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That Handsome Frog
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Rule #1. Don't read any posts longer than the op's. |
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc Mordus Angels
152
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:
I didn't say that risk-averse people were bad, I said that they would have better-looking KB stats when compared against someone who was not risk averse. The key point is that you can't tell if someone is just aggressive or bad.
Like I said it's limited information but it's still useful as long as you remember the limitations.
Quote: So in your eyes, part of what makes someone a skilled pilot is access to expensive stuff? So, I could increase my skill by getting myself a loki boosting alt?
What makes a skilled pilot is understanding and taking advantage of the game mechanics to achieve their objectives. Using boosters and implants and selective use of high end items and ships fall into the category of using game mechanics to their advantage. Additionally none of those things are automatic "I-win" buttons and the use of expensive implants and modules/ships incur an additional risk that can and will show up on their kill boards if they aren't successful in using them.
Quote: I wasn't speaking of all PVP entities, just a few. Case in point, I recently learned that Noir. has a hard requirement of a 4/1 K/D ratio to join. There's a difference between checking someone's history to make sure they aren't flying 250mm artillery abaddons and determining their eligibility based on KB efficiency.
It's a sandbox they can set what ever requirements they want. If it works for them good for them if they lose out on good pilots because of it then it's their loss and someone else's gain.
Quote:
Of course. You'd be doing it wrong because the corporation in question was doing it wrong. The point of this thread is to suggest that those corps stop...doing it wrong.
The wrong part isn't that some corporations have recruiting standards you don't agree with. The wrong part is you're thinking you are in a position to tell them what's right or wrong. If you don't like their practice then you join someone who works in a way that you agree with. Or you form your own corporation and show them "how it's done" .
BTW I've fought Noir and they're skilled PVPers so obviously their recruiting standards are accomplishing their goals. What makes you think you are qualified to tell them what they should be doing it?
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
364
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:25:00 -
[33] - Quote
Quote:What makes a skilled pilot is understanding and taking advantage of the game mechanics to achieve their objectives. Using boosters and implants and selective use of high end items and ships fall into the category of using game mechanics to their advantage. Additionally none of those things are automatic "I-win" buttons and the use of expensive implants and modules/ships incur an additional risk that can and will show up on their kill boards if they aren't successful in using them.
Any player who has the money to afford such things knows that they exist already. And...seriously? Implants and boosts aren't complicated to use. You fly your ship normally, except now you're faster and better and vastly more likely to win a particular fight. They aren't I-win buttons, but particularly against opponents who will not be expecting your ship to have such inflated stats, they give a gigantic advantage. Quote:It's a sandbox they can set what ever requirements they want. If it works for them good for them if they lose out on good pilots because of it then it's their loss and someone else's gain.
Interestingly enough, I don't recall calling for CCP to disband corps that do this. I recall suggesting that it was counterproductive to their goals.
Quote:The wrong part isn't that some corporations have recruiting standards you don't agree with. The wrong part is you're thinking you are in a position to tell them what's right or wrong. If you don't like their practice then you join someone who works in a way that you agree with. Or you form your own corporation and show them "how it's done" .
*Facepalm*
Let's shut down the Ships and Modules subforum. No one in there has the right to tell others how to fit their ships...and if they fit their ships poorly then it's their loss and someone else's gain. |
Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
571
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
To the OP
I thought that the Cerb died because of its EM hole
Can i join Rooks and Kings now please :) I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
FeralShadow
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
96
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Some people only care about stats. Some people only care about winning. It's the same tired horse we're beating here, folks. My hope is that eventually the battle reports that CCP is implementing become good enough so people can recreate how fights occured. In that way you can really see where people moved, who died, and who did what. "I do believe in karma. -áThat means that whenever I do something sh**y to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
606
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
THE L0CK wrote:
And you just fell under the bus.
That was my CLONE. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
857
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Posted - 2012.04.26 21:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:Some people only care about stats. Some people only care about winning. It's the same tired horse we're beating here, folks. My hope is that eventually the battle reports that CCP is implementing become good enough so people can recreate how fights occured. In that way you can really see where people moved, who died, and who did what. You only started aligning when you got to 11.3% armor? Noob. My analysis clearly shows aligning at 18.7% is better. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
473
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Posted - 2012.04.26 22:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:THE L0CK wrote:And you just fell under the bus. That was my CLONE. I hope you had kept your clone updated
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
102
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Posted - 2012.04.26 22:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:So, as is well known a lot of the more serious business PVP organizations throughout EVE - from nullsec alliances to hisec mercenary groups - generally have some sort of requirements they use to filter 'unskilled' applicants. These range from things like skillpoint requirements to kill/death requirements to killboard efficiency. They do these thinking that it will bring them better applicants, ensuring that only 'good' pilots enter their ranks. However, virtually every method used by PVP organizations to prescreen applicants is horrendously faulty and better at attracting KM whores than skilled pilots (they are not always the same thing). First off is skillpoints. To some extent these can be a good screening tool if all you're looking to do is filter complete newbies. I don't see the point, as competent newbies can become knowledgable and useful with only a minimum of assistance, but I guess some people don't like answering questions. SP only retains its usefulness up to about 3 million. Once you achieve some bare minimum experience with the game, knowledge and competence ceases to be tied to SP. I can think of month-old characters in my old corp that are better PVPers than some years-old baddies I've run into. So, unless your goal is to prescreen trialers, this is bad. The most popular method seems to be checking out an applicant's killboard history here. There's a ton of problems with this approach. The only thing that a killboard entry says is that X ship(s) used offensive modules on Y ship that was fit like Z shortly before Y exploded. The most absolutely terrible and elitist corps will look at things like killboard efficiency..a stat that has more to do with the size of the gang you fly in and how cheap you are in fitting your ships than anything else. The better ones will look at specific kills and look for signs of skill or incompetence, but this is still imperfect. A variant of this, that I didn't know existed until I read some Noir. guy's sig, was kill/death ratio, which is quite possibly the most offensively stupid prescreening requirement I've ever heard of. The following are a list of important things that could affect a pilot's killboard stats without being any sort of indicator about their skill. -Bitchiness. If you are a risk-taker, you will have significantly worse KB efficiency and a lot more deaths than someone who utterly refuses to engage if he knows he might lose. Some people just go into engagements they know they are very likely to lose in the off chance that his opponents are bad or he gets lucky. This does not make them bad, but it certainly does make them look worse on the KB. -Implants, expensive modules, and boosts. A lot of people run with expensive hardwirings/pirate implant sets or neutral boosting alts. Losing the latter is almost impossible and, even if it happens, will not reflect upon your main on the KB. Implants only show up if you get podded, which will pretty much never happen if you happen to be in lowsec. Expensive mods don't show up when you get a kill; only when you die. To the killboard, a Wolf with halos and loki boosts that kills a Rupture is identical to a Wolf without any special mods killing a rupture...and yet the latter is far more indicative of pilot skill. But when screening applicants, you won't know which of those two each person falls into. -Opponent's skill. A lot of "impressive" kills come as a result of your opponent either being a baddie, or making a crucial mistake. Sometimes these will show up on the killboard in the form of fits, but most will not...And even the ones that do show up in the fit are often subtle and won't be noticed by someone casually flipping through. Quick, can you find the hidden incompetence that led to this poor bastard's demise? It's the Fury heavy missiles he was using against the smallest ship in the game. But of course, few people would examine the mail in detail enough to notice that, and many stupid mails won't have any such indication at all. So how the hell do you prescreen applicants if you only want above-average pilots in your corp? There are few ways to actually determine someone's skill without flying with them. The Tuskers have an interesting requirement, which demands solo above-class ship kills. Of course, this does not necessarily measure skill, but it -does- ensure that the applicant is ballsy and willing to risk his ship in combat he's not guaranteed to win. So, the only reliable way to ascertain skill is to fly with them. However, many people miss the fact that someone does not need to be in your corp to fly with them. Invite your applicants on a roam. The baddies will sort themselves out quickly. TLDR stop using superficial quantitative measures of "skill" in your srsbusiness ELITE PVP corp. Good post
We generally check out kb and ask for SP count for record keeping, but we don't let usually let people in until they've gone on a roam or two with us so we see how they fly ^^
If someone's got bugger all PvP experience and low SP count but they do well in comms and get along with everyone they tend to get in haha There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
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Posted - 2012.04.26 22:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
I love the high school, social boolsh!te that comes with NEEDING to be accepted by other high school professionals in online games, only to be publicly denied. This is popcorn-worthy... :) |
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Corbin Blair
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:KrakizBad wrote:Which Leet corp denied you? Goonswarm. I paid the security deposit and everything but I just wasn't pro enough for them You just did it all wrong, you simply deserve what you got because: You haven't took the necessary time use "search" function and read forums. You haven't read properly Goonswarm wiki because if you did, you should have read those red letters saying if you pay isk to join Goonswarm you're being scamed. You did it all wrong. Your sarcasm detector broken? |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
192
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
Two incredibly important things can be gleened from looking at killboards from a recruitment perspective
1. Activity and actual PvP experience. Somebody who was in a very active corp that generates a lot of kills but gets ~5 kills a month or can go months in that corp between kills generally means they don't PvP all that much. Its also a good gauge to see how much PvPing somebody has actually done. Recruits will tell you anything they think you want to hear.
2. Sh*t fitters. People who lose a lot of poorly fit ships are either not very good at ship fitting or that special type of person who refuses to listen to anybody's advice. If somebody who's got say, 1200 killls, 120 losses and 2 years of experience, but consistently (and recently) loses say Autocannon/Heavy Missile Ravens, that is somebody you don't want. |
Nephilius
Knights of Athena Star Council
365
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Verte Sinkon wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:KrakizBad wrote:Which Leet corp denied you? Goonswarm. I paid the security deposit and everything but I couldn't fulfill the t2-fit velator requirement What is a velator.
It's what a woman uses when she is feeling a little frisky. I love flying titans in Jita, setting bubbles in Rens,-áor firing off bombs from my stealth bomber-áin Dodixie!-á Just think, if Eve wasn't a sandbox, none of this would be possible! |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
183
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
We take people mostly based on the person rather than the Skill points. Having skills in the right area helps of course, but Skill point requirements can be lowered for the right people. In eve its always has been for me, and my corp WHO you fly with, not what you fly in.
Plus we ask stupid questions and get you drunk.
Would plug corp but think thats crossing a line, |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
368
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Posted - 2012.04.27 06:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Two incredibly important things can be gleened from looking at killboards from a recruitment perspective
1. Activity and actual PvP experience. Somebody who was in a very active corp that generates a lot of kills but gets ~5 kills a month or can go months in that corp between kills generally means they don't PvP all that much. Its also a good gauge to see how much PvPing somebody has actually done. Recruits will tell you anything they think you want to hear.
2. Sh*t fitters. People who lose a lot of poorly fit ships are either not very good at ship fitting or that special type of person who refuses to listen to anybody's advice. If somebody who's got say, 1200 killls, 120 losses and 2 years of experience, but consistently (and recently) loses say Autocannon/Heavy Missile Ravens, that is somebody you don't want.
These are of course both true. I wasn't railing against the use of KBs in general, just how they are sometimes interpreted.
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Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
781
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Posted - 2012.04.27 06:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote: TLDR stop using superficial quantitative measures of "skill" in your srsbusiness ELITE PVP corp.
You are absolutely right.
This is why the CFC is currently dominating the game.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Sian Ka'an
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
0
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Posted - 2012.04.27 07:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
I am surprised nobody mentioned the awesome average points per kill stat yet. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
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Posted - 2012.04.27 08:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
Verte Sinkon wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:KrakizBad wrote:Which Leet corp denied you? Goonswarm. I paid the security deposit and everything but I couldn't fulfill the t2-fit velator requirement What is a velator.
Velator (n) (plural Velators) 1: One who Velates.
Related Terms: Velatrix Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
239
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Posted - 2012.04.27 08:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
OP - What do you suggest instead? If you're in a player corp then war-dec is just something you have to accept is coming with it, regardless of your play-style. ~CCP |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
64
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Posted - 2012.04.27 09:12:00 -
[50] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:To the killboard, a Wolf with halos and loki boosts that kills a Rupture is identical to a Wolf without any special mods killing a rupture...and yet the latter is far more indicative of pilot skill. But when screening applicants, you won't know which of those two each person falls into.
[...]
There are few ways to actually determine someone's skill without flying with them. The Tuskers have an interesting requirement, which demands solo above-class ship kills. Of course, this does not necessarily measure skill, but it -does- ensure that the applicant is ballsy and willing to risk his ship in combat he's not guaranteed to win.
You're a little bit contradicting yourself there - a requirement like the one Tuskers make encourages people to fly around with an offgrid booster and implants.
Whilst this is somewhat true, we do require applicants to now get vouches from current members, which can be obtained by a few hours of roaming. So it's not just "on paper" performance we consider - we also consider "on field" performance (amongst other things).
There's no getting around that we have a high number of boosting alts per member, at least compared to the norm. However, the majority of us fight outnumbered on a daily basis and love it. We use boosting alts to augment our ships - our enemies still have a very good chance at killing us (1 boosted frigate vs a balanced 20 man gang with tackle is still heavy skewered) as can be seen on our killboard. We don't mind losses and actually feel kind of bad when our efficiency gets too high - it's all about the fight(s) with us, rather than some silly number which is already skewered in favour of larger gangs within which the average member contributes far less and generally enjoys himself less.
As for killing ships larger than yours or numerically superior, it's entirely possible to do it without links as shown here (first fight without links against a ship that should have on paper smashed me, no pirate implants either!) |
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