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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
122
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Posted - 2012.04.28 14:32:00 -
[571] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
Ok I reread "how carebears killed nullsec pvp", as ridiculous as the idea was. I get what he was saying, you need someone or something for the pvpers on either side to fight over. At the time, it was mining fleets. Over time, miners presumably found this less and less appealing.
That horse has bolted, I don't think you can entice them back. You(or CCP) need to come up with another conflict driver in nullsec.
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
56
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Posted - 2012.04.28 14:34:00 -
[572] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so.
In complete honesty, just between you and me, I saw the title and was like "meh, not sure any sort of argument can lead me to believe that..."
It is quite outrageous, I agree. What is even more outrageous is that he's right. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
122
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Posted - 2012.04.28 14:35:00 -
[573] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:Takseen wrote:Vaju Enki wrote: EvE Online is not the game for you.
My subscription fees say otherwise. So if I subscribe to a Tango dance class, then demand them to teach me Baseball because I payed for GODDAMN BASEBALL, my argument still holds? c'mon maaan! We all signed up for this, some us will like the game other won't. I'm sorry you lost your money, I truly am.
I subscribed to a game that had a vast, single-shard universe/server, a wealth of ship, module and skill choices, and a vast selection of space related activities to choose from. One of which was pvp, which I concluded was not in my interest any more then mining was. That game has not fundamentally changed since I arrived. Its the zealots on either side who want to either turf everyone bar the newbies out of highsec, or prevent all violence in highsec that are trying to fundamentally change the game. And I'm not a fan of that. |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
58
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Posted - 2012.04.28 14:42:00 -
[574] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:
The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
Ok I reread "how carebears killed nullsec pvp", as ridiculous as the idea was. I get what he was saying, you need someone or something for the pvpers on either side to fight over. At the time, it was mining fleets. Over time, miners presumably found this less and less appealing. That horse has bolted, I don't think you can entice them back. You(or CCP) need to come up with another conflict driver in nullsec.
All that is required is a proper risk/reward distribution. Highsec gave too much rewards for the lack of risks. Hell, I would not mind there being a 100% safezone if the rewards there are 0%. Want 99% risks? Then you get 1% rewards. At least they can still be AFK and keep doing what they are doing, without the fear of losing their ship.
But wait, what? They ask for better rewards? Why do they even need rewards in the first place if they have nothing to replace. The argument falls flat pretty hard at this point. I'm sure if carebears described in the OP could mine docked in the station they would. |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
66
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Posted - 2012.04.28 14:43:00 -
[575] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so.
Don't go around blaming his ability to write as an excuse for your inability to read, understand or remember.
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
58
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Posted - 2012.04.28 15:09:00 -
[576] - Quote
Takseen wrote:
I subscribed to a game that had a vast, single-shard universe/server, a wealth of ship, module and skill choices, and a vast selection of space related activities to choose from. One of which was pvp, which I concluded was not in my interest any more then mining was. That game has not fundamentally changed since I arrived. Its the zealots on either side who want to either turf everyone bar the newbies out of highsec, or prevent all violence in highsec that are trying to fundamentally change the game. And I'm not a fan of that.
You represent/decribe the "compromise" state between PVPers and Carebears. However, as the OP points out, carebears are not interested in a compromise state and they confirmed it to him on several occasions.
None of the "pro leet PVPers" I had the chance to discuss this with said they were completely against a form of "safer" space. They are quite aware trial accounts need that space, as do the occasional solo or extremely casual players. But here is the catch: EVE can't be full of trial accounts, solo or extremely casual players. |
Hamshoe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2012.04.28 15:15:00 -
[577] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
You represent/decribe the "compromise" state between PVPers and Carebears. However, as the OP points out, carebears are not interested in a compromise state and they confirmed it to him on several occasions.
How convenient is it that the 'carebears" are all share an identical opinion? Not too mention that the OP was able to talk to them all.
I mean, except for that feature the kind of sweeping generalization the OP is peddling would be instantly recognized as utter BS.
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
165
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Posted - 2012.04.28 15:23:00 -
[578] - Quote
I thought I could write some long posts.. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
124
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Posted - 2012.04.28 15:27:00 -
[579] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Takseen wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so. Don't go around blaming his ability to write as an excuse for your inability to read, understand or remember.
He could have said just as much with a quarter of the words. He could have written it a lot better too. If a point's worth making, its worth making well. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
124
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Posted - 2012.04.28 15:43:00 -
[580] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:Takseen wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:
The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
Ok I reread "how carebears killed nullsec pvp", as ridiculous as the idea was. I get what he was saying, you need someone or something for the pvpers on either side to fight over. At the time, it was mining fleets. Over time, miners presumably found this less and less appealing. That horse has bolted, I don't think you can entice them back. You(or CCP) need to come up with another conflict driver in nullsec. All that is required is a proper risk/reward distribution. Highsec gave too much rewards for the lack of risks. Hell, I would not mind there being a 100% safezone if the rewards there are 0%. Want 99% risks? Then you get 1% rewards. At least they can still be AFK and keep doing what they are doing, without the fear of losing their ship. But wait, what? They ask for better rewards? Why do they even need rewards in the first place if they have nothing to replace. The argument falls flat pretty hard at this point. I'm sure if carebears described in the OP could mine docked in the station they would.
I disagree, I think the whole concept of needing a "worker caste" that the pvpers need to fight over in nullsec is not useful. It'd be like needing someone to play as the flag in Capture the Flag games. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
511
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Posted - 2012.04.28 15:44:00 -
[581] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Takseen wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so. Don't go around blaming his ability to write as an excuse for your inability to read, understand or remember. Inability to read is a major problem.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Testerxnot Sheepherder
DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew
144
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Posted - 2012.04.28 16:18:00 -
[582] - Quote
Ignorance is a major problem.
See: Goons |
Jessie42
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
72
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Posted - 2012.04.28 16:20:00 -
[583] - Quote
Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote:Ignorance is a major problem.
See: Goons
Yep, Goons are the ignorant ones here. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
253
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Posted - 2012.04.28 16:21:00 -
[584] - Quote
Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote:Ignorance is a major problem.
See: Snotshot
FTFY Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
17
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Posted - 2012.04.28 16:28:00 -
[585] - Quote
I'm laid up today nursing a bum knee and so I've got some time on my hands. I read the OP's entire "manifesto" and I will say, I agree with some points, and I disagree with others.
I think hisec does represent too much reward for too little risk. I also think mining in general should be more active play and less AFK click button, get bacon. It's my opinion that carebear miners are missing the point of EVE, not because they mine, but because they seem to believe they should be able to do so in absolute safety. I think mining should be engaging, and something that requires strategy, effort, cunning, planning, and cooperation - not something that can be done while watching a movie.
I don't agree that the solution to the problem is mass interdiction of hisec miners, though. As the OP alluded to, I think this will only drive further whining from ganked carebears, and further sentiment from CCP that "something must be done to fix this."
I personally think that the OP's problem has to be fixed by CCP, by getting them to re-balance risk vs. reward across the board.
My thoughts would be:
1. Make reward strictly proportional to risk, and make risk scale inversely with system sec level. In a 1.0 system, risk can be minimal as long as reward is also minimal. Players should not be able to profit from playing it safe. Conversely, in a 0.0 system, rewards should be huge and so should be risk.
2. This will require that CCP re-introduce risk into null. Null should never be safe space for anyone, let alone the bluefest it has become. Nullsec should be vast and profitable, a wild west frontier, and it should always be contested with war raging constantly and borders shifting daily. Change sov mechanics and logistics to make holding small areas of space easier, and holding large areas of space extremely difficult (if not, impossible). Let opportunity draw enterprising players to lowsec and null, while allowing them to scale their risk incrementally.
I think such a re-balancing would go a long way to making EVE a more interesting game. But I'm sure there are hisec carebears and nullsec carebears - both profiting from the status quo - who would vehemently disagree with me.
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Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
253
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Posted - 2012.04.28 16:35:00 -
[586] - Quote
I have here a video of what the crowd discussed in the OP wants to turn our beloved EVE Online into. http://youtu.be/cD69PAIqiYo Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Plekto
The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us
10
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Posted - 2012.04.28 16:48:00 -
[587] - Quote
Hatch Nasty,
There is a problem with your logic, though.
0.0 is controlled by essentially a bunch of mafia families of different sizes and you simply have to be LET IN as an individual. You cannot actually go there and make isk. Is this fair? I'm not going to judge here. It's just the way it's become. New players have virtually no opportunity to do anything BUT stay in high sec, which means mining and industry is practically forced upon them. It's become so bad that new player groups have decided to do things like Red vs Blue to create some sense of artificial player-driven combat in high sec.
The isk has to be moved to where it's the most risky and where neither side profits from staying where/as they are and maintaining the status quo. Because as it is, the game would honestly play better as two separate servers.
q: what's the most dangerous and least-traveled area in eve? You know where that is. Low Sec. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
124
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Posted - 2012.04.28 17:20:00 -
[588] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:
2. This will require that CCP re-introduce risk into null. Null should never be safe space for anyone, let alone the bluefest it has become. Nullsec should be vast and profitable, a wild west frontier, and it should always be contested with war raging constantly and borders shifting daily. Change sov mechanics and logistics to make holding small areas of space easier, and holding large areas of space extremely difficult (if not, impossible). Let opportunity draw enterprising players to lowsec and null, while allowing them to scale their risk incrementally.
You're mixing two different ideas here. Nullsec can't be a wildwest frontier AND a constantly shifting mass of wars between power blocs. It was probably closer to a wildwest frontier in the beginning, but now that the big powers are firmly entrenched, only the wars and politics are relevant. Wormhole space is (or was) a better example of a new frontier.
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1248
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Posted - 2012.04.28 18:00:00 -
[589] - Quote
This thread has turned into ranting and is not constructive.
Thread locked.
Please use the Features & Ideas section if you have suggestions how to improve EVE Online, also I would like to point you to the CSM and the devblog discussions. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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