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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:55:00 -
[181]
is there anything wrong in the thing that Typhoon armed whit megapulses can woop tempest whut 800mms ????????? 
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:55:00 -
[182]
is there anything wrong in the thing that Typhoon armed whit megapulses can woop tempest whut 800mms ?????????
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 20:19:00 -
[183]
Yeah, I broke down a couple weeks ago and have been using megapulses on my Typhoon as well. They work great!
Vaneth,
What I was trying to say is that the reload issue was not specific to projectiles. Of course, no one likes reload, but if projectiles were working better, we should not have any more reason to complain than a hybrid user.
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 20:19:00 -
[184]
Yeah, I broke down a couple weeks ago and have been using megapulses on my Typhoon as well. They work great!
Vaneth,
What I was trying to say is that the reload issue was not specific to projectiles. Of course, no one likes reload, but if projectiles were working better, we should not have any more reason to complain than a hybrid user.
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Noin
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Posted - 2004.08.13 21:08:00 -
[185]
Ehh also note this:
Everything in this game is percentage-based.
I see people with Apoc say that cap usage is such a disadvantage but consider this:
1: Tempest has much worse base cap recharge. My base cap recharge is 10, an Apoc has 25 (dunno actual numbers, sorry). So if I fit a few rechargers that do +25% extra recharge, I get an actual 2.5 cap recharge extra. An apoc user gets 6.25. Thats a huge difference.
2: I don't know if you Apoc users noticed but you have a skill that Tempests don't have. It's called 'controlled burst'
Again, this skill is percentage-based, and since a projectile uses 5 cap per shot and a beam uses 50, the profit of that skill is virtually 0 for a projectile user and very very usefull for a beam user.
Maybe it's a good idea to make a 'projectile/hybrid-only' skill like: Ammo-management.
The skill to fit more ammo into a gun that normal. So instead of having to reload after 10 ( thats only TEN shots!!) projectile and hybrid users may train the skill so they can fit double the amount of ammo at skill-level 5.
Useless for beam users, fairly usefull for hybrids, incredibly usefull for projectiles.
3: (This is a crappy excuse, but still consider it)
Tempest is supposed to be a long range ship. So far, TomB's only excuse not to respond to any of the 'Projectiles is nerfed'-posts is: 'they work as intended'.
Hence I NEED my range, hence I NEED an MWD. Actually, I might even NEED 2. 2 MWD's screw up any setup, shield-wise and cap-wise no matter what but I need the range!
My Tempest goes what? 20m/s faster than your Apoc at base?
My ship needs to be at least 200m/s faster for me to keep out of real big trouble, since I can't hit anything under 40km with a long range setup, and beam users CAN hit stuff under 40km.
/signed Noin, training beams and amarr, betraying the Minmatars
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Noin
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Posted - 2004.08.13 21:08:00 -
[186]
Ehh also note this:
Everything in this game is percentage-based.
I see people with Apoc say that cap usage is such a disadvantage but consider this:
1: Tempest has much worse base cap recharge. My base cap recharge is 10, an Apoc has 25 (dunno actual numbers, sorry). So if I fit a few rechargers that do +25% extra recharge, I get an actual 2.5 cap recharge extra. An apoc user gets 6.25. Thats a huge difference.
2: I don't know if you Apoc users noticed but you have a skill that Tempests don't have. It's called 'controlled burst'
Again, this skill is percentage-based, and since a projectile uses 5 cap per shot and a beam uses 50, the profit of that skill is virtually 0 for a projectile user and very very usefull for a beam user.
Maybe it's a good idea to make a 'projectile/hybrid-only' skill like: Ammo-management.
The skill to fit more ammo into a gun that normal. So instead of having to reload after 10 ( thats only TEN shots!!) projectile and hybrid users may train the skill so they can fit double the amount of ammo at skill-level 5.
Useless for beam users, fairly usefull for hybrids, incredibly usefull for projectiles.
3: (This is a crappy excuse, but still consider it)
Tempest is supposed to be a long range ship. So far, TomB's only excuse not to respond to any of the 'Projectiles is nerfed'-posts is: 'they work as intended'.
Hence I NEED my range, hence I NEED an MWD. Actually, I might even NEED 2. 2 MWD's screw up any setup, shield-wise and cap-wise no matter what but I need the range!
My Tempest goes what? 20m/s faster than your Apoc at base?
My ship needs to be at least 200m/s faster for me to keep out of real big trouble, since I can't hit anything under 40km with a long range setup, and beam users CAN hit stuff under 40km.
/signed Noin, training beams and amarr, betraying the Minmatars
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Wulfgard
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Posted - 2004.08.14 02:48:00 -
[187]
I am very confident CCP will look in this matter and fix the whole Projectile/Tempest mess. But I hope they will do it without nerfing something else (ie hybrids or lasers). Sadly, it has become a pattern, an healthy balance (unerf this but nerf that).
Pilots shouldn't have to train 3 bs races to be able to play this game. I hope CCP realizes it and encourages specialisation, it would add more depth and RP to EVE.
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Wulfgard
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Posted - 2004.08.14 02:48:00 -
[188]
I am very confident CCP will look in this matter and fix the whole Projectile/Tempest mess. But I hope they will do it without nerfing something else (ie hybrids or lasers). Sadly, it has become a pattern, an healthy balance (unerf this but nerf that).
Pilots shouldn't have to train 3 bs races to be able to play this game. I hope CCP realizes it and encourages specialisation, it would add more depth and RP to EVE.
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Nieda
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Posted - 2004.08.14 16:16:00 -
[189]
I just put 6 heavy pulse lasers on my tempest and went doing missions.
Give me a break ...
I forgot when I had so much fun. Warp in 15 and unload carnage. If nothing changes, I'll be selling my tempest for spot money and the game will loose another minmatar pilot.
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2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Nieda
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Posted - 2004.08.14 16:16:00 -
[190]
I just put 6 heavy pulse lasers on my tempest and went doing missions.
Give me a break ...
I forgot when I had so much fun. Warp in 15 and unload carnage. If nothing changes, I'll be selling my tempest for spot money and the game will loose another minmatar pilot.
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2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.08.14 17:42:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
|
Posted - 2004.08.14 17:42:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
Greetings Grim |
Bohr
|
Posted - 2004.08.14 20:02:00 -
[193]
 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Even though I don't fly one, I must agree - Tempest pilots have been sorely shafted. Their weapons are mostly inept, and I can only empathize with the exodus away from Minmatar ships overall.
3 mil for a tier 2 Tempest BPO says a lot :)
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Bohr
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Posted - 2004.08.14 20:02:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Even though I don't fly one, I must agree - Tempest pilots have been sorely shafted. Their weapons are mostly inept, and I can only empathize with the exodus away from Minmatar ships overall.
3 mil for a tier 2 Tempest BPO says a lot :)
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Juanita Loup
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Posted - 2004.08.14 22:26:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
something very wrong with that maths as it treats the two things a seperate items rather than the combined effect they have.
and as for there suposed 50% bull**** they need to get ther maths books out again and look into radial maths and physics, the change is not a meer multiple its a culmilitive effect that works more one a gradient curve, example of that is this.
1 x chance to hit
1/4 chance to hit
1/16th chance to hit
and so on
thats what its so hard to hit things with turrets the higher your tracking the less you suffer, butif you slip a little ie projectile turrets you suffer alot.
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Juanita Loup
|
Posted - 2004.08.14 22:26:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
something very wrong with that maths as it treats the two things a seperate items rather than the combined effect they have.
and as for there suposed 50% bull**** they need to get ther maths books out again and look into radial maths and physics, the change is not a meer multiple its a culmilitive effect that works more one a gradient curve, example of that is this.
1 x chance to hit
1/4 chance to hit
1/16th chance to hit
and so on
thats what its so hard to hit things with turrets the higher your tracking the less you suffer, butif you slip a little ie projectile turrets you suffer alot.
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.14 23:43:00 -
[197]
Before things get out of hand and the thread gets locked or negated as a positive outlook on the state of the pride of the minmater fleet I would like to say to the dev team that they only have to look at the "balance" of tier2 battleships.
I really dont want this thread to turn into an Amarr rules, or Raven pwns you, its more about the offensive vs defensive capability of the tempest compared with all other 100mil+ bs.
Just because the projectile doesnt use any cap argument has gotten really old considering the bonuses cap using guns have coupled with the fact they do more dot. Including major factors that armor tanking is greatly outweighing shield tanking atm and you make the top of the line minmater ship equivalent if not less than a geddon....heck use eve-i.com's ship analogy tool and run a compare on the tempest and geddon and you will see that the geddon is clasified in the final result as a better ship - and this is without the need of tracking enhancers/damage mods which the tempest NEEDS to even compare with any other t2 bs.
This isnt about tempest being flavour of the month, this is about the best ship the minmater have to offer being able to stand toe to toe with an equivalent bs and giving it a run for its money at optimum range - and this atm simply isnt the case.
The last thing I want to see is nerfs to other ships (of similar class at least) and I can handle the "jack of all trades" tag that the tempest has to deal with but atm with the current setup a tempest is nothing more than an over expensive t1 bs with bad tracking and no class defining ability - this is what needs to be addressed/changed.
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.14 23:43:00 -
[198]
Before things get out of hand and the thread gets locked or negated as a positive outlook on the state of the pride of the minmater fleet I would like to say to the dev team that they only have to look at the "balance" of tier2 battleships.
I really dont want this thread to turn into an Amarr rules, or Raven pwns you, its more about the offensive vs defensive capability of the tempest compared with all other 100mil+ bs.
Just because the projectile doesnt use any cap argument has gotten really old considering the bonuses cap using guns have coupled with the fact they do more dot. Including major factors that armor tanking is greatly outweighing shield tanking atm and you make the top of the line minmater ship equivalent if not less than a geddon....heck use eve-i.com's ship analogy tool and run a compare on the tempest and geddon and you will see that the geddon is clasified in the final result as a better ship - and this is without the need of tracking enhancers/damage mods which the tempest NEEDS to even compare with any other t2 bs.
This isnt about tempest being flavour of the month, this is about the best ship the minmater have to offer being able to stand toe to toe with an equivalent bs and giving it a run for its money at optimum range - and this atm simply isnt the case.
The last thing I want to see is nerfs to other ships (of similar class at least) and I can handle the "jack of all trades" tag that the tempest has to deal with but atm with the current setup a tempest is nothing more than an over expensive t1 bs with bad tracking and no class defining ability - this is what needs to be addressed/changed.
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Riggwelter
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Posted - 2004.08.14 23:47:00 -
[199]
I was a little board tonight and trying to decide if i should really exchange my tempest for an Amar ship so did a little maths to work out roughly the minimum speed a ship must be going at your optimal range for you to have a chance to hit. Please note no other factors were considered than the tracking speed of the turret and the optimal range. Heres the list with in order the gun, the optimal range and finally the minimum speed of target the gun can track at optimal range.
Projectile
1400mm 40000m 360m/s
1200mm 28000m 315m/s
800mm 4000m 144m/s
650mm 3600m 144m/s
425mm 3200m 144m/s
Laser
Tachyon 44000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Beam 35000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Pulse 25200m 756m/s
Meag Beam 40000m 612m/s
Mega Pulse 28000m 756m/s
Hybrid
425 Rail 48000m 478m/s
350 Rail 36000m 420m/s
Dual 250 Rail 24000m 420m/s
Ion Blaster 5000m 230m/s
Neutron Blaster 6000m 260m/s
Electron Blaster 4000m 184m/s
The first and most obvious think that comes as no surprise is the close range Projectiles. Some stupid Minmatar designer needs the sack for producing a gun that cant track its intended target at optimal range. We all know most battleships are capable of 144 m/s so you cant hit them at the guns optimal range.
This looks like it should also be an issue for Blasters too but they do track better have a bonus for tracking on a mega and have a much higher normalised damage factor to make up for it.
The solution for me would be relatively simple i think an increse in the optimal range of the Projectiles is all that is needed to correct the situation. I would prefer to see at least an increase of 10km on the 1400mm and 1200mm with the optimal on the lows moving up to 12km 800mm 10km 650 and 8km 425.
I really dont see why projectile guns should have such a low tracking ability and also have such low normalised damage factors. Either the damage or the tracking should more than make up for the extra energy other weapons use but both seems to me to be way over the top.
They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say. |
Riggwelter
|
Posted - 2004.08.14 23:47:00 -
[200]
I was a little board tonight and trying to decide if i should really exchange my tempest for an Amar ship so did a little maths to work out roughly the minimum speed a ship must be going at your optimal range for you to have a chance to hit. Please note no other factors were considered than the tracking speed of the turret and the optimal range. Heres the list with in order the gun, the optimal range and finally the minimum speed of target the gun can track at optimal range.
Projectile
1400mm 40000m 360m/s
1200mm 28000m 315m/s
800mm 4000m 144m/s
650mm 3600m 144m/s
425mm 3200m 144m/s
Laser
Tachyon 44000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Beam 35000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Pulse 25200m 756m/s
Meag Beam 40000m 612m/s
Mega Pulse 28000m 756m/s
Hybrid
425 Rail 48000m 478m/s
350 Rail 36000m 420m/s
Dual 250 Rail 24000m 420m/s
Ion Blaster 5000m 230m/s
Neutron Blaster 6000m 260m/s
Electron Blaster 4000m 184m/s
The first and most obvious think that comes as no surprise is the close range Projectiles. Some stupid Minmatar designer needs the sack for producing a gun that cant track its intended target at optimal range. We all know most battleships are capable of 144 m/s so you cant hit them at the guns optimal range.
This looks like it should also be an issue for Blasters too but they do track better have a bonus for tracking on a mega and have a much higher normalised damage factor to make up for it.
The solution for me would be relatively simple i think an increse in the optimal range of the Projectiles is all that is needed to correct the situation. I would prefer to see at least an increase of 10km on the 1400mm and 1200mm with the optimal on the lows moving up to 12km 800mm 10km 650 and 8km 425.
I really dont see why projectile guns should have such a low tracking ability and also have such low normalised damage factors. Either the damage or the tracking should more than make up for the extra energy other weapons use but both seems to me to be way over the top.
They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say. |
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