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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:59:00 -
[1]
reserved
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 15:49:00 -
[2]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 15:59:29
Originally by: Xi Tzu so this means i can mash out learning skills faster for new alts... sounds like win to me...
bingo!
post continued.
minmaxers are going to look up on the forums, or do the math themself, notice you gain 2 points instead of because of the double rate, and there fore gain 4 times the advantage quickly overcoming any lost time. They will never not train learning skills.
this is fine same as before.
B.players that just want to have fun won't ever learn learning skills, what a waste of time.
until they find out that in a small 15 day period those other players have pasted them in non-learning skill sp AND have their learning skills at a good level.
Then they keep going untill it's too late, then half to train learning skills at half rate, taking twice as long.
After a month of just wanting normal sp gain rate like everyone else, they go insane, and quit.
what a boring game. one month just so I can start training at a normal training rate or I lose months of training every month.
And then there is player C. who wants to have fun, but isn't stupid, and reads the forums, and asks for help.
this is about I'd say... 50-60% of the newer players. they don't stay quiet, they talk (even if not on the forums) and find this out before they go too far in and have to train for a month instead of 10 days.
But ti dawns on them, why would they have a skill you train just to train skills?
And they forever get a bad taste in thier mouth.
CCP, you must start now by removing at last advanced learning skills. This will not cure the problem, but it will help it. give this 5 points to all bas attributes, unmovable.
I'm an older 3 year player. I don't care if you just promise up some sort of payback later in sp, or isk, or ships. I don't care. newer palyers will never catch up, I could lose those 1.5 million sp I trained and now care if it meant the game was better.
hell you could take a year before you finally gave older players something for taking that sp away.
I don't think many older players would care.
newer players would train faster and not have to feel to ****ed over.
and you get to keep your stupid mechanic in the game. just only as a 30 day time sink (to level 5) thing instead of a 100 day time sink.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:10:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Amida Ta Sorry Fallout, but I have a huge feeling this will create the exact opposite movement for new players.
Now everybody WILL ALREADY tell new players to learn learning skills first. After the change this will even get worse. If a newby wouldn't train learnings first we would be stupid as hell and EVERYBODY will tell him that! (Calculations see thread above)
But the fix is soo simple: 1) Give all newbies Basic Learning Skills level 4. 2) Change Advanced Learning Skills to require Basic Learning 5.
This will not hurt anybody. You don't give them a ton of SPs for 5 * level 4. It will not hinder them with their path selection. BUT it will help getting them a somewhat more enjoiable start into the game where they won't be told to train some skills they can't currently use for a week and thus driving them off the game...
interesting.
In my plan you would gain 5, in yours, they gain 4.
then they would need to save up money to get the advanced learning skills.
Basicly what your saying is, give them the skills they are going to be forced to train anyways (forced as in by everyone making sure they don't ruin their character)
this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:17:00 -
[4]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:19:27
Originally by: StarWars BadGuy
Originally by: MotherMoon
this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...
This gets mentioned everytime a NPE type thread comes up, and so it should, its a good one.
Though it never gets implemented, which is a shame, as the only arguments against it are by bitter people who have already trained them and feel they are being robbed by the idea.
but now it takes 20 days less to train them... so it's 300% more important to take action!
oh and I want to hear a dev tell us why they should stay, instead of the bitter people
speaking of devs, if you were watching the 4th alliance tournament, one of the original devs states "learning skills was the worst idea we ever had" when asked what one thing would he change or add to the game if he could.
SO WHATS THE DEAL CCP!
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:24:00 -
[5]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:27:02
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: MotherMoon
Basicly what your saying is, give them the skills they are going to be forced to train anyways (forced as in by everyone making sure they don't ruin their character)
this would make it so they wouldn't have to be told "train your learning skills!" because they would already be trained...
Exactly.
I kinda want to give them basic at 5
Originally by: DaiZ Do Edited by: DaiZ Do on 02/03/2009 16:18:50 IDEA:
Don't apply the Learning Skills group to the 1.6mil gap and also don't give that group the time multiplier and everyone's happy? So the effect of not training them is not so ridiculous..
So, Type B Players can catch up faster, realizing that Learning skills are quite useful. Type A players have to balance between learning Learning Skills or just go as high as needed with their shiny, new alt's skills.
oh ho, but it is still is just as drastic. it jsut takes 15 days to train basic to 4 and advanced to 3.
Think about it this way. it normally takes 30 days. After double rate it will take 15 days. But in you idea lets cut that down and make it take 30 days again.
you still get 2 points per attibute point. and you'll still overtake your non-learning skill sp before the 1.6 million is up and surpass those players that didn't train them.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:48:00 -
[6]
Originally by: brinelan Training learning to 4/3 is nice and all, but what true newbie has 4.5m *4 just to dump into skillbooks when they fisrt start out?
one who has a 30 day plex card included in the box that they can trade for isk on the in-game market.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:49:00 -
[7]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:52:28 Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 16:51:16
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/03/2009 16:44:58 HOLY GOD YOU SLOW PEOPLE!
Learning skills are NOT A NECESSITY. You claim that new players 'have to', 'will be forced', 'catch up with old Sp', blah blah blah. Yet none of you realize that faster training is just that, faster training. It doesnt impact anything ingame, in terms of flying ships or pew pewing, can't allow a new player to fit this crazy thing called an AB, isn't part of the fun ship mechanics that they've heard about, its just faster training time.
In fact,
CAN ONE OF YOU WHINERS TELL ME WHAT OPPORTUNITY YOU LOSE BY NOT IMMEDIATELY TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS?
How many god damn days of training time will a new pilot miss out on if he neglects all but the easiest (less then, say, 3 hour training time) levels of learning for a few months?
Three? Four days? Get a life, new players just want to pew pew and get into a cruiser.
you really want to know?
did you completely ignore my post?
In the 1st 3 months they will miss on on 50 days of training.
50 ****ING DAYS.
if you train 4/3 you will be in a cruiser pew pewing 20 days before not training them.
as in
you don't train your learning skills and get to 400,000 sp. I train my learning skills for 10 days to 500,000 sp. now 10 days later you get to 600,000 sp. and I'm at 1.2 million sp.
your still stuck in a frigate, and I'm in a cruiser blowing through level 2 missions have fun training"real" skills.
If this was still on TQ I would of agreed with you. but with this new double training rate, it is no longer the case.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gnulpie . The increased learning speed won't change anything because the new player won't recognize that as an advantage. Instead he thinks it is normal. Perception is reality.
now please tell me what happens when they lose it. and figure out it wasn't normal.
it's like giving cake and then taking it away.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:22:00 -
[9]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/03/2009 17:22:35
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg In fact,
CAN ONE OF YOU WHINERS TELL ME WHAT OPPORTUNITY YOU LOSE BY NOT IMMEDIATELY TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS?
I'm sure there's a lesson in enjoying life in there somewhere, but I just can't figure it out.
Oh well... Back to counting my SP as they increase rapidly.
10 days or 30 days, how long do you want to watch your learning skills train.
and then, do mind being 50 days in sp behind NOT learning skill related in the 1st 90 days ok with you.
madness, I'm done. I'm ranting.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 20:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: MotherMoon 10 days or 30 days, how long do you want to watch your learning skills train.
and then, do mind being 50 days in sp behind NOT learning skill related in the 1st 90 days ok with you.
madness, I'm done. I'm ranting.
Hyperboles lead no where... Yet 30 days or 10 days, life is not a race to the end. Learn to enjoy what you have, not what you will be in possession of once you've reached the end of the race.
That is a wonderful way to live life.
sadly however, eve has a sub cost. And those 50 days I talked about... 60 if you include the learning skills... cost people real money.
so yeah, your totally right. If eve didn't have a subscription.
I wouldn't want to find out that another player just as old as me after only 3 months had 2 months more skills than me. and to catch up (which I could never do anyways) I would have to pay another 30$.
...
god that would make me quit right away.. I'll be helping out new players after this like always just to make sure we don't lose new players.
I'm an alt for an eve uni person. I just feel like this make our job harder...
before you had to really think. DO I want to train learning skills? Do I want to train for a month for something that won't pay off for 3 months? but now it's 10 days, and the pay off is 10 days. SO now it's yes, yes, yes, yes.
I won't let new player NOT train their learning skills in eve uni any lower than at least basic 4, advanced 1.
And yes I provide the advanced learning skill books because I think it's Bull**** new players are prenerfed. This new system is very heavily tilted in advantage for older players making alts that know what they are doing.
Also just to clear things up, if a new player used all 1,600,000 sp for learning than they would actually waste their double training time.
time based skill system... can't work this way anymore :(
wait I thought I was done typing today.. damn it.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.02 20:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lazyeye Larry
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: brinelan Training learning to 4/3 is nice and all, but what true newbie has 4.5m *4 just to dump into skillbooks when they fisrt start out?
one who has a 30 day plex card included in the box that they can trade for isk on the in-game market.
True newbies won't have this. They get one 60 day card that they use to start their account. A real newbie cannot/will not/won't know how to convert it into PLEXs and sell for ISK.
Apocrypha seems like it's supposed to be for new players, but this whole new player training thing is simply for alt farming. New players will be lost and skill-less and bored in this new plan.
Have they even said anything about how new players will pay for all these "missing yet customizable" skills they won't be getting?
Actually, the new tutorial is awesome. And gives you lots of skill books. I've only gone through 2 of the career mission on SiSi and I've gotten at least 15 new skill books.
just throw them all in the que as you get them.
Brilliant.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.03 03:17:00 -
[12]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/03/2009 03:20:11
Originally by: Pringlescan Yes this detailed need over a month to break even is really going to endear the game to all the 2 week trials.
no. you need 10 days to break even now, your thinking in current learning skills, not m10 learning skills.
Quote: I agree with you that the lack of direction is a problem. Other games have extensive PVE content to "guide" the newbie along, but this game does not, and has always been more about PVP than PVE. Maybe they'll change that.
once again, play the new career missions you guys. there is a nice chuck of direction. IN fact there is a 4-5 page tutorial for EVERY basic skill in the game now. It's epic.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.03 11:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/03/2009 11:26:29
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Mother, why don't you write up a clear concise guide on the initial training, with a few benchmark points (ie. Frigate 5 w. T2 Guns, Cruiser, BC and so on) and show the numbers for going learning and not. Maybe even use the approximate benchmarks that current skill-sets give with the various schools (don't have to mention the schools/skill-sets).
We can then start a ****-storm to have it stickied here on the forums and the incoming players can read it and decide what they want to do?
The skill gap between new players going learning or not is going to be severe enough for CCP to want to provide them with all relevant data to avoid early disappointments (player retention!) and while it may not be appropriate in-game, a sticky post certainly would be.
agreed, I'll do a full write up for m10. Maybe akita t will help me out with it.
I'm still in agreement that the old system was ok because it took months to gain back the time you lost. Butn now... think of this way. the time needed to train learn skills has been cut in half. The ammount learning skills increase your learning rate has been doubled. The effect of memory has been doubled. so you train learning skills in half the time AT twice the pseed. This results in a 4 times faster rate IF the new player figures this out.
SO yeah A guide should made easily available, that would solve my issues with the new system.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.03 14:25:00 -
[14]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/03/2009 14:32:25
Originally by: Psihius
Originally by: MotherMoon I'm still in agreement that the old system was ok because it took months to gain back the time you lost. Butn now... think of this way. the time needed to train learn skills has been cut in half. The ammount learning skills increase your learning rate has been doubled. The effect of memory has been doubled. so you train learning skills in half the time AT twice the pseed. This results in a 4 times faster rate IF the new player figures this out.
Can you explain about this, because nothing such has been mentioned in the devblog, so i'm reading your post and thinking WTF?!!!. As I understood, only training speed is up till 1.6 mil SP, after that you train as everybody else and learning skills work as usual.
edit:I think you might be asking wy I say doubled. I meant double for the time being. which would be during the time your training learning. Dont' forget if you even train only 4/2, that only takes 5 days and only takes up about... 250,000sp of your total 1.6 million.
as your forgetting (and so is ccp) that double rate to sp/hour, means that each level of learning that is trains now gives double the effect. Meaning it's like each level of learning gives you 2 points instead of 1.
This double the rate at which you gain attibutes... or more correctly, doubles the rate at which you can gaina high sp/hour. And you allready get double skill training rate.
so with +4 implants, and learning at 4/3, you are effectively gaining 11 attibute pints, and 11 BONUS points untill your 1.6 million sp is gone.
NO as you know learning skills themself take the attibute memory, and then the attibute being learned.
so not only do you training memory up twice as fast (due to the double rate) but you then gain 2 points of memory per level, which increases the speed of the next level more than currently on TQ. This means that instead of it taking say... 2 weeks instead of 4 weeks, because your thinking, of hey half training time. it instead takes ANOTHER week less due to the gained memory per level increaing the rate at which the rate is gain at double rate...
yeah, somethign like that I'll be writting up a happy new guide at some point.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.03 14:28:00 -
[15]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/03/2009 14:30:31
Originally by: Amarrs CEO junk
you haven't even played it on sisi have you? don't speak anymore untill you have, your whole post is nothing but hearsay.
currently on SiSi, you get a noob ship.
then you do the military career mission, this gets you a condor within 20 mins of play. Apon getting the ship you are giving a tutorial on fitting missles/guns. Then you do a mission.
YOu get to the nexrt part of the mission and are given an afterburner. A 5 page tutorial pops up explaining mid solts and what an afterburner does.
all of this is aiding by giving the new players every skill they will need for every new piece of free equipment. And a small tutorial on what hardpoitns are and what other mods are as those tutorials are needed.
it's brilliant, and your not allowed to comment on something without testing it.
Quote: Realise that he is going to be training skills (throught trial and error) for the next 2 weeks, thinks f*ck this, waste of time, I'm going back to WOW, telling everyone he knows that Eve sucks.
it takes... 20 mins for you to train any of the skills of which you mentioned. Also you get thema ll for free. and the skill que. So with your example, your saying after 3 hours, and having 9 new skills he is going to get sick of how long it took?
for skills that just finished and auto started the next one? every 20 mins?
I don't think they will even notice.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.03 17:23:00 -
[16]
so that's one vote for learning skills, and about 20 not for them.
SO wtf CCP? or... is the tinfoil hat men right? Is it just a way to keep people playign longer so they give you more money? wouldn't it be better if you trained skills faster, and never needed advanced learning skills? wouldn't that keep MORE players?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.04 02:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Megan Maynard I would be the one NOT training learning skills at double the rate.
Dumb people are gonna get screwed, like I did when I started playing.
Just get rid of the freaking learning skills and tell old players to suck it up.
hey, if you think about it, anyone whos played eve for over 2-4 years, must be qa masochist :P So they can handle it! were already half way there ccp :P
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.04 02:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Beckoner Venhatha This is my second time around in EVE (marital stress put paid to my first char in 2004/5)
Neither time did i feel the need to 'catch up' any of the 10M SP toons out there, let alone the oldtimers from 2003. I train a learning skill when i not focusing on anything else. (e.g. Not worried about new skills when getting the feel of my brand noo Vex)
Yep, so someone else who joined at the same time as me may be well ahead on SP, do i look worried? In this world (as in RL) there is always someone bigger badder and holding a larger boom-stick...
This is a game, relaxation, a social outlet, on occasion an adrenaline booster (undocking in 0.3 with rest of corp offline and a small merc fleet out to take me down)
If i was worried about being the best/fastest/most oo-ahh i'dve joined the WOW beta and ground/grinded 12 hours a night
IMO The people who stand to lose most from this are those who want those insta-alts : hmmm...
that's all good mate.
NOw give me a reason why removing learning skills ISN'T a good idea?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.04 22:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Infinion Why should a new player need to train all their learning skills at once? It's a decision for them to make. They have the choice to either train all their learning skills and do nothing, don't train them at all but get to their short-term goals faster, or alternate between training core skills and learning skills up to where they shorten training time without branching off and delaying a new player's goals.
not at once, but within the double training time.
also your also stuck thinking in non double training time. but I won't explain it a I have done so many times allready.
basicly if you don't you miss out within 16 days of starting the game, your already being surpassed in non-learning sp.
However this would not be an issue if at one point you didn't lose the double training time, which on top of being behind, now makes you train your learning skills 150% longer than if you had during double training time.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.06 08:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
Originally by: Michelle Kaku The thing is, not everyone knows about Evemon, especially new players, so they wont know if learning skills save them time or not...
The really new players don't know anything about the game other than that they want to be in battleships as parts of huge fleets blowing up some enemy; which is what is says on the box, which is the reason they bought the box in the first place.
After about 2 or 3 weeks they'll realize that training Learnings will get them into BSs faster than not - which is why my idea (page 3) is still the best.
Screw alts.
Ifly
right. My main issue is after the double training time is over, these players are ****ed.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.06 21:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Notnearly OnEnough and you somehow feel CCP owes you compensation for new players getting this adjustment
I don't want any compensation for anything.
even if they removed advanced learning skills I would care less if they didn't give me back that sp.
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