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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:39:00 -
[1]
After far too many years without updates I found time to update the original guide. The full guide link will be edited in here when I have found a host. The full guide will contain history of passive tanks, ship setups, and expanded information on passive tanking. If you have any good setups that you want adding to the guide please see post 3.
===Quick Facts=== Definition of passive tanking. To have a defence method thatĘs on 23/7 without having activated modules to heal. This mean no active hitpoint regen models like amour repairers or shield boosters. If you have a passive tank setup with activated modules for healing it's a hybrid setup.
There are 3 sub methods of passive tanking although the line between the first two has blurred over the years.
1) Focus on a sustainable DPS tank with resistance and hitpoint regeneration either buy boosting hitpoints and/or speeding up shield recharge. 2) Focus on maximising the hitpoint pool which normally consists of a mix of boosting hitpoints and boosting resistance to create a large hitpoint pool as a buffer. 3) Cap immune ships. Can be a mix of 1 and 2 but must not use modules that drain cap. Normally they fit passive hardeners and use a weapon system that does not use cap. Note: hitpoint/resistance based amour tanks are a passive tank. There are no category 1 passive amour tanks.
===Formulas=== In short the smaller your shields get the faster they regenerate until you hit 30% then the speed drops. To work out peak regen
Peak regen (shield cap / shield recharge rate)*2.5=x Average region medium to long battle (shield cap / shield recharge rate)*2.2=x Average region short to medium battle (shield cap / shield recharge rate)*2.0=x
x is your hitpoint regeneration at peak regen which is at 30% shield strength, 20 to 50% shield strength are strong areas, 0 to 15% and 90%+ are very slow.
Some people use 2.4 to be extra safe. The real number is between 2.4 and 2.5 but closer to 2.5. If the enemy cannot break your tank for a long battle use 2.5 instead of 2.0.
Tankable DPS To work out tankable DPS using two resistance types look at the Italic line and replace A with Hitpoint regen, B with resistance, C with resistance. Copy and paste Italic line into windows calculator and press equalĘs. Alternatively just load up EFT and set it to two resistance types.
2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))=xxx dps To work out DPS tankable with one resistance type, replace B and C with the same number.
To work out tankable DPS using 4 resistance types. Copy and paste Italic line into windows calculator and press equalĘs and use B, C, D, E as your resistance. From March 10th 2009 you can use the new fitting screen from Eve. 4*A/((1-0B)+(1-0.C)+(1-0.D)+(1-0.E))=
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:39:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Pottsey on 01/03/2009 11:42:38 -Passive tanks can use active modules. There is no point wasting cap, unless you need to be cap drain immune think about active hardeners. -ItĘs a myth battleships cannot passive tank well. Not all of them can but many make good passive tanks. -Do not Overtank. Just because you can use up all your slots doesnĘt mean you should. Think about fitting a target painter, damage mods or other useful modules. For level 4 missions I like to aim for a 650dps tank sometimes 350dps if I can get my damage output high enough. -The first HP regen passive tankers where mostly if not all Gallente please donĘt act like it belongs to Caldari and have a go at passive tanking Gallente pilots. Caldari didnĘt join in the fun until years after Gallente had been passive tanking. Interesting note: Caldari ships tend to have higher resistance and higher hitpoints, while Gallante ships tend to get higher HP regen with lower resistance. http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=679&tid=5-If PG or cap is a problem donĘt forget about replacing 1 or 2 Shield Power Relays with Power Diagnostic System -Never, ever, not even if your drunk on Jove wine fit shield flux modules for combat. There is no excuse to use these in combat, they are always bad. (Not as true now with T2 Flux modules but still pretty bad as lowering HP regen means you're more likely to go under the 30% peak point in one hit) -For PvP consider using PDS and energy neats over Nos. 1 Neat module drain 2.5 times more 1 Nos module and you can knock the enemy down to 0% cap unlike Nos. -DonĘt overlook the hitpoint pool with resistance over HP regen. 30k Hitpoints with 50% resistance means without factoring in regen you can tank 45k worth of damage. I often use the hitpoint pool to kill rats so by the time I hit 30% shields the rats DPS is less then my tankable DPS. -The Original passive tank thread from all those years back http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=131367
==Jargon== SPR= Shield Power Relay. The life blood of most passive tanks. PDS = Power Diagnostic System alterative to SPR. These give less HP regenm more hitpoints with no drawbacks and a number of none tanking boosts. Flux = Shield Flux boosts hitpoint regen, lowers hitpoints which in turn lowers hitpoint regen. Very bad. Covo(s)= Opening up a private conversation chat channel in game. Mods= the modules that you fit to your ship slots. Come in various sizeĘs from small to extra large DPS. When talking about weapons refers to damage output per second. When talking about tanking refers to how much damage per second you can take without being killed.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:40:00 -
[3]
Reserved ______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:26:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pottsey on 01/03/2009 12:32:14 ==Jargon== SPR = Shield Power Relay. The life blood of most passive tanks. PDS = Power Diagnostic System alterative to SPR less HP regen but no drawbacks and a number of none tanking boosts. Flux = Shield Flux boosts hitpoint regen, lowers hitpoints which in turn lowers hitpoint regen. Very bad.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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TimMc
Gallente Extradition
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:32:00 -
[5]
Nice resource for newbies, but strange choice of ship to passive tank. Drake, Nighthawk and Rattlesnake are the most popular passive shield tankers because of capless guns (and nice resists on first two).
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welsh wizard
0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:36:00 -
[6]
Gallente boats tend to make the better passive tankers due to their fast shield recharge as Pottsey has covered in detail over the years. The Myrmidon is really good if memory serves, especially as its main weapons system is capless. Same goes for the Dominix. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:37:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Pottsey on 01/03/2009 12:37:49 Back in the day you only really found Gallente ships passive shield tanking. Caldari rarely did it and few Caldari ships could passive tank. Years later when Caldari become popular passive tanks due to some game tweaks I never swapped over to their ships, preferring my railguns with drones.
Pointless fact: The Domi was used as a Shield tank long before amour tanking. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:37:00 -
[8]
i like it! read your guide when i was new also and it was very helpful. you mentioned something about using a 2x multiplier for long fights vs using 2.5x for shorter ones, does HP/s drop over time?
did you ever play earth and beyond pottsey? for some reason i think you might have
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:41:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Pottsey on 01/03/2009 12:44:36 Yes I did play E&B. The multiplier is to represent average regen in shorter and longer fights. You don't sit in the whole fight at peak regen so the multiplier is a rough estimate of your average regen over a fight. If your tank holds don't use the lower numbers stick to 2.5. In PvP I find working out regen with a 2.0 multiplier is far more realistic of what you will see in a fight. the full guide explains this in far mroe deatil.
The full guide explains this in far more detail. I need to neaten up a few things and find a host for the doc.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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TimMc
Gallente Extradition
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: welsh wizard Gallente boats tend to make the better passive tankers due to their fast shield recharge as Pottsey has covered in detail over the years. The Myrmidon is really good if memory serves, especially as its main weapons system is capless. Same goes for the Dominix.
Oh yes, Ishtar is even better.
Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II
high slots with aggro gun and utility or salvagers.
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Drones of choice.
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Shate Def
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2009.03.01 14:06:00 -
[11]
well yes it works but for missions vs serps or gurristas an armor tanked hype tanks better and is easier to fit aswell.
[Hyperion, Missions] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Capacitor Control Circuit I
should work well enough even without rigs and u take a ton less dmg from torps due to the smaller sig radius. shield tanking a rattler, bc's or hacs is very viable tho.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.01 16:25:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pottsey on 01/03/2009 16:26:26 Shate Def the problem with the amour tank setup is you have less damage output and less range and the extra tank is not needed. So you end up better off fitting one meg stab to the shield tank setup and doing missions faster. How is the armor tanker easier to fit if it has to downgrades its weapons? ______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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CCP Mitnal
C C P CCP
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Posted - 2009.03.07 04:11:00 -
[13]
Great guide, perhaps you would like to post this on the EVElopedia, given that it will end up there anyway
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email |
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.07 12:37:00 -
[14]
[Rattlesnake, Lazy man Hybrid/PvE]
High: 6 Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Wrath Cruise 2 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter
Mid: Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Low: Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Rigs: Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Hornet II x5 Vespa II x5
I used something very close to this for lvl 4's before QR and never had any real problems. A month before QR hit I sold the Rattler, my CNR and Raven and went Hybrid Nighthawk.
EHP: 94,481
Defense Efficiency (Omni) of 391
Peak self recharge of 147
Dps 474 / 549 with light Drones / 593 with med Drones.
Cap lasts 15 minutes.
I used a 3% grid implant along with 3% shield regen and shield hp plants. I also have my support shield skills mostly 5's and a couple 4's.
For the harder missions or if your shield skills are still training just drop a BCU for another SPR for 193 regen and 515 Defense Efficiency.
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Sar'ran Zorn
Amarr Trade Nexus
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Posted - 2009.03.08 08:07:00 -
[15]
Is there any plans to nerf passive shield tanks?
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TimMc
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.08 09:54:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sar'ran Zorn Is there any plans to nerf passive shield tanks?
The drake and myrmidon had insane passive tanks, but have been already nerfed a while ago. Recharge time was 1250, changed to 1400.
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Lexa Hellfury
Oedipus Complex
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Posted - 2009.03.08 10:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sar'ran Zorn Is there any plans to nerf passive shield tanks?
Why would you nerf useless ships?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.08 10:30:00 -
[18]
Such passive tanks as the one you showed for the hyperion are the reason there are many people who automatically dislike any passive tank. Sorry but it is a very bad fitting, an armor tank would be better in every way. (and wtf at using navy ammo in a hype for missions). No damage mods = fail.
And except the rattlesnake passive BS tanks are just worse than active tanks. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Everfire
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.03.08 12:51:00 -
[19]
confriming that the ishtar can fit an insane passive tank, especially against serpentis/sansha but still caldari ships are preferable, the nighthawk has a very good passive tank and dps, so if you want to fly a passive tanked ship in missions go for the nighthawk.
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Baron Agamemnon
Caldari Holy Grail Construction
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Posted - 2009.03.08 14:19:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Baron Agamemnon on 08/03/2009 14:19:15 I used to passive tank my Rifter as such:
[Rifter, Passive Rifter] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Medium Shield Extender II
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
This was before I moved over to a faster more agile setup tho, with two nanofibers and a DC II. But I still had good times in it, and it does tank well actually.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.08 16:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pottsey on 08/03/2009 16:32:33 Furb Killer said " Such passive tanks as the one you showed for the hyperion are the reason there are many people who automatically dislike any passive tank. Sorry but it is a very bad fitting, an armor tank would be better in every way. (and wtf at using navy ammo in a hype for missions). No damage mods = fail. " Could you post some setups for comparison? It can fit 1 perhaps 2 damage mods if you're a good pilot and I use navy ammo for the extra damage. I don't see any reason to use normal ammo as it makes the missions go faster. There is no way the armor tank is better in every way, some ways perhaps but not every way.
How can it be a very bad fitting if it works? Very bad fitting don't work.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.08 18:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 08/03/2009 16:32:33 Furb Killer said " Such passive tanks as the one you showed for the hyperion are the reason there are many people who automatically dislike any passive tank. Sorry but it is a very bad fitting, an armor tank would be better in every way. (and wtf at using navy ammo in a hype for missions). No damage mods = fail. " Could you post some setups for comparison? It can fit 1 perhaps 2 damage mods if you're a good pilot and I use navy ammo for the extra damage. I don't see any reason to use normal ammo as it makes the missions go faster. There is no way the armor tank is better in every way, some ways perhaps but not every way.
How can it be a very bad fitting if it works? Very bad fitting don't work.
Very bad fitting can work, just very bad. Thats why it is a very bad fitting. And please use the quote feature of forums, it is their for a reason.
Navy ammo is too expensive for missions, except for laz0rs and some marauders. Not on a BS with 8 hybrid guns.
I would personally never use the following setup myself, since a mega is just better, this has epic lack of tracking, or i would use at least a tracking comp. But because i have to be better in every way: (And i also used navy ammo since you did too) [Hyperion, Mission] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L
Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Capacitor Control Circuit I
-----------------------------------
Fully cap stable. More damage (smaller guns = less range, so i loaded other ammo instead of antimatter), and more range. With AM less range, but even more damage. Tank is also better. Only thing worse is speed. But if you really want you can make that higher too, at the expense of some tank or some cap stability, but still better than yours.
487 dps with 41km optimal, 571dps tanked against serp with that. Also better tracking. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.08 19:26:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Pottsey on 08/03/2009 19:30:22
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.08 19:56:00 -
[24]
That is a very low tank for a passive tank. Passive shield tanks need higher tank than active tanks for the same mission. (An active tank can do fine for quite a while if it gets more dps than it can tank. Passive one rapidly gets killed when through peak recharge).
An armor tanked megathron will be better in every way. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.08 20:14:00 -
[25]
I never had a problem with it. Just don't aggro everything at once and be sensible. Don't overlook the hitpoint tank. I find the hitpoint pool with high resistance is more than enough most of the time. Due to the high damage output you just kill the rats before the hitpoint pool is too low. Then after a few rats are dead you just tank with the 100+ Hitpoint per second regen and high resistance.
I don't like the Megathron the damage is lower when you can engage at range (I dont have missile skills). The Kronos on the other hand now thats a fun ship.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.08 20:35:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 08/03/2009 20:37:07 I dunno Pottsey - I don't doubt that it works, but the DPS on it's a bit low (418 EFT turret DPS). The faction ammo is expensive on a Hype, and you'll be missing too often due to 425 tracking and no speed mod to back it up.
I'd try something like the fit below. It gets more EFT damage at any lockable range than your fit, has more tracking, can distance tank with the AB, gets to gates faster if it's necessary, and comes with a roughly equivalent tank. If you try cutting your fit in any way (such as to add magstabs) you sacrifice huge portions of your tank.
Well, against Guristas anyway. Against Angels, I would definitely replace one of the mag stabs with another hardener/EANM... but in all reality I wouldn't run a Hype against Angels.
[Hyperion, Armor Mission Hype] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
100MN Afterburner II Tracking Computer II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Uranium Charge L
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
-Liang
Ed: Also, Furb, Pottsey's right about the resist/HP buffer thing. It's not entirely uncommon for people to run entire missions without touching their shield booster at all (even on active tanked ships). Even low shield recharge is extremely powerful with high DPS. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.08 20:43:00 -
[27]
Also, I forgot to mention: Good job on the guide, Pottsey. I don't necessarily agree on the shield tanked Hyperion, but I don't doubt it can do the job at least reasonably well. I just get picky about efficiency. ;-)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Shereza
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Posted - 2009.03.08 21:23:00 -
[28]
Honestly, if you're willing to accept tradeoffs and can think outside of the box you can passive shield tank a lot of ships in the game and still do acceptably well.
[Nightmare, New Setup 5 copy 1 copy 1] Shield Flux Coil II Shield Flux Coil II Shield Flux Coil II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Large Shield Extender II
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1
This one, as an example, with my character's skills will pull 718 rDPS and has an estimated Sansha tank of roughly 428 DPS. Without both of the vampires going the build isn't cap-stable, but it will run for 5 minutes with everything going non-stop while using MF crystals and Standard crystals will get me nearly 15 minutes of run time on the lasers. Worst case scenario for this ship would be nothing to use the vampires on resulting in 3 lasers using Standard crystals for 450 rDPS on a build that's still cap-stable.
Swapping out the SFCs can, and will, improve the tank but in the case of this ship you really have to consider the lowered cap regeneration tradeoff, especially if you do a lot of missions where you can't rely on vampires to help pick up the cap. slack. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.08 21:29:00 -
[29]
Quote: Ed: Also, Furb, Pottsey's right about the resist/HP buffer thing. It's not entirely uncommon for people to run entire missions without touching their shield booster at all (even on active tanked ships). Even low shield recharge is extremely powerful with high DPS.
Only problem with this is that you are assuming that hype has a large HP buffer. On the one with 2 magstabs it would only have 1 LSE as entire extra buffer. That isnt much.
And it stays a difference that passive shield tanks only tank their ammount of damage at peak recharge, while active tanks tank all the time a constant ammount of damage. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.09 02:55:00 -
[30]
Furb, the point I was trying to make is that *active* tanked ships don't have to touch their booster... the single LSE+Hardeners is plenty of tank.
Also, Shareeza... any reason you chose shield flux over PDU's?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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