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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.03.01 22:22:00 -
[1]
My purpose is the following:
tomorrow we all are moving to Malkalen (2jumps from Jita) this will be the new trading hub of EVE.
if we all do it together, it will happen (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.01 22:46:00 -
[2]
Have fun in Malkalen!
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.01 23:43:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ms Delerium My purpose is the following:
tomorrow we all are moving to Malkalen (2jumps from Jita) this will be the new trading hub of EVE.
if we all do it together, it will happen (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
It's called Metcalfe's law.
Metcalfe's law characterizes many of the network effects of communication technologies and networks such as the Internet, social networking, and the World Wide Web. It is related to the fact that the number of unique connections in a network of a number of nodes (n) can be expressed mathematically as the triangular number n(n − 1)/2, which is proportional to n2 asymptotically. In simpler terms, the more people in Jita, the more value that Jita has.
The law has often been illustrated using the example of fax machines: a single fax machine is useless, but the value of every fax machine increases with the total number of fax machines in the network, because the total number of people with whom each user may send and receive documents increases.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.01 23:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Ms Delerium My purpose is the following:
tomorrow we all are moving to Malkalen (2jumps from Jita) this will be the new trading hub of EVE.
if we all do it together, it will happen (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
It's called Metcalfe's law.
Metcalfe's law characterizes many of the network effects of communication technologies and networks such as the Internet, social networking, and the World Wide Web. It is related to the fact that the number of unique connections in a network of a number of nodes (n) can be expressed mathematically as the triangular number n(n − 1)/2, which is proportional to n2 asymptotically. In simpler terms, the more people in Jita, the more value that Jita has.
The law has often been illustrated using the example of fax machines: a single fax machine is useless, but the value of every fax machine increases with the total number of fax machines in the network, because the total number of people with whom each user may send and receive documents increases.
So if everyone moved to Malkalen it would be very valuable.
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quygen
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Posted - 2009.03.01 23:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: quygen on 01/03/2009 23:53:20
Originally by: Hexxx
It's called Metcalfe's law.
...stuff...
nice stuff
Edit: yes it would be equally valuable
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hexxx It's called Metcalfe's law.
More generally, and more commonly in economics, it's called a network effect. The general phenomenon and observations of its impact long pre-date Metcalfe.
And apparently Metcalfe's law is wrong, too. It states that 'the value of a telecommunications network is proportional to the square of the number of connected users of the system (n^2)'. Apparently it actually approaches n+log(n) instead: hello Zipf's law!
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Ms Delerium My purpose is the following:
tomorrow we all are moving to Malkalen (2jumps from Jita) this will be the new trading hub of EVE.
if we all do it together, it will happen (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
It's called Metcalfe's law.
Metcalfe's law characterizes many of the network effects of communication technologies and networks such as the Internet, social networking, and the World Wide Web. It is related to the fact that the number of unique connections in a network of a number of nodes (n) can be expressed mathematically as the triangular number n(n − 1)/2, which is proportional to n2 asymptotically. In simpler terms, the more people in Jita, the more value that Jita has.
The law has often been illustrated using the example of fax machines: a single fax machine is useless, but the value of every fax machine increases with the total number of fax machines in the network, because the total number of people with whom each user may send and receive documents increases.
So if everyone moved to Malkalen it would be very valuable.
I'm going to quote laws and games all day....here we go.
The Prisoner's Dilemma constitutes a problem in game theory. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence payoffs and gave it the "Prisoner's Dilemma" name. In its classic form it is framed by the following:
Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated both prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies (defects) for the prosecution against the other and the other remains silent, the betrayer goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?
What the hell does this have to do with people moving away from Jita? Glad you asked.
Two traders are in Jita. One says; let's move to another hub. If both move, they will likely get a similar outcome. If both SAY they'll move but only one does, the one who stays or "betrays" just eliminated one of their competition and may find better profits.
But then again...why knowingly moves somewhere that isn't as profitable as where you are now? Amazingly there are even more game theories at work like how trade hubs are distributed. I'll link a reference later, I need to get ready for work now.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Hexxx It's called Metcalfe's law.
More generally, and more commonly in economics, it's called a network effect. The general phenomenon and observations of its impact long pre-date Metcalfe.
And apparently Metcalfe's law is wrong, too. It states that 'the value of a telecommunications network is proportional to the square of the number of connected users of the system (n^2)'. Apparently it actually approaches n+log(n) instead: hello Zipf's law!
They're essentially synonymous, but Metcalfe's example (the one he gave trying to convince people that ethernet cards were a good idea) was one of the best I've heard and most of us who went through a business school know of it as such.
Logarithmic vs. exponential, bah. Metcalfe's version is a bit more digestible for those haven't had the pleasure of enduring calculus for protracted periods of time. Conceptually, the expressions are very similar but yes...if you wanted to plot this stuff out we'd get two separate answers.
Personally I always thought n^2 was accurate enough for the explanation and it's simple to understand. If the quest for absolute precision obfuscates the intended lesson, then what good does your mathematical anal retentiveness yield?
As an aside, for those who don't know, Metcalfe went on to found 3COM.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.02 00:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Ms Delerium My purpose is the following:
tomorrow we all are moving to Malkalen (2jumps from Jita) this will be the new trading hub of EVE.
if we all do it together, it will happen (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
It's called Metcalfe's law.
Metcalfe's law characterizes many of the network effects of communication technologies and networks such as the Internet, social networking, and the World Wide Web. It is related to the fact that the number of unique connections in a network of a number of nodes (n) can be expressed mathematically as the triangular number n(n − 1)/2, which is proportional to n2 asymptotically. In simpler terms, the more people in Jita, the more value that Jita has.
The law has often been illustrated using the example of fax machines: a single fax machine is useless, but the value of every fax machine increases with the total number of fax machines in the network, because the total number of people with whom each user may send and receive documents increases.
So if everyone moved to Malkalen it would be very valuable.
I'm going to quote laws and games all day....here we go.
The Prisoner's Dilemma constitutes a problem in game theory. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence payoffs and gave it the "Prisoner's Dilemma" name. In its classic form it is framed by the following:
Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated both prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies (defects) for the prosecution against the other and the other remains silent, the betrayer goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?
What the hell does this have to do with people moving away from Jita? Glad you asked.
Two traders are in Jita. One says; let's move to another hub. If both move, they will likely get a similar outcome. If both SAY they'll move but only one does, the one who stays or "betrays" just eliminated one of their competition and may find better profits.
But then again...why knowingly moves somewhere that isn't as profitable as where you are now? Amazingly there are even more game theories at work like how trade hubs are distributed. I'll link a reference later, I need to get ready for work now.
Not saying they would, just if they did.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.02 01:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Khrillian
Not saying they would, just if they did.
I mean, don't get me wrong...people HAVE created trade hubs on their own "purposefully" before and it can be quite profitable. It's not a BAD idea.
I guess my ire is more directed at the idea that somehow we would try and create a new trade hub WHILE AT THE SAME TIME removing traders from Jita. I mean it's a nice thought and all, but I think there's more success to be had in identifying a potential new trade hub location and then stocking that and building it up.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Julian Greenwood
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Posted - 2009.03.02 01:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Ms Delerium My purpose is the following:
tomorrow we all are moving to Malkalen (2jumps from Jita) this will be the new trading hub of EVE.
if we all do it together, it will happen (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
It's called Metcalfe's law.
Metcalfe's law characterizes many of the network effects of communication technologies and networks such as the Internet, social networking, and the World Wide Web. It is related to the fact that the number of unique connections in a network of a number of nodes (n) can be expressed mathematically as the triangular number n(n − 1)/2, which is proportional to n2 asymptotically. In simpler terms, the more people in Jita, the more value that Jita has.
The law has often been illustrated using the example of fax machines: a single fax machine is useless, but the value of every fax machine increases with the total number of fax machines in the network, because the total number of people with whom each user may send and receive documents increases.
So if everyone moved to Malkalen it would be very valuable.
I'm going to quote laws and games all day....here we go.
The Prisoner's Dilemma constitutes a problem in game theory. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence payoffs and gave it the "Prisoner's Dilemma" name. In its classic form it is framed by the following:
Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated both prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies (defects) for the prosecution against the other and the other remains silent, the betrayer goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?
What the hell does this have to do with people moving away from Jita? Glad you asked.
Two traders are in Jita. One says; let's move to another hub. If both move, they will likely get a similar outcome. If both SAY they'll move but only one does, the one who stays or "betrays" just eliminated one of their competition and may find better profits.
But then again...why knowingly moves somewhere that isn't as profitable as where you are now? Amazingly there are even more game theories at work like how trade hubs are distributed. I'll link a reference later, I need to get ready for work now.
Tit for Tat anyone :) Man, i hate game theory!
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2009.03.02 09:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Thoraemond And apparently Metcalfe's law is wrong, too. It states that 'the value of a telecommunications network is proportional to the square of the number of connected users of the system (n^2)'. Apparently it actually approaches n+log(n) instead: hello Zipf's law!
Neither formulation is completely authoritative:
Quote: We admit that our n log(n) valuation of a communications network oversimplifies the complicated question of what creates value in a network; in particular, it doesn't quantify the factors that subtract from the value of a growing network, such as an increase in spam e-mail. Our valuation cannot be proved, in the sense of a deductive argument from first principles.
The basic idea behind the n log(n) valuation is that on a typical network, a few of the most popular destinations will see far more traffic than the rest, which is reasonable. But to apply Zipf's law, you still need to make quite a lot of assumptions about people's distributions of preferences. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that reality is more complicated. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team |
Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.02 09:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Khrillian
Not saying they would, just if they did.
I mean, don't get me wrong...people HAVE created trade hubs on their own "purposefully" before and it can be quite profitable. It's not a BAD idea.
I guess my ire is more directed at the idea that somehow we would try and create a new trade hub WHILE AT THE SAME TIME removing traders from Jita. I mean it's a nice thought and all, but I think there's more success to be had in identifying a potential new trade hub location and then stocking that and building it up.
Yup. Traders go where the ISK is so it seems silly to even talk about "removing" traders.
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Xeoniya
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Posted - 2009.03.02 20:02:00 -
[14]
First off, it seems relevant variables would be: (1) is it the same region - connected to information accessibility (2) distance in jumps between the hubs - the greater the number of jumps, the more likely a new hub can develop (3) difference in size of trader populations - the more traders the "stronger" a hub is, network affects and all that (4) difference is size of system populations - does it add any additional information over just trader population? (5) relative accessibility - how accessible is the new system compared to the existing hub
And secondly if the new system is in the same region and IF (unlikely) you did manage to displace Jita by getting over the critical number, Jita would disolve as the hubs are too close together and all you would accomplish is moving Jita to your system and you would still have the Jita-problem just shifted 2 systems over
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Solisk
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Posted - 2009.03.02 20:36:00 -
[15]
Moving 2 jumps for the sake of moving the market is a bad idea. The logistics and time involved are too large to do it "just for fun".
If you have found another system in The Forge that would function well as a trade hub, then by all means, go ahead and try to start a micro-hub and see if it grows.
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Xiroas
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Posted - 2009.03.02 21:53:00 -
[16]
Looks like a nice place to setup shop in one of my alts, thanks for the notification. ----------------------
The Legitimately Illegitimate blog of a scammer: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1011889 |
Xeoniya
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:38:00 -
[17]
Is the MD forum where we should be notifying of new Hub creation attempts?
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Solisk
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Xeoniya Is the MD forum where we should be notifying of new Hub creation attempts?
Of course. =P But the real question is, are we ready to make the announcement? I'm in a hotel tonight so I won't be able to ship anymore goods in. =(
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Baji Core
Hell's Satans
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:49:00 -
[19]
Sell more stuff in Villore station VI (Gallente FW base) kthx
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Arous Drephius
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:59:00 -
[20]
Lots of Math in this thread. It scares me.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.02 23:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Julian Greenwood Tit for Tat anyone :) Man, i hate game theory!
It would have to be iterated for that, not sure how often the same people try convince eachother to create a new hub
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Lt Angus
Caldari End Game. Dead End.
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Posted - 2009.03.03 00:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Julian Greenwood Tit for Tat anyone :) Man, i hate game theory!
It would have to be iterated for that, not sure how often the same people try convince eachother to create a new hub
I love this forum
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Zhilia Mann
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Posted - 2009.03.03 00:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Julian Greenwood Tit for Tat anyone :) Man, i hate game theory!
It would have to be iterated for that, not sure how often the same people try convince eachother to create a new hub
Erm. It would have to be iterated to actually optimize non-betrayal. On a single instance, betrayal just plain wins.
(Given normal prisoner dilemma payback values, of course.)
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.03 05:15:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Dasfry on 03/03/2009 05:15:26
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Ms Delerium (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
It's called Metcalfe's law.
Actually, Hotelling's Location Model has a large effect on jita
Hotelling's Location Model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Location_model#Hotelling.27s_Location_Model
*********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.03 05:40:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Dasfry on 03/03/2009 05:40:27
*********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.03 06:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dasfry Edited by: Dasfry on 03/03/2009 05:15:26
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Ms Delerium (or, is there any rule that says trading central must be Jita?)
It's called Metcalfe's law.
Actually, Hotelling's Location Model has a large effect on jita
Hotelling's Location Model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Location_model#Hotelling.27s_Location_Model
Ah ha!!!!
That's the one I was thinking of, I couldn't remember the name though. Dr. E used it as an example once but it had a private beach and two drink stands for the example.
It's hard to really get a great grasp on this concept since EVE's map isn't really a line, but still there should be some truth in how hubs arrange themselves.
Thank you Dasfry.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.03 08:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Julian Greenwood Tit for Tat anyone :) Man, i hate game theory!
It would have to be iterated for that, not sure how often the same people try convince eachother to create a new hub
Erm. It would have to be iterated to actually optimize non-betrayal. On a single instance, betrayal just plain wins.
(Given normal prisoner dilemma payback values, of course.)
And what would Tit for Tat be a strategy for? On single instances, Tit for Tat does not apply (which is exactly what I was saying in my previous post). For Tit for Tat to work, you'd have to have numerous repeated interactions and it should never be known which interaction will be the last one.
FREE! jumpclone service - 146 locations! |
Unbowed Ash
Gallente Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.03 11:17:00 -
[28]
Also - Jita is on seperated server.
CCP stated this on many occasions.
So when you jump to Jita you are moved to a separate server that works only for Jita pruposes.
Thats why ist not a super cool idea to move the bigest trade hub in EVE
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Frosty Nuggetz
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Posted - 2009.03.03 11:46:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Frosty Nuggetz on 03/03/2009 11:54:46 Amarr, in my limited view, is the new hub -- one of my alts made out like a bandit there this weekend when the price of Megacyte spiked to nearly 4K on SELL orders while the BUY orders were wallowing around 3200-ish.
Ka-ching
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