > Mordus/sisters sov and few other locations). If you are in that location - more power to you. If not - can't jump to cyno jammed system and with that jump range you don't find 'open' spot.
Add there that in any practical setup you are bridging up to 2 recons (and need to refuel to jump yourself), and that losing insured carrier will cost you same as losing black ops and you get the picture ...
Or in other words 'Black ops are useless'. In combat they are outclassed by their T1 conterparts and in jumping by capitals.
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Sja Vandr
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:29:00 -
[12]
They should cost 150 mil, not frikkin 500+
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Carniflex Yes. In theory and in perfect world they have their uses. In practice their jump range / fuel consumption / price characteristiks make them outclassed by carriers in every practical cenario.
4.5 ly is not adequate range in practice with some very special exceptions (Torrinos - > Mordus/sisters sov and few other locations). If you are in that location - more power to you. If not - can't jump to cyno jammed system and with that jump range you don't find 'open' spot.
Add there that in any practical setup you are bridging up to 2 recons (and need to refuel to jump yourself), and that losing insured carrier will cost you same as losing black ops and you get the picture ...
Or in other words 'Black ops are useless'. In combat they are outclassed by their T1 conterparts and in jumping by capitals.
That is a stats issue, not a tactical problem and those stats are being worked on. There is nothing wrong with the initial role/tactics a BO is meant for, one shouldn't look at them as high dps, high profile attack ships that actually do damage. Personally I would like to see them get a range bonus so they could be used more as a sniper but I'm guessing that would make them too OP for the job.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Carniflex
Caldari Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
That is a stats issue, not a tactical problem and those stats are being worked on. There is nothing wrong with the initial role/tactics a BO is meant for, one shouldn't look at them as high dps, high profile attack ships that actually do damage. Personally I would like to see them get a range bonus so they could be used more as a sniper but I'm guessing that would make them too OP for the job.
Yes. There is many things that can be done to make them 'worth it' - many of them mentioned by dev's as things that will come (like separate fuel bays for all jump capable ships). However I would not hold my breath over it. They promised to 'fix' copy slots in POS for alliance use also few years ago and 'look at' motherships when changes to game made them giant paperweights they still are today - it's just that some things will not make it to the top of the priority list for some years.
Not trying to sounds overly negative - just stating that training for them right now (unless it's small small sidestep for you - like if you would be already carrier pilot) might be somewhat premature and one might end up waiting for long while for the changes (that will happen one day .. just with ambulation and another big patch scheduled for the summer and winter ... )
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:47:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Rajere on 02/03/2009 17:48:16
Quote: Sorry, you only hit noobs with that. Once you are in local, you are seen. End of story. The person setting up a covert cyso is visible in local for a minimum of 60 seconds to find the target and setup a cyno on the grid. Perhaps realistically 2 mins since he finds the target and sets up close by.
By the time the cyno is up. Then local explodes while others jump in. Then add in another 30 seconds minimum for ships to jump in and align (if applicable) and another 30 seconds for the warp animation.
You are looking at 2-3 minutes of being visible in local, by which time the target has logged off or warped out. Thus you are left with the noobs for killing.
I do carrier hotdrops all the time. I want to use Black Ops like you mention but its just not feasable. Sensor booster carrier outclasses black ops in ever way and is a true forward base since we can carry a pile of cov ops/recons/hac's etc in our ships while pvping, and even a spare tower & fuel so we can setup a forward base pos as required.
Black Ops just do not do the role you mention, otherwise myself and other pirates would be using them for hotdrops. "Sometimes the best defense is not being seen, ninja style.". That is your quote and it is only possible via a alt spy in the marks corp. Setup the alt spy to cyno on the mark and give it a scram so the mark cannot warp and you will get a true stealth kill, at the expense of loosing a spy.
I don't think you understand the definition of "hotdrop." Once you are in local you have the target tackled and are in the process of killing him. Anything sub-capital dies in < 60 seconds. Freighters take about 1min20sec and Jump Freighters take 2 minutes. Any other capital it's better to hotdrop caps, obviously.
-------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S |
Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.03.02 18:04:00 -
[16]
The best setup for a black ops drop is a two man scout team -- Arazu for tackle, Cov Ops for Cyno. Arazu finds target, sits and waits. Arazu tackles while cov ops sets cyno. Arazu just has to live long enough for his friends to get in on the action -- 1600mm plate helps -- and it doesnt take several minutes to execute
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.03.02 18:24:00 -
[17]
Or you could just pop the covert cyno from the arazu, 30sec cyno is far better than a 60sec one. You can use a cov ops as a cyno but only if it's absolutely necessary and the kill is worth it, you'll lose the covops every time. For your recons, You need far more than just a 1600 plate, our bait recons have 60-70k EHP. Of course they're also expected to tackle and tank anything, anywhere; from CNRs in belts/missions/plexes to carriers outside the shields of deathstar POSes. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S |
Tazikh Abrek
Ordo Executus
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Posted - 2009.03.02 18:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cain Calzon
Originally by: Tazikh Abrek can black ops warp cloaked?
no, u cant fit covert ops cloaks on them.
that's hugely disappointing :(
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Carniflex
Caldari Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.03 06:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Trebor Notlimah The best setup for a black ops drop is a two man scout team -- Arazu for tackle, Cov Ops for Cyno. Arazu finds target, sits and waits. Arazu tackles while cov ops sets cyno. Arazu just has to live long enough for his friends to get in on the action -- 1600mm plate helps -- and it doesnt take several minutes to execute
And why would you drop in there a black ops if you can drop a carrier instead. You would be risking same amount of isk afterall if things go bad - not to mention that if system is jammed then neither of those ships will jump there and with black ops max 4.5 ly range (approx 5 to 10 jumps thru regular gates in most locations) you must have pretty perfect conditions in the 'what if ...' style while carriers range in most cases will cover region and a half. Lock speed difference is not THAT huge for 3 sensor booster gank carrier and black ops.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2009.03.03 13:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rajere Or you could just pop the covert cyno from the arazu, 30sec cyno is far better than a 60sec one. You can use a cov ops as a cyno but only if it's absolutely necessary and the kill is worth it, you'll lose the covops every time. For your recons, You need far more than just a 1600 plate, our bait recons have 60-70k EHP. Of course they're also expected to tackle and tank anything, anywhere; from CNRs in belts/missions/plexes to carriers outside the shields of deathstar POSes.
Used a covert op two times, somewhow it survived each time
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Zukira Al'Kalish
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Posted - 2009.03.04 20:41:00 -
[21]
Don't Black Ops ships have a few more options of usage with the addition of Blockade Runners to the "Cov-Ops" fleet?
I mean... now that you can bring a tonne of Blockade Runners with you, wouldn't one be able to run covert cargo delivery operations for POSs under seige?
Just a thought. I'm not experienced at all in low-sec/null-sec operations, but it seems like an ever-so-remote possibility to me. Not sure if said services would be desirable or even practical (I mean, hell, fuel consumption alone may still render that an impossibility)... but it's a thought.
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Sissy Fuzz
Amarr Sissy Fuzz Communications
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Posted - 2009.03.09 09:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: fkingfurious BO BS certainly do have their uses. Covert Cyno's plus bait fitted recons (who would hesitate to engage a Falcon found flying around by itself) mean that they can be used to score kills that would otherwise have been unobtainable.
"Score kills"?
... oh, like in "High Score"? Awesome.
Sissy Fuzz The cutest n00b evarh
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Walker Bulldog
Minmatar VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2009.03.09 09:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zukira Al'Kalish I mean... now that you can bring a tonne of Blockade Runners with you, wouldn't one be able to run covert cargo delivery operations for POSs under seige
A blockade runner can, by itself, get wherever a covop/recon can, and you need to bring in the covop/recon to the system for the cyno anyway. Besides, it would take a really big gate camp (to the point of nearly saturating the jump-in sphere) to stop a blockade runner getting through.
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IHeartYou
Darkwave Technologies Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:01:00 -
[24]
There's a reason it's called black ops. Doing covert operations is possible with a black ops and like a previous poster said: Getting successful ganks that are otherwise hard to get.
As for cynoing in carriers for a gank... Well sometimes it's not possible. Cynoin in 2-3 carriers is hostile 0.0(not a bunch of carebears but someone who could drop dreads on you for example) is a WHOLE lot riskyer then cynoing in a bunch of recons that can just cloak up, not to mention immediately warp off if something would happen. A carrier doesn't really have 0 sec aligntime nor can it immediately cyno out after cynoing in.
Expensive toy.. yes. Have an extremely specific use... yes. Bit too specific but some amazing ganks sure can be arranged with this toy. Used right you definately can suprise poeple with it.
Tri used it once against my fleet when I were in pure., they had a 10-15man nano gang that baited a defense fleet then they jumped in another 20ish recons on top of us. Just as an example.
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Psi Draconis
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Carniflex Black ops are useless at this moment. I would reccomend not to train for them. Unless you need those skills for something else already (like being carrier pilot for example) in what case spending an hour to be able to use that useless-pile-of-junk is ok. You can spin around in station in it.
Dear n00b. Copy catting merin n00b isn't making you to level up from Forum Warrior I.
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Birkinz
Caldari Vectra Source Partnership
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Posted - 2009.03.09 14:04:00 -
[26]
Can someone please explain what the effect of the covert ops cyno is on the ship that opens it.
For example if you are using an arazu to tackle and you then open the cyno, can the arazu carry on tackling, fighting etc?
I remember reading somewhere about cynos paralyzing the ship that opens it?
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Forumz Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.09 14:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Birkinz Can someone please explain what the effect of the covert ops cyno is on the ship that opens it.
For example if you are using an arazu to tackle and you then open the cyno, can the arazu carry on tackling, fighting etc?
I remember reading somewhere about cynos paralyzing the ship that opens it?
Ship can't move, cloak or warp for the duration of the cyno. All other modules (guns, tanks, reps, etc.) still work for the duration.
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Birkinz
Caldari Vectra Source Partnership
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Posted - 2009.03.09 14:24:00 -
[28]
Ok, many thanks.
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