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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:17:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:21:33
Train a Cerberus.
Fit it like this.
3x Ballistic Control II Warded Gravimetric backup ECCM
10MN MWD 2x Sensor Booster II (1-2 rnage scripts - I use one to get faster locks, unless the target is at 240km) Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM (overheat the bastard - it can take a lot of heat) Large Shield Extender - sometimes you still take gate guns - or hostile snipers.
5x Heavy Missile Launcher II Large Armor remote Rep - offline for overheating heat sink.
2x Hydraulic Bay thrusters
400 dps (464 overheated) - close to 500 with implants. Firing at 200-240 km.
Stay out of gate gun range (easy) - stay aligned (intys are a must to be avoided - you can't have them point you and have their guys warp to him and gank you).
44 Sensor Strength - 51 overheated.
Protect your Falcons as well as killing hostile Falcons/Recons.
Some results:
Dead Falcon 1
Dead Falcon 2
Dead Falcon 3
Dead Falcon 4 with an Onyx (OK I was in an Onyx with Heavies for this - same concept)
This list ofc doesn't includes Falcons I've driven off. A Falcon that is forced to warp off is the most useless ship in your gang.
I've designed a Sniper Rokh (way more skill intensive) and a Sniper Eagle.
Fact is a ship of your own with a MWD, and the capability to hit out to 200km with 2x ECCM is crucial for any gang.
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:21:00 -
[2]
*Applause*
Now let the Falcon whining begin. Let's see when the first "OMG, Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM takes a slot" post appears.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:27:00 -
[3]
So ignoring the flight time of your missiles, what exactly prevents that falcon from just warping out? ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:28:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Furb Killer So ignoring the flight time of your missiles, what exactly prevents that falcon from just warping out?
Weird. I didn't know a falcon that is no longer on the battlefield can jam people...
Coordinate alpha strike if you want to kill it. 3-4 Cerbs will 1 volley the sucker.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:32:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/03/2009 16:32:42 Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Sniper rokh should barely be more skill intensive, and at least result in instant damage. Then when you got a few you can at least alpha strike him immediatly instead of having to wait half an hour till the missiles arrive. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:32:00 -
[6]
Need a cheap T1 Caracal to get you by till you skill up a Cerb?
2x Ballistic Control II
10MN Afterburner *In 0.0 swap to MWD 2x Sensor Booster II (1x targeting Range Script) Conjunctive ECCM Large Shield Extender II *swap for 2x ECCM since MWD won't give you grid for an extender
5x Heavy Missile Launcher II
You could rig up the hydraulic thruster rigs - but that then avoids the throwaway T1 cruiser focus.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:37:11
Originally by: Furb Killer Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Sniper rokh should barely be more skill intensive, and at least result in instant damage.
Weird - my Falcon opponent has magically made dozens of bookmarks on the gate/station/wherever.
I guess I have too.
Don't counter my suggestion with a Falcon with prepared Bookmarks. I can easily say I am prepared too and nullify the scenario.
I've been known to fly with fast ships in my gang - its not like they can't move to the falcon's spot and let me warp to them to attack the Falcon.
*EDIT* FYI Heavies are going 11,000 m/s - more with implants. 15-20 seconds - 1 jam cycle. I am MWDing to the target so I am compressing my wave of missile s alittle as well. They have time to make 1-2 jams then gtfo.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/03/2009 16:32:42 Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Sniper rokh should barely be more skill intensive, and at least result in instant damage. Then when you got a few you can at least alpha strike him immediatly instead of having to wait half an hour till the missiles arrive.
Glad to teach you then. Falcons jam for up to 20 seconds after they've left the battlefield. They were recently nerfed so they can't jam while cloaked, or so I've heard. They can still however jam while in warp. Ironicly a well set up falcon pilot doesn't need more than 20 seconds or so to get in a new spot and start jamming again. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 484878
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/03/2009 16:32:42 Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Correct. If you buy a Falcon, you automatically get 5 or 6 bookmarks for every gate in EVE extra.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Major Celine
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/03/2009 16:32:42 Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Correct. If you buy a Falcon, you automatically get 5 or 6 bookmarks for every gate in EVE extra.
It's one of the few conditions that make falcons horribly annoying. If they are right on top of you they're no worse than scorpions or blackbirds or even rooks.
Then again not all falcons even fit jams or cloaks. I bet you can kill them aswell and state there's nothing wrong with them. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 74782
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/03/2009 16:32:42 Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Sniper rokh should barely be more skill intensive, and at least result in instant damage. Then when you got a few you can at least alpha strike him immediatly instead of having to wait half an hour till the missiles arrive.
Glad to teach you then. Falcons jam for up to 20 seconds after they've left the battlefield. They were recently nerfed so they can't jam while cloaked, or so I've heard. They can still however jam while in warp. Ironicly a well set up falcon pilot doesn't need more than 20 seconds or so to get in a new spot and start jamming again.
I dont know what you are talking about, but i would advice reading my post again.
And sorry, but if you got a ship proving a warp in, then anyone can kill a falcon. Which is why falcon pilots keep moving arround to different bookmarks. Maybe you should try this against a bit more experienced falcon pilots who do warp out before the missiles hit him. He got 20 seconds between when you fire, and they hit. Why wouldnt he warp out? But apparently you can also just mwd toward a falcon without him warping out.
You can search, i never whined once about falcons. But this also is ridiculous. This will kill a falcon pilot if he has no bookmarks, and stays arround a minute getting damage without warping out. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/03/2009 16:32:42 Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Sniper rokh should barely be more skill intensive, and at least result in instant damage. Then when you got a few you can at least alpha strike him immediatly instead of having to wait half an hour till the missiles arrive.
Glad to teach you then. Falcons jam for up to 20 seconds after they've left the battlefield. They were recently nerfed so they can't jam while cloaked, or so I've heard. They can still however jam while in warp. Ironicly a well set up falcon pilot doesn't need more than 20 seconds or so to get in a new spot and start jamming again.
I dont know what you are talking about, but i would advice reading my post again.
And sorry, but if you got a ship proving a warp in, then anyone can kill a falcon. Which is why falcon pilots keep moving arround to different bookmarks. Maybe you should try this against a bit more experienced falcon pilots who do warp out before the missiles hit him. He got 20 seconds between when you fire, and they hit. Why wouldnt he warp out? But apparently you can also just mwd toward a falcon without him warping out.
You can search, i never whined once about falcons. But this also is ridiculous. This will kill a falcon pilot if he has no bookmarks, and stays arround a minute getting damage without warping out.
I could've sworn you said something else before your edit. Oh well, sorry. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 195338
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:53:00 -
[13]
Only added the last sentence ;) ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:37:11
Originally by: Furb Killer Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Sniper rokh should barely be more skill intensive, and at least result in instant damage.
Weird - my Falcon opponent has magically made dozens of bookmarks on the gate/station/wherever.
I guess I have too.
Don't counter my suggestion with a Falcon with prepared Bookmarks. I can easily say I am prepared too and nullify the scenario.
I've been known to fly with fast ships in my gang - its not like they can't move to the falcon's spot and let me warp to them to attack the Falcon.
*EDIT* FYI Heavies are going 11,000 m/s - more with implants. 15-20 seconds - 1 jam cycle. I am MWDing to the target so I am compressing my wave of missile s alittle as well. They have time to make 1-2 jams then gtfo.
Worth pointing out that if YOU warp or cloak, your missiles don't hit anything, but if the falcon warps or cloaks, anything already jammed remains jammed for the full jam cycle.
I'd really like to see that fixed so that forcing the falcon to warp/cloak does in fact free up your jammed pilots. __________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:05:00 -
[15]
Furb, if your Falcon has multiple BM around the Gate - so does my Cerb.
Fact is for a majority of situations a Cerb compliments a gang against hostile Falcons very nicely.
I fly Falcons as well - I jam and warp and jam and warp if I am fortunate enough to have the gate bookmarked up. I've also fought people smart enough to have intys that spread around a gate giving warp in for support to harrass Falcons. Its all situational - Falcons aren't invincible. The Cerb is a great counter to them.
People need to fly diverse gangs. I frequently fly a long range ship in a gang instead of a gank short range ship.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:06:00 -
[16]
I don't see your purpose in posting Furb Killer.
You say you're not whining, but yet you are saying this tactic won't work. Fact is, it is very effective. Yes, instant damage from a sniper gun boat is a bit more optimal but that doesn't make this tactic completely moot.
Now yes, maybe with the more experienced falcon pilots, they will get their jam and warp away, but 9/10 I highly doubt the battle will be in a location that they just happen to have a bookmark ready to warp to. The only plausible scenarios I see are low/null sec areas you live out of and thus frequent or a gate camp you have been sitting on for an extended period of time. In this case, yes, falcon will be able to move around.
There are other tactics to disabling the advantage a falcon brings to the fight; nevertheless, the op's proposal is a well known tactic used against falcons. Why is it well known? Because it has the potential to work.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:10:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/03/2009 17:13:20
Quote: Furb, if your Falcon has multiple BM around the Gate - so does my Cerb.
I once calculated it, and even posted it somewhere. However the chance that you have a bookmark within 30km of a falcon is neglectable small, unless you got so many bookmarks you dont have a clue to which one exactly you should warp.
The area at which a falcon can be is just too large to counter it with your own bookmarks.
Quote: I don't see your purpose in posting Furb Killer.
To point out this tactic doesnt work.
Quote: You say you're not whining, but yet you are saying this tactic won't work. Fact is, it is very effective.
No it isnt
Quote: Now yes, maybe with the more experienced falcon pilots, they will get their jam and warp away, but 9/10 I highly doubt the battle will be in a location that they just happen to have a bookmark ready to warp to.
Wait a moment, i am going to eve mail the AAA falcon pilots they shouldnt have those bookmarks they all have...
Quote: The only plausible scenarios I see are low/null sec areas you live out of and thus frequent or a gate camp you have been sitting on for an extended period of time.
English please?
Quote: In this case, yes, falcon will be able to move around.
By far most people operate in a limitted area and dont randomly fly all arround eve. Then you only need to make those bookmarks once for a system.
Quote: There are other tactics to disabling the advantage a falcon brings to the fight; nevertheless, the op's proposal is a well known tactic used against falcons. Why is it well known? Because it has the potential to work.
Not it fails. If you want to reliably kill a good falcon pilot you get enough turret snipers to alpha strike him.
---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:37:11
Originally by: Furb Killer Weird i didnt know that a falcon which warped to his next bookmark to jam from there was considered a killed falcon.
Sniper rokh should barely be more skill intensive, and at least result in instant damage.
Weird - my Falcon opponent has magically made dozens of bookmarks on the gate/station/wherever.
I guess I have too.
Don't counter my suggestion with a Falcon with prepared Bookmarks. I can easily say I am prepared too and nullify the scenario.
I've been known to fly with fast ships in my gang - its not like they can't move to the falcon's spot and let me warp to them to attack the Falcon.
*EDIT* FYI Heavies are going 11,000 m/s - more with implants. 15-20 seconds - 1 jam cycle. I am MWDing to the target so I am compressing my wave of missile s alittle as well. They have time to make 1-2 jams then gtfo.
Worth pointing out that if YOU warp or cloak, your missiles don't hit anything, but if the falcon warps or cloaks, anything already jammed remains jammed for the full jam cycle.
I'd really like to see that fixed so that forcing the falcon to warp/cloak does in fact free up your jammed pilots.
A slight correction - if you fire missiles - warp on grid - they still damage. You can't be in warp when the missile contact - but if you come out of warp on grid prior to your missiles landing they damage. Its situational, and I agree jams shouldn't work if the Falcon has no lock.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Furb Killer
I once calculated it, and even posted it somewhere. However the chance that you have a bookmark within 30km of a falcon is neglectable small, unless you got so many bookmarks you dont have a clue to which one exactly you should warp.
The area at which a falcon can be is just too large to counter it with your own bookmarks.
Let me get this straight. You are seriously making the argument that your Falcon has on-grid warp points for every gate you fight on in eve?
/me puts Tin Foil hat on.
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:14:00 -
[20]
Nerf bookmarks
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:15:00 -
[21]
Serious i dont know which game you play, but most people dont fly randomly all accross eve. Almost every falcon pilot will have those bookmarks.
You seriously think falcons would be a problem if they are always within 100km because they can only warp to 100 for their spot? 99% of the falcons i see are between 150 and 200km distance. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: Furb, if your Falcon has multiple BM around the Gate - so does my Cerb.
I once calculated it, and even posted it somewhere. However the chance that you have a bookmark within 30km of a falcon is neglectable small, unless you got so many bookmarks you dont have a clue to which one exactly you should warp.
The area at which a falcon can be is just too large to counter it with your own bookmarks.
Why does my cerb need 30KM? I just need to stay within 200-249km. My goal to keep shooting the Falcon then primary target. Staying within 249 of a Falcon is a 2 bookmark deal.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Originally by: Furb Killer
I once calculated it, and even posted it somewhere. However the chance that you have a bookmark within 30km of a falcon is neglectable small, unless you got so many bookmarks you dont have a clue to which one exactly you should warp.
The area at which a falcon can be is just too large to counter it with your own bookmarks.
Let me get this straight. You are seriously making the argument that your Falcon has on-grid warp points for every gate you fight on in eve?
/me puts Tin Foil hat on.
That's one way of making the argument, the other is - when they do have bookmarks, there's nothing you can really do about it. Fetching bookmarks for a region doesn't take to long, you can do it quite well in an evening or two. Most people don't fight in all of EVE at any given time. It's really quite a bit faster and easier to do than setting instas...
And the entire point is a falcon isn't to different to scorps, widows, rooks, blackbirds etc etc when you remove the cloak and warp. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 993598
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: Furb, if your Falcon has multiple BM around the Gate - so does my Cerb.
I once calculated it, and even posted it somewhere. However the chance that you have a bookmark within 30km of a falcon is neglectable small, unless you got so many bookmarks you dont have a clue to which one exactly you should warp.
The area at which a falcon can be is just too large to counter it with your own bookmarks.
Why does my cerb need 30KM? I just need to stay within 200-249km. My goal to keep shooting the Falcon then primary target. Staying within 249 of a Falcon is a 2 bookmark deal.
Because unless you want to alpha strike that falcon, which is kinda hard with a cerb, you are going to need a point on him.
And from 250km your missiles take half an hour to arrive. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Omarvelous A slight correction - if you fire missiles - warp on grid - they still damage. You can't be in warp when the missile contact - but if you come out of warp on grid prior to your missiles landing they damage. Its situational, and I agree jams shouldn't work if the Falcon has no lock.
I did not know that. Has it ever mattered? Even short warps take a long time to drop out of because decelleration takes a while, and with the high speed of the missiles, I don't see it happening. __________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Omarvelous A slight correction - if you fire missiles - warp on grid - they still damage. You can't be in warp when the missile contact - but if you come out of warp on grid prior to your missiles landing they damage. Its situational, and I agree jams shouldn't work if the Falcon has no lock.
I did not know that. Has it ever mattered? Even short warps take a long time to drop out of because decelleration takes a while, and with the high speed of the missiles, I don't see it happening.
You can do it pretty nicely with a stealth bomber. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 180719
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Rordan D'Kherr
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Posted - 2009.03.02 18:33:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Furb Killer 99% of the falcons i see are between 150 and 200km distance.
Hmm, you should stop jumping into well prepared gate camps if you cannot counter their advantage with a) numbers b) ehp (maybe RR) or c) eccm.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 18:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Because unless you want to alpha strike that falcon, which is kinda hard with a cerb, you are going to need a point on him.
And from 250km your missiles take half an hour to arrive.
OK - I'm done arguing with your perfect Falcon. If you think my anti-Falcon Cerb sucks so be it - I hope Falcon pilots listen to you - I enjoy killing over-confident/un-prepared pilots.
Fact is people roam - not every Falcon has 5 bookmarks on a gate, gangs need diversity and the Falcon isn't much of a threat to my gangs if I'm flying with some diversity.
You might think missile travel time is too long, so did the last few Falcon pilots I killed.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.03.02 18:57:00 -
[29]
This is why theorycrafting stometimes don't translate well into actual PvP. Yes, you could dodge those missiles with alot of bookmarks and fast reactions. However, how many times will you see that happen in actual combat?
If the Falcon's warping anywhere he's probably just trying to GTFO to the next planet, station or star before he's toast.
This cerb works, but isn't it a bit interesting that arguably the best counter ship to a Falcon also requires Caldari Cruiser V?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 18:59:00 -
[30]
Getting another falcon and jamming him works far better btw.
Maybe some people here don't have any skilled falcon pilots as opponents. But most of the opponents i see have bookmarks arround the gate and constantly move from sniper spot to sniper spot. Falcons are no different, they warp to other spots arround a gate all the time. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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