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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 15:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Esmenet There is nothing challenging in making one weapon system subpar/useless. Its just bad gamedesign.
I agree, but I wouldn't be surprised if clever players found a way to manage the sleeper agro in such a manner that drones are no longer being targeted.
All we need now is a bonus to Taunt skill on the Dominix.
your wish is my command.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.09 16:17:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Krevos Moritir adapt and die.
This is W-Space we're talking about here. If you're not prepared to die, don't go.
--
Originally by: CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.09 16:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
Originally by: Krevos Moritir adapt and die.
This is W-Space we're talking about here. If you're not prepared to die, don't go.
Funny, that's the mentality many have before even logging in to EvE.
If you're not prepared to die, don't undock.
I guess you just need to be MORE prepared in w-space, hahahah ...
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Esiel
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.09 17:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Faife OP, W-Space is too hard for you. I recommend not going there.
There is nothing challenging in making one weapon system subpar/useless. Its just bad gamedesign.
This is it exactly, you would think by the responses that I am demanding that sleepers be easier than level 4 missions. NO NO NO, I am talking about a weapon system that is made obsolete I am not asking to make the sleepers easier.
Making drones useless is what CCP was after then they succeeded, but if it wasn't then they need to make some changes. Asking for changes to a system does not allways mean nerf or boost. *
Beat the dead horse |
Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.03.09 17:27:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 09/03/2009 13:10:56
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 09/03/2009 12:58:45
i think i will be bear-tanking these sleeper spawns.
to do this you need a point, some ewar and a fast interceptor.
And some extra underwear.
Except they'll neut the cap off that interceptor in extremely short order.
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.03.09 17:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Esiel This is it exactly, you would think by the responses that I am demanding that sleepers be easier than level 4 missions. NO NO NO, I am talking about a weapon system that is made obsolete I am not asking to make the sleepers easier.
Making drones useless is what CCP was after then they succeeded, but if it wasn't then they need to make some changes. Asking for changes to a system does not allways mean nerf or boost.
Exactly. They could make Sleepers ignore drones and STILL switch targets if they really wanted to. Actually I'm not sure why they didn't do it that way unless none of the devs have ever used drones and don't understand how they work...
The missile point defence thing was a great analogy. Could you see the devs giving the Sleepers the ability to shoot down all incoming missiles? Their (seemingly unanimous) decision to de-ball drone users when it comes to sleepers is quite baffling and very poor design/logic. Two thumbs down CCP! ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Draku Rykenen
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.03.09 17:48:00 -
[37]
Alot of comments seem to be determined to deny any usefulness to drones.. So My proposition is that sleepers should also carry mirrors which reflect 99% of laser damage and highly advanced defender style missiles which can hit all types of material rounds in route to the target. =D
I dunno why people love to scream about drones and love to see drone users get the shaft..
Drones are already by far the worst weapons system in game. You can kill them in a snap and they have lower potential DPS output and they take time to get to the target and they can be out run.
At least we could have their priority reduced a little bit in w-space so they are a little useful?
asking to much... lol
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Contralto
Dreamworks labs
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Posted - 2009.03.09 18:49:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Contralto on 09/03/2009 18:50:43 Hate to pour yet more cold water on the drone party but last night We experienced some of the interference to normal ship functions while in an intermediate Hi-sec accessed WH. Velocity increased from 150 to 233 ms on my kronos, but My drone control range dropped from 57km to 41.5km.
This severely effected the usefulness of Sentry drones,and to a lesser extent combat drones, especially as many spawns were at 70km.
It is going to be difficult to decide the best fit when you will never know what ship functions will be nerfed, or enhanced.
A good reason to have an Orca along for on the fly refits.
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Rpeg
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.09 18:52:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Esiel Edited by: Esiel on 09/03/2009 12:20:02 I was messing around in W-space on sisi and I found out something rather interesting. My drones where killed quite quickly by the sleepers even thou I was the target.
While I like the idea of smarter AI this makes drones useless and eliminates a lot of dps and makes small group engagements even harder than they really should be. I like the fact that sleepers are harder but they really shouldn't completely eliminate an offensive ability from a ship. (Imagine if missiles where useless because the sleepers had point defense.)
I hope CCP re-thinks this and let us drone users be able to compete with others.
(edit: spelling)
I believe the solution here is that you need to change your strategy. If they take away your drones, then you need to try something else. Simple as that. -- autechre - ep7 - track 1: rpeg estevancarlos.com |
Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 18:53:00 -
[40]
I used my drones to draw the dps off of me for 10 seconds, worked well as a strategy.
boom .. drama bomb was a direct hit, expect GoonSwarm posts on CAOD any second! |
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Ginako
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Posted - 2009.03.09 18:53:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri Q: Why are the Sleepers targeting my drones in combat?
A: What would another player do in a PvP encounter upon noticing that most of your damage output is coming through drones? As a drone user, try to distance yourself from the 'I'm soloing a lvl4 mission' mindset. You need to get creative, we have done extensive playtesting on this and found this to be reasonably balanced.
We do hope this Blog covers most of the concerns you had regarding the new NPC features being introduced in Apocrypha.
From the new DevBlog What Have We Done! --------------
Flying Minmatar is like strapping yourself to an office chair and firing Uzi's as you roll down a flight of stairs! |
Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:00:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Spurty I used my drones to draw the dps off of me for 10 seconds, worked well as a strategy.
This is why I think it will be changed. Not because drone users complain about their dps being killed, but because non-drone users complain about drone users getting free, cheap tanks.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:18:00 -
[43]
In my experience, it's nearly impossible to pull back small or medium drones fast enough for them to survive when they get targeted by even normal NPCs. What happens is the delay after you give the command gives them a few more seconds to shoot the drones and that is plenty of time for them to get wtfpwnt. I'm afraid that sleepers could (and probably will) have drones targeted before they even appear on the "drones in space" section of the drone window, making this problem even worse.
Thankfully, I don't fly drone boats. I just kinda feel sorry for anyone who does.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Elysarian
Minmatar dudetruck corp
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Contralto Edited by: Contralto on 09/03/2009 18:50:43 Hate to pour yet more cold water on the drone party but last night We experienced some of the interference to normal ship functions while in an intermediate Hi-sec accessed WH. Velocity increased from 150 to 233 ms on my kronos, but My drone control range dropped from 57km to 41.5km.
This severely effected the usefulness of Sentry drones,and to a lesser extent combat drones, especially as many spawns were at 70km.
It is going to be difficult to decide the best fit when you will never know what ship functions will be nerfed, or enhanced.
A good reason to have an Orca along for on the fly refits.
70km spawns are fine by me, my 1200mm Artys eat ships of any size at that range.
not having the ability to utilise drones for close-in frigates would be more of an issue for me (guess I'll have to take some friends in destroyers/frigates?).
I do feel the pain of the drone boat pilots though... but only have one over-used comment: "Adapt Or Die" ===================================== It smells of spoon! ===================================== |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:44:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Nova Fox on 09/03/2009 19:45:39 Use Smaller drones and many more of them. Heavy drones is asking to lose them all. while small drones can not only hold attention but recover faster, with some remote armor reps its quite easy to keep them alive between encounters as well.
Sleeper Frigates couldnt one shot any of my drones and I had durability to 3 atm in a non drone boat. However I can see the dominix being more useless than drones are however.
Oh they do tend to primary repair bots if your wondering. =============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Elysarian
Originally by: Contralto
70km spawns are fine by me, my 1200mm Artys eat ships of any size at that range.
not having the ability to utilise drones for close-in frigates would be more of an issue for me (guess I'll have to take some friends in destroyers/frigates?).
I do feel the pain of the drone boat pilots though... but only have one over-used comment: "Adapt Or Die"
at 70kms you got about 3-4 seconds to lock and kill, theyll be on top of you by then, npcs MWDing and kiting you... fun. =============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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Elysarian
Minmatar dudetruck corp
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:56:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Nova Fox
Originally by: Elysarian
Originally by: Contralto
70km spawns are fine by me, my 1200mm Artys eat ships of any size at that range.
not having the ability to utilise drones for close-in frigates would be more of an issue for me (guess I'll have to take some friends in destroyers/frigates?).
I do feel the pain of the drone boat pilots though... but only have one over-used comment: "Adapt Or Die"
at 70kms you got about 3-4 seconds to lock and kill, theyll be on top of you by then, npcs MWDing and kiting you... fun.
oh... ouch? ===================================== It smells of spoon! ===================================== |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:58:00 -
[48]
It depends.
If Sleepers have some WTFOMG tracking that allows a Sleeper BS to easily track and eliminate light drones in fast orbit around it, then yeah, nerf it.
Sounds to me, though, that other sleeper ships (esp. fast-tracking frigs/cruisers) are the ones popping the drones, which is nothing less than a similar player ship could do. If this is true, then you can all cry some more and adapt or die.
According to the recent dev blog, a low-end sleeper BS was supposed to be about as good as a well-skilled BS pilot, a weak sleeper BS as powerful as a low-skilled BS pilot, etc...Yes, they're going to be hard.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:04:00 -
[49]
My biggest beef with this is anyone with drones V will be just as effective at spewing out drone chaff to reduce incoming DPS as someone with 9M SP in drones.
And finding a different box to think in (read: adapt by training a different race's ships and weapon systems or die) is not a solution. You may be fine with it because it's not your weapon system being removed from viability. But if you accept this as a good thing your day will come.
Maybe everyone is wrong and we will discover the magic way to use drones in w-space. For now that doesn't look the least bit likely.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:11:00 -
[50]
So now we have:
Active tanking Passive tanking Shield tanking Armor tanking Buffer tanking Speed tanking Range tanking Hull tanking (lols)
and now we get to add Drone tanking!
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:16:00 -
[51]
Actually, it gives me an idea for a strategy against Sleepers:
Multiple drone boats with high DPS drones, and armor logistics. Drones fly, logistics ships lock and keep drones repped, drone pilots assist.
If you keep your ship DPS against Sleepers low enough and spread your targets out properly, you might be able to get them chasing your constantly-repped drones, allowing you to chew them up.
Just a quick thought, I have no idea how practical it is, but it has the merit of being able to be done with cruiser-class ships.
Corp killboard-How to Kill Logoffskis |
Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:16:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden If Sleepers have some WTFOMG tracking that allows a Sleeper BS to easily track and eliminate light drones in fast orbit around it, then yeah, nerf it.
This is exactly what is happening. Those monster plasma beams (or whatever they are) that the Sleeper BS's use eat even the smallest fast orbiting drone like it's buttered popcorn. ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Ydyp Ieva
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:18:00 -
[53]
The weaponsystem drones is to start with already a bad design. Take out the drones of an domi/ishtar and they are just sitting ducks. That is the biggest problem overall with drones, they are to easely destroyed. Now if we already had subsystem targetting I wouldn't mind, as then you could also take out someones turrets/launchers. But that isn't the case right now. All I use droneships for is just missioning, for pvp I rely on other weaponssystems that can't be destroyed.
So yes making sleepers apperently targetting drones first is a bad gamedesign, but to be honest on small encounters with drone ships in pvp I force the guy to store his drones away or lose them. Is even more effective then ecm ---------------------------------- None of yet! |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:18:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 09/03/2009 20:18:59
Quote: This is exactly what is happening. Those monster plasma beams (or whatever they are) that the Sleeper BS's use eat even the smallest fast orbiting drone like it's buttered popcorn.
In which case people need to stop *****ing about the sleepers targeting drones and start *****ing that the sleepers have WTFSUPERTRACKING
However...sleeper ships aren't solo. How do you know it's the ship being orbited that's taking down the drones? How do you know it's not the cruisers/frigs?
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 09/03/2009 20:18:59
Quote: This is exactly what is happening. Those monster plasma beams (or whatever they are) that the Sleeper BS's use eat even the smallest fast orbiting drone like it's buttered popcorn.
In which case people need to stop *****ing about the sleepers targeting drones and start *****ing that the sleepers have WTFSUPERTRACKING
However...sleeper ships aren't solo. How do you know it's the ship being orbited that's taking down the drones? How do you know it's not the cruisers/frigs?
Because at one point all ships were shooting me except the BS which was popping my drones that were orbiting it. ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:36:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Khornne Scoop drones, release drones, ????, profit?
Even sentrys get killed to fast for this sometimes.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Tsabrock
Gallente Circle of Friends
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:51:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Tsabrock on 09/03/2009 20:53:49 A friend and I were able to spend a little time in an "easy" w-space area, and we went through a couple of encounters with each of us in an Ishtar. This was early Saturday, before the most recent mirror.
She was not as well tanked as me, having some guns fitted and using wings of mixed-drone sizes. I was fitted in a perma-active omni tank with 2xCentum A-Type Officer Armor Repairers, but no gunes and the only 'offensive' module on the ship itself was a Tech 2 Target Painter. I was using a mix of T2 Heavy Drones and T2 Sentry Drones.
My friend lost a couple drones in some of the earlier waves, but we were able to fight them reasonably well. Surprisingly, the Sleepers focused on us more often... and the latter waves of Sleepers hit HARD (my tank barely held). I didn't loose any Heavies, but I did loose one Sentry so fast I didn't know it was even targeted until I heard it go "pop".
I want to think my Target Painter might have helped keep agro on me, but that's pure speculation. We did reel-in our drones when new waves of Sleepers would show up,making sure we were being targeted before re-deploying drones. That always has helped in PvE, and it did help with the Sleepers as well, just not as reliably.
Unfortunately, with Remote Armor Repairing, you have a very short range on those modules compared to what ranges a drone can fly, rendering them mostly useless for combat use (I keep a small one equipped for post-combat repairs). I did have a concept a while ago with a Myrmiddon or Ishtar fitted with multiple remote repairers and attempt Sentry Drone Tanking, but I have not had a chance to see how well that tactic would work (not very well I'm guessing, but I gotta try it). --- I don't read the forums all the time here - if you read something here and want to respond to me directly, EVE-Mail me, and I'll eventually read it. |
Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.09 21:03:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 09/03/2009 21:03:42 we need to look at the aggro mechanic itself i think. If it's like wow where the main target is just the one with the most threat generated (which is how it sounds so far) then a drone user should fit for ways of generating lots and lots of threat.
edit: quick apology for WoW reference, but it seemed relevant.
My hope would be is that you can generate your threat via nos/neut/guns/RR, w/e for a while then after you've generated enough threat to yourself you can deploy your drones. "DPS very very very slowly..." with drones to not get the aggro on them. It really makes drones suck still because longer you wait the less damage you're going to be doing total, but it seems the only solution i can come up with so far.
Example: [Ishtar, WH] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Amarr Navy Armor Explosive Hardener Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
10MN Afterburner II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Medium Capacitor Battery II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Medium Remote Armor Repair System II Small Nosferatu II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
Anti-Explosive Pump I Anti-EM Pump I
If you have a couple ishtars then your tanks will be quite formidable (i'm told sleeper BS rats can actually miss ships, apparently not drones though) so HAC's may still be a reasonable choice. But the point would be that your ishtars support eachother, use blasters, RR, and ewar to generate a heft amount of threat. After a bit of time and you feel that sufficient threat is generated then you could perhaps drop sentries and sick all of them on one target to hopefully bring it down very quickly.
Now if this is NOT the case, and some idle drones still just get wtfbbq'd then i'd be mad. I would want to drop my sentries, have them not shoot but wait, and then pull the frigs/cruisers out to lower transversal and then try and quickly eliminate them.
This should hopefully be the case and just mean patience and careful management of drone threat. But if it means sleepers just annihilate drones upon release then something needs looking at.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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Ragnar Foulberg
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Posted - 2009.03.09 21:51:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Ragnar Foulberg on 09/03/2009 21:51:33 What about carries with fighters? How effective are they against the sleepers?
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UMEE
Tactical Initiative
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Posted - 2009.03.09 21:52:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Draku Rykenen
Drones are already by far the worst weapons system in game.
i think u meant missiles. missiles.
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