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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.03.02 19:06:00 -
[31]
The falcon is an alt. He'll get hit by the first volley, realise what is happening and warp. This is fine, as it takes him off the field.
ECM now just needs to be fixed so it works like every other weapon and actually stops when the Falcon warps off. -
Originally by: The Cuckoo Good luck in defending idiotic and greedy noobs, as far as I'm concerned, you are their champion.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 19:08:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Furb Killer Getting another falcon and jamming him works far better btw.
Maybe some people here don't have any skilled falcon pilots as opponents. But most of the opponents i see have bookmarks arround the gate and constantly move from sniper spot to sniper spot. Falcons are no different, they warp to other spots arround a gate all the time.
Choice between 2x Falcons for a gang and 1x Falcon and 1x Cerb. I'd chose the latter. I prefer having Falcons jam DPS ships, and an anti-Falcon long range ship taking out a hostile Falcon. Once you've removed the Falcon from the field you can throw 300-400 dps on the primary that a Falcon cannot.
Even a Falcon moving around his perfect spots will not be 100% effective with a dedicated ship firing on it. Again, you disagree with my setup - fine - my results speak for themselves, you can keep discounting it - I'll keep my gangs safer from ECM ships.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.02 19:30:00 -
[33]
A cerb constantly launching missiles at a falcon helps, i will never deny that. However what i do deny is that you will kill a competent falcon pilot that way, or completely remove it from the field. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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bettybettybettybetty
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Posted - 2009.03.02 19:35:00 -
[34]
Dear falcon pilots, fit defender missiles, ?????, profit.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.03.02 19:45:00 -
[35]
I agree. This tactic won't kill most falcons you come across, however is a very nice addition to any gang. Cerb harasses enemy falcon. Enemy falcon warps off, frees up friendly falcon to jam DPS ships and the Cerb can then provide DPS himself.
Thanks for the fit - maybe I'll try it out sometime.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.03.02 21:51:00 -
[36]
Quote: ECM now just needs to be fixed so it works like every other weapon and actually stops when the Falcon warps off
ECM does work like all other ewar effects in that it stops working at the end of the cycle, regardless if the ship it originates from cloaks or warps off.
The main difference is most ewar effects last 5 seconds while ECM lasts 20 seconds, but points/webs/tracking disruption/etc/etc all use precisely the same mechanics. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S |
J Valkor
R.U.S.T.
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:05:00 -
[37]
Why cerb instead of an eagle?
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: J Valkor Why cerb instead of an eagle?
skilled in missiles = cerb. skilled in hybrids = eagle.
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:08:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Rajere on 02/03/2009 22:08:49 Why Eagle instead of a Falcon?
The problem with the OPs solution is any caldari cruiser V pilot is better off in a Falcon regardless if it's a main or an alt, to counter falcons or simply to "win" fights. And by win I mean "not lose" fights, which typically results from not getting the fight to begin with. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 23:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: J Valkor Why cerb instead of an eagle?
I'm better skilled with hybrid turrets than I am with missiles - yet I prefer the Cerb over the Eagle for this job.
Give me an Eagle fit that:
- Shoots to 200-249km - Does ~400 dps at that range - has ~40-50 sensor strength - can still fit a large shield extender for some form of buffer (sure Eagle's resist bonus makes this a little moot - try accomplishing the other criteria).
Eagle's advantage is insta hits - which to me make it a far superior anti-frig support. Spike ammo is so horribly tracking challenged that I prefer Dread Gurista/Guardian Iron Ammo in nearly all situations.
Don't get my wrong I like the Eagle - it just doesn't do enough damage against Falcons to justify the instant hits. Its a struggle to get an Eagle to hit at 250km, and fit ECCM and sensor boosters and tracking enhancers/computers.
Its great for popping stealth bombers though :)
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 23:02:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 02/03/2009 22:08:49 Why Eagle instead of a Falcon?
The problem with the OPs solution is any caldari cruiser V pilot is better off in a Falcon regardless if it's a main or an alt, to counter falcons or simply to "win" fights. And by win I mean "not lose" fights, which typically results from not getting the fight to begin with.
If I had a choice between 2 falcons and 1 falcon and 1 cerb. I'd choose the latter. If I can only spare 1 long range pilot, then I'll agree and go with the Falcon - mainly because of the prevalence of RR gangs, and scouting is vital.
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Kesper North
Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.03.03 00:56:00 -
[42]
It's worth noting that Falcons almost never have any tank and almost never get remoted repped, as they're at range from the rest of the fleet. So even if you are just doing one volley's worth of damage to the Falcon every time he warps, eventually he's either going to have to leave the field entirely or get popped. Also, not all Falcon pilots will be on the ball enough to warp out in time - I'll admit I've been guilty of that a time or two, especially when there are so many targets I can't see them all on my overview at once. So don't allow an excessive presumption of competence on the Falcon pilot's part to stop you from using what looks to me like a good counter-setup.
(A consistent exception here have been the TRI falcon pilots I've fought - they've consistently been really on the ball.)
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J Valkor
R.U.S.T. BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.03.03 01:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: J Valkor Why cerb instead of an eagle?
I'm better skilled with hybrid turrets than I am with missiles - yet I prefer the Cerb over the Eagle for this job.
Give me an Eagle fit that:
- Shoots to 200-249km - Does ~400 dps at that range - has ~40-50 sensor strength - can still fit a large shield extender for some form of buffer (sure Eagle's resist bonus makes this a little moot - try accomplishing the other criteria).
Eagle's advantage is insta hits - which to me make it a far superior anti-frig support. Spike ammo is so horribly tracking challenged that I prefer Dread Gurista/Guardian Iron Ammo in nearly all situations.
Don't get my wrong I like the Eagle - it just doesn't do enough damage against Falcons to justify the instant hits. Its a struggle to get an Eagle to hit at 250km, and fit ECCM and sensor boosters and tracking enhancers/computers.
Its great for popping stealth bombers though :)
Understood. I have max missile skills so cerb is prolly better for me. As in every support skill to 5, HACs to 5, and even heavy missile spec to 5. Even thermodynamics to 5:P
But I am training gunnery skills in the same direction and was wondering for reference in the future. Instead of taking a year and a half to train every races frigates/cruisers/bs to 5 + all gunnery skills to spec 4 with all support skills to 5, it will only take a year.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.03 04:53:00 -
[44]
Best way to kill or drive off or nullify a Falcon using another Caldari ship in order of effectiveness:
1) ECCM Rokh 2) Falcon, Rook, Scorp 3) ECCM Eagle (how many volleys will hit in 30 seconds hmm?) . . . . . . . . . . . . 4) lolExtremeRangeMissileSnipinglol might work for some LowSuck small fry fights assuming the Falcon pilot is an alt and the player a sleepy ADD infected re-tard.
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Zubakis
Bambooule
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Posted - 2009.03.03 06:30:00 -
[45]
Just wondering, if the falcon pilot would use defenders, how much damage he would be able to negate from one cerb?
-- Zuba |
bettybettybettybetty
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Posted - 2009.03.03 07:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Zubakis Just wondering, if the falcon pilot would use defenders, how much damage he would be able to negate from one cerb?
From what i've seen.... most if not all of it, the only time my friend took any damage was when he had to reload.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.03 09:52:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 03/03/2009 09:52:37 Not at all having read the thread (it's early and haven't had my coffee yet), while it sure works the travel time for the missiles will mess things up a bit. It'll only work with stationary, half afk falcon alts. Any real falcon pilot who's prepared and competent will simply warp to other gate BM's. Sure he'll be less effective but that's about it.
Not sure how many volleys you'd need to take one down and how many volleys you can fire before the first one hits but if my falcon sees a long range ship redboxing on me it's time to move. You're much better off getting a Rokh/Apoc with sniper/ECCM fit and blast him to kingdom come.
Still, your solution is viable and MUCH better than the "OMG WE CAN'T COMPETE BECAUSE WE'RE TOO LAZY AND DUMB TO USE A COUNTER", the "TACTICS ARE STUPID" or the "ECCM LOWERS MY EHP/DPS THEREFORE IT'S CRAP" brigade.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.03 10:19:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Zubakis Just wondering, if the falcon pilot would use defenders, how much damage he would be able to negate from one cerb?
If the Cerb pilot has his launchers grouped, then a lot of it - all of the defenders will attack the single missile group. However, if the Cerb pilot ungroups his launchers, then all defenders in space will home in on the leading missile. The first defender will kill it, meaning that the following defenders in space have lost their target and do nothing.
Assuming 11 km/s missiles and 9 km/s defenders from a rocket launcher, and a Defender activation range of ~90 km (I think it's similar to FOFs), then the first missile is destroyed at about 45 km range, then another at about 20 km, then probably no more because they're too close. So you might kill 1 or 2 from the first volley, then probably no more because they'll always choose the closest target which is by then too close to be hit in time. That's not going to keep you alive.
People criticising missile spam as an anti-ECM tactic have kinda missed the point in places. Yes, obviously ECCMed snipers are better. But this kind of Cerb is clearly aimed at small gangs, where a sniper BS is rather immobile and vulnerable and where - being a small gang - pilots need to fulfil multiple roles. This kind of Cerb can drive off ECM boats and still contribute ~400 DPS to other targets. Because it's a small gang, the primary doesn't instapop so ~15 seconds flight time isn't a crippling problem.
The BM problem is valid, but it also applies to all other anti-Falcon ships. A Falcon can rotate BMs while a Rokh spends ~12 seconds trying to lock the thing. Heh, in fact, assuming no scan res mods/scripts, the different lock times means that a Cerberus deals DPS to a Falcon target within about 85 km before a sniper Rokh.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.03 10:24:00 -
[49]
Every sniper rokh has dual sensor booster. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.03 10:40:00 -
[50]
With one with lock range script and the other unscripted to be able to lock at 249 km. But, erm, you don't need that to lock this imaginary Falcon at 85 km. So ignore that point. Although you might want to keep the range script in, in case another Falcon appears at 200 km and you don't want to have to wait for the end of the mod cycle to switch scripts.
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ry ry
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Posted - 2009.03.03 12:02:00 -
[51]
what? a force recon can be killed by a HAC?!
buff falcons ffs.
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Fastbikkel
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2009.03.03 12:04:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 16:21:33 Large Armor remote Rep - offline for overheating heat sink.
??? im no n00b, but i am clueless as to what this means? Why would i fit a large armor remote rep on a ship only to put it offline??? And how does it help a heat sink?
-If the enemy is in range, so are you- |
ry ry
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Posted - 2009.03.03 12:21:00 -
[53]
Edited by: ry ry on 03/03/2009 12:21:28
when you overheat a module it generates heat. if you have an offline module is dissipates heat. the module can be overheated for longer before it dies.
what i'm not sure about is whether large modules work better than medium as heatsinks - i was pretty sure they didn't.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2009.03.03 13:19:00 -
[54]
I wish the cerb had dual missile velo bonus's waiting over 20secs for the missiles to hit is painful, not to mention losing multiple salvos when you or your target warps :( --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.03 13:56:00 -
[55]
Originally by: darkmancer I wish the cerb had dual missile velo bonus's waiting over 20secs for the missiles to hit is painful, not to mention losing multiple salvos when you or your target warps :(
16Km/s heavies?
DO WANT!
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Fastbikkel
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2009.03.03 14:11:00 -
[56]
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 03/03/2009 12:21:28 when you overheat a module it generates heat. if you have an offline module is dissipates heat. .
Thanks, great info mate :- ) -If the enemy is in range, so are you- |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.03 15:06:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Zubakis Just wondering, if the falcon pilot would use defenders, how much damage he would be able to negate from one cerb?
My corpmates and myself tested this out - I fly my Falcon with defenders.
Thing is - without the missile velocity rigs heavies tend to fly slow enough for the defenders to catch up and connect - so they reduce some of the damage. I group my missiles and it doesnt wipe them all out.
However, when you put 2 hydraulic thrusters to increase missile speed to around 11,000 m/s - they travel too fast for defenders. The defender missile zips around struggling to catch up - and then the missile connects with the target. Defenders were not 100% effective in this situation.
Defenders still help against unbonused/un-rigged missiles. They help some - but not enough to sway me against using this setup against Falcons.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.03 15:18:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 03/03/2009 15:18:22
Originally by: J Valkor
Understood. I have max missile skills so cerb is prolly better for me. As in every support skill to 5, HACs to 5, and even heavy missile spec to 5. Even thermodynamics to 5:P
But I am training gunnery skills in the same direction and was wondering for reference in the future. Instead of taking a year and a half to train every races frigates/cruisers/bs to 5 + all gunnery skills to spec 4 with all support skills to 5, it will only take a year.
Impressive skills - I assume you plug in the missile implants as well (rate of fire, heavy missile damage, explosion radius, explosion velocity - crash booster)? If you do and overheat you can edge yourself close to 500 dps. You'll also be a menace to inty's/AF that might be chasing you or your friendly Falcons down. Not as good as assault light launchers - but good enough with the benefit of range and damage of heavies.
I co-trained missiles and gunnery to add some variety to my playstyle. Turrets require good manual maneuvering to maintain optimal and minimal transversal, however they're a lot of fun and the instant damage is a huge advantage for sure. I'd train the Eagle if you like to pick off hostile intercetors, pods, assault frigates. With spike it lacks the brutal firepower to take down a HAC/Recon fast enough on its own. I flew it with blasters - and while its pretty impressive (especially with null against nano hacs like Vagabonds) its risky getting into blaster range with such an expensive ship (I use the Ferox for this instead).
If you want a turret solution to Falcons, the sniper BS is best - but as was mentioned earlier thats a risky solution in a small gang. I fly a T2 sniper Rokh, and its very nice - but very slow, and I wouldn't dream of taking it on a roam in 0.0.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.03 21:57:00 -
[59]
Pretty much harassed 2 falcs into uselessness with my cerb tonight. 1 ECCM fitted, which was effective perhaps because I remembered that it's not a passive module.
Re-affirming my lack of sympathy for falcon whiners. Spend hours and hours getting bookmarks like they do and you'll be "invulnerable" like they are.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.03 22:15:00 -
[60]
My rapier would like to know how he becomes invulnerable by making some bookmarks. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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