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Mcpate
0ne Percent. Transmission Lost
7
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Posted - 2012.04.26 13:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not the typical Eve player in that all I know about computers is where the power button is. This is the first and only online computer game I have ever played. In fact, I use Eve as a resource whenever I have issues with my computers at home. My corp-mates and generally anyone in local, for that matter, can troubleshoot my computer far better than some geek from the big box store. So, could someone explain to me why CCP seems to have such a difficult time with their programming /coding or whatever in tweaking and changing this game we play? Is it REALLY a daunting and difficult task to get right?
When I adjust the valve lash on a shim-under-bucket twenty valve high performance engine, I do so with precision and I double and triple check my work. I check it once again before I button up the engine and reassemble the vehicle. I then test the vehicle and quad-triple check my work. I then have someone else check behind me. The COTTON PICKING thing works before I get paid...end of story.
I hope someone can explain why I cant relate my concrete, absolute, measurable task oriented world to this computer based programming/server/coding/gaming 'try it now and see if it works' world. |
Hayaishi
Aperture Harmonics K162
94
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mcpate wrote:I'm not the typical Eve player in that all I know about computers is where the power button is. This is the first and only online computer game I have ever played. In fact, I use Eve as a resource whenever I have issues with my computers at home. My corp-mates and generally anyone in local, for that matter, can troubleshoot my computer far better than some geek from the big box store. So, could someone explain to me why CCP seems to have such a difficult time with their programming /coding or whatever in tweaking and changing this game we play? Is it REALLY a daunting and difficult task to get right?
When I adjust the valve lash on a shim-under-bucket twenty valve high performance engine, I do so with precision and I double and triple check my work. I check it once again before I button up the engine and reassemble the vehicle. I then test the vehicle and quad-triple check my work. I then have someone else check behind me. The COTTON PICKING thing works before I get paid...end of story.
I hope someone can explain why I cant relate my concrete, absolute, measurable task oriented world to this computer based programming/server/coding/gaming 'try it now and see if it works' world.
The difference between code and a valve is that a valve goes up and down, and code does EVERYTHING. Relating a program to a car engine isn't the best relation, as code does a lot more than just 4 strokes.
CCP does have QA, but the thing is, that unless you've a QA department the size of your playerbase, you're not going to catch everything.
tldr: if cars were like computers, pressing the wrong button, would fill your fuel tank with live raccoons. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
712
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thing is...if you calibrate wrong someone could be killed. If CCP calibrates wrong, a bunch of easily ignored people become annoyed.
Computer game developers are insulated from the public (I understand in Iceland one NEEDS a LOT of insulation) and can pretend we don't exist except in our own minds. Of course, since it's "computers" they can also laugh up their sleeves and think us "stupid", and not deserving of serious consideration.
Where you DO get their attention is by putting a dent in their income. Though, Western Civ (and this EVE playerbase) find it hard to find agreement on if there's a sun in the sky, or not. So...game companies enjoy a distance the police and insurance companies...various barristers...wouldn't allow YOU to enjoy.
Very childish of them (CCP), wouldn't you agree? I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Hayaishi
Aperture Harmonics K162
94
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Thing is...if you calibrate wrong someone could be killed. If CCP calibrates wrong, a bunch of easily ignored people become annoyed.
Computer game developers are insulated from the public (I understand in Iceland one NEEDS a LOT of insulation) and can pretend we don't exist except in our own minds. Of course, since it's "computers" they can also laugh up their sleeves and think us "stupid", and not deserving of serious consideration.
Where you DO get their attention is by putting a dent in their income. Though, Western Civ (and this EVE playerbase) find it hard to find agreement on if there's a sun in the sky, or not. So...game companies enjoy a distance the police and insurance companies...various barristers...wouldn't allow YOU to enjoy.
Very childish of them (CCP), wouldn't you agree?
Not really? Being a programmer, you need to assess risk and priorities. If there's a massive game breaking issue with the game, it'll get fixed really quickly, otherwise? It'll probably fall behind on a backburner till someone yells loud enough and it gets bumped up. Programmers are expensive people, so it's best to keep them producing new content / money making features, than fixing an issue that affects <5% of the playerbase |
james1122
Aperture Harmonics K162
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
I would assume a lot of it is down to investment/reward ratio. Yes they could spend X amount of time fine tuning and perfecting every line of code but ultimately that would take so long that when you finally deliver the product you would never be able to recover the investment cost of fine tuning it so much. Thus its much more profitable to release a less polished product sooner.
Its why quite a lot of company's will release products with known bugs, once the product has been released it is already bringing in money and then you can spend time afterwards patching up the issues to prolong customer usage. The trick is to not release a product that is so buggy that it prevents sales.
Also you can't compare it to a mechanical product where having a fault can lead to someone's death.
Two Step for CSM |
gfldex
493
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mcpate wrote:I'm not the typical Eve player in that all I know about computers is where the power button is. This is the first and only online computer game I have ever played. In fact, I use Eve as a resource whenever I have issues with my computers at home. My corp-mates and generally anyone in local, for that matter, can troubleshoot my computer far better than some geek from the big box store. So, could someone explain to me why CCP seems to have such a difficult time with their programming /coding or whatever in tweaking and changing this game we play? Is it REALLY a daunting and difficult task to get right?
Imagine you would have to write a book with 50000 pages and you are not allowed to have any spelling and grammar errors or any contradictions. Could you?
Mcpate wrote:When I adjust the valve lash on a shim-under-bucket twenty valve high performance engine, I do so with precision and I double and triple check my work. I check it once again before I button up the engine and reassemble the vehicle. I then test the vehicle and quad-triple check my work. I then have someone else check behind me. The COTTON PICKING thing works before I get paid...end of story.
They do the same. Sadly their "car" got quite a few engines, not one of them the same then another and many of them run on different physical principles. If you do engineering you try to keep the moving parts down for a reason. EVE is an machine with 100000 moving parts. Not one the same then the other.
If you build a physical engine you stop at some point to add complexity simply because you could not move it anymore at some point. The most complicated machines we build are aircraft carriers and they only work because they are made from many independent subsystems that can be tested separately.
With software you don't have that weight limit, nor any limit to complexity. And in many cases you don't have a clean separation between subsystems (or they would not work together).
You can't really compare physical engines because any engine with the complexity of a big software system would work equally well and nobody in his right mind would spend any money for that. When someone burns down your sandcasle, bring sausages. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
421
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hayaishi wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Thing is...if you calibrate wrong someone could be killed. If CCP calibrates wrong, a bunch of easily ignored people become annoyed.
Computer game developers are insulated from the public (I understand in Iceland one NEEDS a LOT of insulation) and can pretend we don't exist except in our own minds. Of course, since it's "computers" they can also laugh up their sleeves and think us "stupid", and not deserving of serious consideration.
Where you DO get their attention is by putting a dent in their income. Though, Western Civ (and this EVE playerbase) find it hard to find agreement on if there's a sun in the sky, or not. So...game companies enjoy a distance the police and insurance companies...various barristers...wouldn't allow YOU to enjoy.
Very childish of them (CCP), wouldn't you agree? Not really? Being a programmer, you need to assess risk and priorities. If there's a massive game breaking issue with the game, it'll get fixed really quickly, otherwise? It'll probably fall behind on a backburner till someone yells loud enough and it gets bumped up. Programmers are expensive people, so it's best to keep them producing new content / money making features, than fixing an issue that affects <5% of the playerbase I can see where that compares to losing lives in auto accidents. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
523
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mcpate wrote:I'm not the typical Eve player in that all I know about computers is where the power button is. This is the first and only online computer game I have ever played. In fact, I use Eve as a resource whenever I have issues with my computers at home. My corp-mates and generally anyone in local, for that matter, can troubleshoot my computer far better than some geek from the big box store. So, could someone explain to me why CCP seems to have such a difficult time with their programming /coding or whatever in tweaking and changing this game we play? Is it REALLY a daunting and difficult task to get right?
When I adjust the valve lash on a shim-under-bucket twenty valve high performance engine, I do so with precision and I double and triple check my work. I check it once again before I button up the engine and reassemble the vehicle. I then test the vehicle and quad-triple check my work. I then have someone else check behind me. The COTTON PICKING thing works before I get paid...end of story.
I hope someone can explain why I cant relate my concrete, absolute, measurable task oriented world to this computer based programming/server/coding/gaming 'try it now and see if it works' world.
Your car's engine is made of a certain amount of pieces. Dunno how many, but likely are in the thousands, right?.
Software is built of pieces of text called "lines". Those lines interact with each other much as mechanical parts do (just some interactions are pretty complex).
On a unofficial guesstimate, EVE's code has got about 10 million lines. And I guess that if you had to tinker with an engine made of 10 million pieces, some of them would slip out of place each now and then... specially when adding a few hundred thousand parts more to the old beast without as much as, huh, stop it and see what parts were doing what when somebody else built it 10 years ago... EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression Dragoons.
143
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rather than thinking of eve as a car engine where you havea valve you can tweak and what not.
Think of it as the international space station. You have hundreds of different people, with different backgrounds, different design styles and different engineering styles from all over the world together working using metric and imperial measurements on one project.
Some of the guys who first built\designed the waste disposal units have left\moved onto other jobs so their designs that they understood perfectly are left for who ever takes over the role that may disagree with how it's done\not fully understand the genius of it.
Same kinda thing with eve, dozens of people with different background and schooling working on a single project, made up of many many moduels with historic code written by people who are now well above the role of rewriting that code. Except there's less of a chance of implosions.
did that help? |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
713
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
And, the internet is a bunch of tubes...your browser is like a pick-up truck...
The guy didn't ask for a laundry list of how they're managing to do it WRONG. He's asking why they don't do it RIGHT. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
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Hayaishi
Aperture Harmonics K162
94
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 13:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:And, the internet is a bunch of tubes...your browser is like a pick-up truck...
The guy didn't ask for a laundry list of how they're managing to do it WRONG. He's asking why they don't do it RIGHT.
Reason why we state how they're getting is wrong is because that's what's stopping them from doing it right?
If he wanted a straight answer, I'll give one. That answer being:
Quote:There is no such thing as a bug free program. |
Pres Crendraven
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
They are creating something, you are maintaining something. IN eve we create. Think of it this way. Riceburner comes in the shop with no head on the block. They look at you and say design, cast, machine asseble the missing part without having any pictures or an idea what is to fit on top of it. Somehow you manage to invent the wheel, shim and bucket, overhead valves, associated ignition and injection and exhaust parts and you strap it on top with rice glue and hit the power button.
Whats the chances that you don't have to take it apart to get it to work rright.
Whats the chances you could even design and build a valve without a drawing that drops right in and runs?
Meta34me |
Hayaishi
Aperture Harmonics K162
94
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pres Crendraven wrote:They are creating something, you are maintaining something. IN eve we create. Think of it this way. Riceburner comes in the shop with no head on the block. They look at you and say design, cast, machine asseble the missing part without having any pictures or an idea what is to fit on top of it. Somehow you manage to invent the wheel, shim and bucket, overhead valves, associated ignition and injection and exhaust parts and you strap it on top with rice glue and hit the power button.
Whats the chances that you don't have to take it apart to get it to work rright.
Whats the chances you could even design and build a valve without a drawing that drops right in and runs?
QFT |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
135
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Your Valve works in a Dodge. Put it in a Datsun it might not do so well.
That's how code works. Thank MicroSoft and legislation from 20 years ago for that. I'm actually surprised code works at all considering how many parts manufacturers there are out there. Graphics cards alone, on several different versions of Windows, Linux and Mac OS.
They can't know, let alone test on every possible hardware/ Software configuration out there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
774
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
ITT: People who have no concept of what its like to write software.
Would your engine work properly in every use case scenario?
What if it was hooked up to a snow blower and used at full throttle for 3 hours straight?
What if it was used to power a home-made submarine and submerged in water several times?
How about used to power a conveyor belt in a blast furnace and subjected to 300+ degree temps constantly?
I bet some of those users would discover "bugs" in your engine. :)
Here's your sign... |
Araviel
Spiritus Draconis
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
EvE is also quite old. an Oldsmobile converted into a Ferrari The Ferrari is almost complete (old code replaced whit new one but some parts of that Oldsmobile can still show up as a ghost in the machine. |
Mcpate
0ne Percent. Transmission Lost
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:ITT: People who have no concept of what its like to write software.
Would your engine work properly in every use case scenario?
What if it was hooked up to a snow blower and used at full throttle for 3 hours straight?
What if it was used to power a home-made submarine and submerged in water several times?
How about used to power a conveyor belt in a blast furnace and subjected to 300+ degree temps constantly?
I bet some of those users would discover "bugs" in your engine. :)
Ha! in that case I would use a 1986 BMW K75 power plant after removing it from my snowmobile!
Thanks to all for the well illustrated replies. I get it that this 'code' is is exponentially more complex and intra-dependent than an engine. maybe its more like practicing medicine than just wrenching. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Imagine designing a car - not a modern one with engine management stuff, a proper mechanical car.
Now imagine your customer can (and does) install their own carb and turbo/supercharger. They then change the brakes.
The car subsequently crashes and kills the driver. Investigation shows its because the engine is developing too much BHP, the torque overstresses the chassis, the suspension collapses on high speed corners and the brakes can't stop the car.
Is that your fault? You did the design for the car after all and surely it should work whatever? Clearly nonsense isn't it?
All sorts of idiots build computers just like that.
Then they sell them to idiots who install all sorts of crap which affects the operation of the machine (think of this as putting a wardrobe on top of a Porsche 911 and complaining when you crash on a bend at top speed).
No software which is even a tiny bit complex is bug-free, just the same as no car or engine is perfectly machined. If it works as intended 99.99% of the time then its "good enough"
Probably a crap analogy but there we go.
Edit - personally I haven't seen a bug which prevents me patching/playing Eve since I returned in 2008. Plenty bugs in gameplay but that's to be expected given the original dev documentation ;) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3531
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mcpate wrote:War Kitten wrote:ITT: People who have no concept of what its like to write software.
Would your engine work properly in every use case scenario?
What if it was hooked up to a snow blower and used at full throttle for 3 hours straight?
What if it was used to power a home-made submarine and submerged in water several times?
How about used to power a conveyor belt in a blast furnace and subjected to 300+ degree temps constantly?
I bet some of those users would discover "bugs" in your engine. :)
Ha! in that case I would use a 1986 BMW K75 power plant after removing it from my snowmobile! Thanks to all for the well illustrated replies. I get it that this 'code' is is exponentially more complex and intra-dependent than an engine. maybe its more like practicing medicine than just wrenching.
That's quite a good analogy - you have to keep the patient eating and breathing all the time you're trying to work out what's wrong and how to fix it. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
731
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
The programming behind a modern computer game is considerably more complex and, perhaps more importantly, more difficult to test than any car engine. Really, that's all there is to it.
/thread.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
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Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:The programming behind a modern computer game is considerably more complex and, perhaps more importantly, more difficult to test than any car engine. Really, that's all there is to it.
/thread.
Not true given that most car engines are controlled by software these days.
Aero engines even more so - in fact if you've ever flown on an Airbus or (finally arriving - probably ) 787 Dreamliner then best pray my wife got the code right as she's been doing that for near enough 20 years
I do agree though - and with non-safety critical stuff then there is always a tradeoff between testing/timescales and cost. Testing often takes a back seat to commercial concerns.
The analogy to which is of course the now infamous Ford Pinto where Ford decided that commercial pressures outweighed known faults at the time of manufacture.
Edit - lol just looked and all the complimentary Dreamliner marketing crap is still in this room. Original date July 8 2007 - now THAT'S what you call slippage |
MeestaPenni
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
217
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mcpate wrote: I hope someone can explain why I cant relate my concrete, absolute, measurable task oriented world to this computer based programming/server/coding/gaming 'try it now and see if it works' world.
Internal combustion engines don't use an "if, then, else" algorithm.
Now, watch the geeks point out how oversimplified my example is.
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1387
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
You're picturing this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/4StrokeEngine_Ortho_3D_Small.gif
If things are working quite right, you can adjust a single valve and correct the whole system. While the system depends on them all to work properly, each piece is independent.
Programming a complex game like Eve is more like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8Zyce56jO6g/TwNZReER9UI/AAAAAAAAABw/0U7QAPZQIZY/s1600/balance.jpg
If you move the rock on top, it affects the balance of everything below it. If you move a rock in the middle, it moves every rock above it AND affects the balance of all those below. You can't simply adjust a single piece an inch to the left, because each piece actively influences the balance of every other piece. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1032
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mcpate wrote:I'm not the typical Eve player in that all I know about computers is where the power button is. This is the first and only online computer game I have ever played. In fact, I use Eve as a resource whenever I have issues with my computers at home. My corp-mates and generally anyone in local, for that matter, can troubleshoot my computer far better than some geek from the big box store. So, could someone explain to me why CCP seems to have such a difficult time with their programming /coding or whatever in tweaking and changing this game we play? Is it REALLY a daunting and difficult task to get right?
When I adjust the valve lash on a shim-under-bucket twenty valve high performance engine, I do so with precision and I double and triple check my work. I check it once again before I button up the engine and reassemble the vehicle. I then test the vehicle and quad-triple check my work. I then have someone else check behind me. The COTTON PICKING thing works before I get paid...end of story.
I hope someone can explain why I cant relate my concrete, absolute, measurable task oriented world to this computer based programming/server/coding/gaming 'try it now and see if it works' world.
terrible analogy is terrible
does that finely tuned engine work as well when you drop it into a 1988 Honda Civic? how about a crown vic chassis
better stick with telling your friends to buy moar ram.
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Mcpate
0ne Percent. Transmission Lost
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think it's interesting that some people go straight to criticizing my analogy and completely miss or ignore the point of answering the original question. Where the analogy serves simply to illustrate the question asked. Where there are two or more Eve players, there is a gank in process...even in the forums. Perhaps we don't need the unwieldy code to continue after all! |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
731
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mcpate wrote:I think it's interesting that some people go straight to criticizing my analogy and completely miss or ignore the point of answering the original question. Where the analogy serves simply to illustrate the question asked. Where there are two or more Eve players, there is a gank in process...even in the forums. Perhaps we don't need the unwieldy code to continue after all! Not really, the question is simple and it has simply been answered: a modern computer program is infinitely more complex in design than that of a car engine.
As pointed out by a poster above some modern engines are controlled by computer software, this does not make that software complex. Eve is a program written by an army of designers, built and worked on over an entire decade. Some of the designers likely have not even met some of the others who wrote core components their code is required to interact with.
You cannot compare a simple combustion engine, and the predictable code written to control it, with the code of a game designed to run across multiple hardware configurations, on multiple operating systems, that was written by multiple designers many of which never actively collaborated.
By all rights it is an absolute miracle that Eve functions at all, and it is certainly a testament to how thoroughly the designers test and rewrite new functionality as it is added.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
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