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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.03.10 18:05:00 -
[1]
Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines... The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.
Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.
So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM
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Xindi Kraid
Gene Works
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Posted - 2009.03.10 18:13:00 -
[2]
What? you mean people should be forced to employ countermeasures? Why that's outrageous, My ship should be immune to ECM and have a godlike tank and 20 pounds of EWar through my sheer willpower alone. -Xindi Kraid: Delivering acerbic wit and scathing comments with just a dash of 'stab you in the eye' |
Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.03.10 20:12:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid What? you mean people should be forced to employ countermeasures? Why that's outrageous, My ship should be immune to ECM and have a godlike tank and 20 pounds of EWar through my sheer willpower alone.
Amen, I wish I didn't have to fit shield extenders and hardners to defend myself from your weapons too. It would mean I would have more midslots available for ECCM
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Larsonist
Darkwave Technologies Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.03.10 21:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Larsonist on 10/03/2009 21:52:20 The following link explains just how powerful a falcon is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcArnepkhv0 Larsonist > i still enjoyed the pew pew though, all the pos sh!t ive been doing lately had me feeling like smeagle without his precious. |
Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2009.03.10 22:11:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Stil Harkonnen on 10/03/2009 22:11:58 In fixing ECM, you'd also need to fix the falcon. It's a dual fix
The argument that falcons have paper thin tanks is void. As far as I'm concerned, if a falcon pilot tried hard enough, they could fit just a good of a tank as any other recon cruiser pilot(which isn't a very good one). But wait, The falcon's range is so ridiculously huge that they don't even need to fit a tank. People who can't stand to fight without their precious falcons say "well you should carry ships around with you to counter falcons". Any ship specifically fit to fighting falcons could be doing so much more if it didn't have to fit specifically to fight falcons....therefore, no, we should not have to fit specific ships in our gang just to counter ONE (oh wait, sometimes multiple) falcon(s). All other recons operate well within the reasonable engagement distance, making them part of the fight, too. Here, falcons are definitely more powerful than other recon ships.
Falcons (and ECM in general) are also able to take multiple ships COMPLETELY out of combat, logistics, etc. No other recon can do this. Arazu's for example, can tackle from long distances. cool. it can also damp out 1 target very well (but still allowing it to engage all the ships that are close to it, notice). The arazu can also maybe take 2 ships out of cambat, but only if your entire fleet operates at long ranges. Not very practical. The arazu does its job fine, the falcon does its job TOO well. Being able to take multiple targets completely out of the fight is def OP.
All recons have realistic counters to them. propulsion modules make webs less effective. sensor damps can be negated with sensor boosters. tracking disruptors can be negated with tracking enhancers. ECM can be negated by ECCM.....which does nothing other than MAYBE stop you from being jammed....has no realistic use other than countering ECM which you may not even encounter in the current roam....my overheated ECCM'd thorax gets jammed by a noob griffin consistently....OP. All recons have realistic and helpful counters except Falcons. The counter to a falcon does not always work and has no uses other than countering ECM. fitting ECCM MIGHT fix the problem of getting jammed while taking up precious mid slots.
1)nerf falcon range, but give a little bit more survivability being closer to combat. 2)make ECM's "chance" based mechanic more balanced because a 90% jam rate isn't really "chance" to me. 3)make ECCM do something other than give you more sensor strength. Unless I'm mistaken, sensor strength does nothing for your ship.
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Lucia Wilber
Cupcake Brigade
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Posted - 2009.03.10 22:19:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Lucia Wilber on 10/03/2009 22:20:51 Or here's a pair of ideas for ECM.
If you fail to jam a target, that target becomes immune to ECM for the duration of the failed jam. In other words, if one Falcon fails to jam a target for 20 seconds, that target is now immune to all ECM attempts from anyone for 20 seconds.
-OR-
Bring in diminishing returns. Each time a ship is jammed, it develops resistance to ECM. Each following jam lasts half as long. First jam is 20 seconds, second jam is 10 seconds, third is 5 seconds. After that, the target is immune to jamming for a minute or so.
Edit: Missile users get FOF missiles that they can fire without a lock. If you're not going to fix ECM (which CCP admitted is broken, so I heard), give us turret users an FOF form of turrets.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.10 22:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/03/2009 22:58:03
Originally by: Lucia Wilber If you fail to jam a target, that target becomes immune to ECM for the duration of the failed jam. In other words, if one Falcon fails to jam a target for 20 seconds, that target is now immune to all ECM attempts from anyone for 20 seconds.
Will be horribly exploited. Say hi to zero-skill alts using incorrect T1 racials to make you immune to jamming.
Quote: Bring in diminishing returns. Each time a ship is jammed, it develops resistance to ECM. Each following jam lasts half as long. First jam is 20 seconds, second jam is 10 seconds, third is 5 seconds. After that, the target is immune to jamming for a minute or so.
Not only does it break the rules of EVE (no other offensive module suffers diminishing returns), but it will be instant death to all ECM ships. Make that change, and you now have (at most) 35 seconds to live against any sniper battleship within 250km.
As for the idea that TDs/damps/webs have a counter, sorry, but that's bull****. If you're fitting a tracking computer/sensor booster/etc, you're fitting it because you need it, not because you hope to counter ewar. For example, a typical sniper battleship requires those tracking computers to reach fleet ranges, one TD will slash its range more than enough to keep it from ever hitting the primary, and I guarantee you no sniper battleship (except maybe a Rokh operating on the very low end of sniping ranges) is going to have spare slots for extra TCs to counter the ewar, even if it wouldn't be a futile effort due to the stacking penalty. The result: one module takes it out of the fight with 100% effectiveness and no counter, as long as the ewar pilot knows how to use his ship properly.
If you want to add similar "must use it correctly" restrictions to ECM, say goodbye to the chance-based mechanic and say hello to 100% jamming when it is used correctly. -----------
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Lucia Wilber
Cupcake Brigade
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Posted - 2009.03.10 23:46:00 -
[8]
I hadn't considered the exploit of having a friend hit you with crap ECM.
As for people saying that "Falcon Whiners" have nothing to cry about, I personally haven't encountered any serious issues with the Falcon because I'm not quite skilled enough to go out PvPing just yet. However, ask yourself this:
If the Falcon (And ECM in general) isn't overpowered/broken, how come it's the only form of E-War people complain about? If it's truly on-par with the others, wouldn't the complaints about ECM be matched by complaints about Tracking distruption, neuts/vamps, and target painting?
If the Falcon specifically isn't overpowered, then how come fleets are gauged based on either A) How many falcons they bring or B) How much Falcon-specific counters they have?
You think Falcons are balanced? Then how come your only defense is "You only hate Falcons because you don't know how to counter them!"? Really? You think a ship is balanced when a whole slew of combat tactics, ship loadouts, and fleet composition exists specifically to counter that one ship? I mean, we're not even talking about a group of tactics to counter Force Recon ships as a whole, but about tactics and loadouts made to counter one particular ship!.
You still think Falcons are balanced and that ECM doesn't need attention?
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2009.03.11 00:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines... The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.
Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.
So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM
I know a certain anti pie corp that has more then double kills with falcons then any other ship.
No it doesn't suck its the most useful gang ship in the game. Tank irrelevant, dps irrelevant. Mitigating a small gangs dps by about 30-80% (depending on ships and numbers) THAT is relevant.
Its probably one of the most specialized ships in the game. It sucks at everything else but it excels so much at what it does it impacts the game tremendously.
Got Cooch?
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Therlite
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Posted - 2009.03.11 00:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lucia Wilber Edited by: Lucia Wilber on 10/03/2009 22:20:51 Bring in diminishing returns. Each time a ship is jammed, it develops resistance to ECM. Each following jam lasts half as long. First jam is 20 seconds, second jam is 10 seconds, third is 5 seconds. After that, the target is immune to jamming for a minute or so.
this crap broke my undead rogue, don't make it break my falcon too
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arbiter reformed
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.11 02:07:00 -
[11]
Edited by: arbiter reformed on 11/03/2009 02:08:15 ccp already said there looking at ecm ships ranges which meens nerfbat, but tbh i wish theyd make a more fun mechanic, i wish caldari had a good solo recon that i could roam with, like pilgrims or summin, be more fun for everyone i think rather thjan this army of falcon alts, i must admit i have two tho but all caldari racials all the time. and whatever anyone says a falcon is the best falcon counter otherwise id have cerb alts, which do not work as well in reality
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Pvt Public7
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.11 04:14:00 -
[12]
Make ECM drop max locked targets. If current locked targets > jammed locked targets, de-lock targets at random. Obviously, that'd need balancing and a randomiser element. And, of course, max locked targets value would go from integer to decimal. --- SWA was here IAC is a loser |
Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2009.03.11 06:06:00 -
[13]
falcon is one of the only true ew ships in eve (rook, scorp etc. being the others). Make the other ew ships be ew ships, wth does the huggin need 6 guns + drones when it's a fricken ew ship it's main offense should be ew not even fricken webs it should be using EW..... aside from that only problem I see is how the falcon is soo much greater than the rook.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.11 06:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines... The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.
Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.
So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM
Please don't make us actually calculate the odds of this. If you're a well skilled pilot in a falcon your odds of jamming an average frig/cruiser(non EW based) are massive regardless of eccm, and lets face it, BS aren't much better off. You can easily hit figues of over 90 with 2 racial jammers, stagger that, factor in relock time and poof, you end up with people whining on the forums... - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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Adaera
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Posted - 2009.03.11 06:54:00 -
[15]
At this point I'm resigned to the Falcon getting nerfed. The only question is - how badly will it be?
... And how many nanoseconds will it take for people to start bawwwing about remote rep blobs instead? ___________________
I for one welcome our new bee overlords |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.11 07:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines... The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.
Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.
So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM
We've already had this discussion.
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Bodhisattvas
Counter Errorist Unit
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Posted - 2009.03.11 08:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines... The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.
Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.
So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM
It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!
Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!
Take the ecm out of game period.
If falcons pilots complain give them a pilot seat fitted with a dildo and change the ship bonus to 10% dildo girth and 20% less batteries required per level.
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DARTHxFREE
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.03.11 08:49:00 -
[18]
even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u /join Cheeze & Whine Club
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.03.11 11:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: DARTHxFREE even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u
You do know that ECCM needs to be of the correct sensor type and that they are an active module?
I believe there was some objective discuassion of ECCM effectiveness here
The quality of nerf Falcon/ECM threads is really going down.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.11 11:46:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 11:47:54
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!
It screws YOUR lame ass game up because all you wanna do is fly your gank tank setup, while others bring counters like falcons and add other levels to combat.
Originally by: Bodhisattvas Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!
WTF were you doing in combat with a un-sieged dread???...playing undock games and hoping to get a kill with your drones????.......lame indeed.
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.11 11:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: DARTHxFREE even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u
You do know that ECCM needs to be of the correct sensor type and that they are an active module?
I believe there was some objective discuassion of ECCM effectiveness here
The quality of nerf Falcon/ECM threads is really going down.
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 11:47:54
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!
It screws YOUR lame ass game up because all you wanna do is fly your gank tank setup, while others bring counters like falcons and add other levels to combat.
Originally by: Bodhisattvas Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!
WTF were you doing in combat with a un-sieged dread???...playing undock games and hoping to get a kill with your drones????.......lame indeed.
Obvious trolls are obvious.
Come on guys at least have some worthwhile content in your posts to lure us into responding. - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.11 12:10:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 12:10:15
Originally by: vostok
0 content only troll.
If you do not have the ability to counter a point with facts trying to dismiss it instead is a poor substitute.
1. Why fly a un-sieged moros against a drone swarm (and if so fit a freaking smart bomb ffs).
2. Removing a mechanic because it makes poorly prepared and naively fitted ships/gangs lose is absurd, it should be applauded for doing so as it forces a skill and fitting evolution among those wishing to improve.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.03.11 12:15:00 -
[23]
Edited by: daisy dook on 11/03/2009 12:15:58
Originally by: vostok
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: DARTHxFREE even with 3 ECCM ur dps is cut in half from still freqent jamming, this would mean a BS could not break a Brutix tank, ECCM are a waste of mid's, best defence module are sensor boosters and target +gun/drone that falcon before it perma jams u
You do know that ECCM needs to be of the correct sensor type and that they are an active module?
I believe there was some objective discuassion of ECCM effectiveness here
The quality of nerf Falcon/ECM threads is really going down.
Obvious trolls are obvious.
Come on guys at least have some worthwhile content in your posts to lure us into responding.
So you didn't check out the discussion on ECCM effectivness?
I was just checking that the 3 ECCM modules had been turned on and were of the correct sensor type before I dismissed the reply as a troll or went to explain to the poster that if his 3x ECCMed BS was soaking up all of the ECM for his gang then those 3 slots of ECCM were well placed.
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antony hartless
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Posted - 2009.03.11 12:19:00 -
[24]
Edited by: antony hartless on 11/03/2009 12:25:06 Edited by: antony hartless on 11/03/2009 12:20:49 Stop complaining about falcons being overpowered. Check on fleet battles, see how many falcon are destroyed, think how many weeks and months pilots have invested to get those skills. Beside that each race is good at something'minmatar have speed, no cap reqiuirement for turrets and dealing different type of dmg, amar have good tank and large drone bay, galente are the best at drones and bonuses for dmg, and caldari have jamming and missile. Train the skills and fly falcons, or fit ECCM. ECCM works fine, just fit one. I have used in battles a domi with 2x ECCM and got 76 sensor strenght, never being jammed even I saw a falcon keeping trying to jamm me. I am tired to see noobs complaining all the time, so developers use their time to nerf instead bringing something new and well done. Besides, the only good thing at falcons is they jamming, oposite with arazu that have useful both dampners and warp disruptor range bonus, etc. Or lets nerf everithing, and we will fight only in noob ships.
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.11 12:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: daisy dook
So you didn't check out the discussion on ECCM effectivness?
I was just checking that the 3 ECCM modules had been turned on and were of the correct sensor type before I dismissed the reply as a troll or went to explain to the poster that if his 3x ECCMed BS was soaking up all of the ECM foir his gang then those 3 slots of ECCM were well placed.
Obviously it depends on the ships in question but the fact is, to avoid being jammed most of the time you really need more than 1 eccm module on every ship in your gang, and mid slots aren't so free and easy that you can refit like that and still function against a gang that just brought a falcon.
Guess a curse/pilgrim is always a good bet to have in a gang they tend to upset falcons.
TBH, I'm not that bothered by falcons, I mean they are a bit OP but no more than the arazu was. I'm just bummed out that once again eves 2 best races are caldari and amarr for almost every conceivable role. - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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xeneon
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.11 12:32:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.
That's like saying a dreadnought sucks because it struggles to hit frigates.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.03.11 12:40:00 -
[27]
Originally by: vostok
Originally by: daisy dook
So you didn't check out the discussion on ECCM effectivness?
I was just checking that the 3 ECCM modules had been turned on and were of the correct sensor type before I dismissed the reply as a troll or went to explain to the poster that if his 3x ECCMed BS was soaking up all of the ECM foir his gang then those 3 slots of ECCM were well placed.
Obviously it depends on the ships in question but the fact is, to avoid being jammed most of the time you really need more than 1 eccm module on every ship in your gang, and mid slots aren't so free and easy that you can refit like that and still function against a gang that just brought a falcon.
Guess a curse/pilgrim is always a good bet to have in a gang they tend to upset falcons.
TBH, I'm not that bothered by falcons, I mean they are a bit OP but no more than the arazu was. I'm just bummed out that once again eves 2 best races are caldari and amarr for almost every conceivable role.
The poster definately mentioned being unable to fire 50% of the time in a BS.
Can't refit... sounds like the racial jammer issue on the Falcon really - each Falcon will tend to have of each racial so for the situation to happen as the poster suggets on a BS then I would suggest that he soaked up all the jammers leaving the rest of his gang free to kick bottom.
I fear Cerbs/Zealots/Eagles etc more than Pilgrims or Curses when flying a Falcon. If the Pilgrim/Curse gets into rtange then I've messed up but a Cerb easily has the range and has space to fit ECCM.
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.11 13:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: daisy dook
The poster definately mentioned being unable to fire 50% of the time in a BS.
Can't refit... sounds like the racial jammer issue on the Falcon really - each Falcon will tend to have of each racial so for the situation to happen as the poster suggets on a BS then I would suggest that he soaked up all the jammers leaving the rest of his gang free to kick bottom.
I fear Cerbs/Zealots/Eagles etc more than Pilgrims or Curses when flying a Falcon. If the Pilgrim/Curse gets into rtange then I've messed up but a Cerb easily has the range and has space to fit ECCM.
I'm surprised by that, wouldn't have expected cerb, zealot or eagle to have 200km targeting range, but then I guess, people are looking to take out falcons now lol.
Also I'm fairly sure that the point about eccm wasn't an at all realistic situation, it was just trying to prove a point. - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.03.11 13:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: vostok
I'm surprised by that, wouldn't have expected cerb, zealot or eagle to have 200km targeting range, but then I guess, people are looking to take out falcons now lol.
If I could always act at 200km I would still be wary of those ships, however I'm not always able to deploy my full range tank making those ships more deadly.
Originally by: vostok
Also I'm fairly sure that the point about eccm wasn't an at all realistic situation, it was just trying to prove a point.
If the point about ECCM was not realistic then it should not be put forward, it only weakens the position for an ECM nerf/ECCM boost if people are making rediculous claims (btw, when making any claim about the effectiveness of ECCM the person should note how many jammer were applied to them, after all with enough jammers being applied the change of jamming will tend towards 100%).
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.11 14:10:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Malcanis on 11/03/2009 14:10:03
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Tired of hearing the Falcon Whines... The Falcon sucks... it has a wetpapersack tank and does the DPS of a new rookie ship.
Your problem is with ECM. Which can be countered with ECCM. And is chance based. Alot of you have apparently never sat and watched cycle after cycle of ECM NOT jam your target.
So rather than whining about the Falcon, come up with a descent change to ECM
It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!
Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!
Take the ecm out of game period.
If falcons pilots complain give them a pilot seat fitted with a dildo and change the ship bonus to 10% dildo girth and 20% less batteries required per level.
BUFF SHIPS I LIKE!
NERF SHIPS I HATE!
MY FIFTEEN DOLLARS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FIFTEEN DOLLARS!
In related news, I like strawberry cheesecake better than chocolate cake.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.03.11 15:53:00 -
[31]
Personally I think they should address the range issue (150km + jams seems a little excessive in a cruiser hull) and then see where they're up to. Bringing the Falcon in viable engagement range of other ships might help a lot.
Comparing the Falcon to any other e-war boat you have to consider the bonuses.
If you really want to "fix" ECM Calamari need another form of e-war.
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Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2009.03.11 16:02:00 -
[32]
ECM as a system is balance atm, although I dislike its mechanic.
Falcon is a special case ofc, it can do something the other recons cant, but the real deal is its cloaking capability; the ability to disable ships from a safe distance combined with an ambush factor makes it a must-have in any serious gang, and dulling down the tactical playground. If the falcon's jamming strenght got toned down without touching the rook, which would then have a much better jamming capability than the falcon, then much less players would complain about it. Afterall BBs and Scorps were with us now forever and I didnt see them get called overpowered.
I cant say any ship is overpowered its just the systems they use which flips the balance around. I remember the curse going from pwnmobile to useless-junk to decent recon again. Then there were the ecm drones, suddenly gallente was king at jamming. ECM jamming went through alot of changes since the begining, first it was point based (and IMO it was the best system, together with a dampner squad you could achive cycle-jamming; increasing number of ships jammed, a well deserved reward for teamwork), then it recieved range limitations and became chance based, and finally recieved strenght reduction. Caldari ofc get their ECM bonus' and are uber.
Now if we nerf the falcon, we could nerf its ecm strength or range which would force it into close range where it cant survive. In any case instead we could change the ECM back to a point based system. Chance based systems is IMO the worst you can do to balance a MMO, suddenly its "luck" that becomes the deciding factor of a tactics game. Especially in a player versus player environment like EVE where that last 5% RoF gives you the edge, "luck" is such a bad element. In a point based system you take out "luck" and add teamwork (remember cycle-jamming).
Caldari will be ofc better at it with their mid slots and ecm bonus', but other races could also integrate ECM into their tactics, resulting in more fun suprises. You would need more coordination with your team mates, and thats what all of us wants in the end: more tactics and teamwork instead of mindless blobs of the same old setup.
The point system would have higher points for more specialized ships like recons, cov ops, logistics and less for gunboats; so f.ex. you could either focus your jamming power on those 2 BSs or jam that recon. Falcon would still be stong, able to jam enough to hold its ground, but it wouldnt be a wtfjammobile anymore since with a point system that gang of cruisers might as well have caldari racial jammers which, combined, would shut the falcon down. ECCM would increase your ecm points, and remote ECCM would have a cool down of 60secs but unjams a ship instantly.. just some ideas for more fun pvping
- Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.11 16:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: TraininVain Personally I think they should address the range issue (150km + jams seems a little excessive in a cruiser hull) and then see where they're up to.
Bringing the Falcon in viable engagement range of other ships might help a lot.
Caldari are the race with the range bonuses, its on their turrets ships as well fyi...are you gonna nerf the eagle ect ect as well?.
And what system do you suggest you use as a bench mark to use for a "viable engagement range"....BS pulse...like they are not already OP compared to the other races comparative systems.
How about putting falcons within "viable" blaster range instead...
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.03.11 16:14:00 -
[34]
Leave the Falcon alone. Leave ECM alone. "Fix" ECCM, perhaps improve overloading on it? Add an ECCM Burst module? ---
Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.03.11 18:43:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 11/03/2009 18:46:38
Originally by: Lucia Wilber
If the Falcon (And ECM in general) isn't overpowered/broken, how come it's the only form of E-War people complain about? If it's truly on-par with the others, wouldn't the complaints about ECM be matched by complaints about Tracking distruption, neuts/vamps, and target painting?
Huh? Want some complaints, here they come:
- TDs: rendering my ACs ineffective with just 1 module, nothing I could do to counter as there is no way to get the lost falloff back
- neuts: taking all my cap and cant do anything about it, my inject doesnt help as I need it anyway on my setup to be stable
- webs (with bonus): take my speed away, nothing I could do against it, cant ever get in range to use my own web
- RSDs: making my frig/ceptor unable to tackle with just one module, nothing I could do to counter as there isnt even a slot for a counter mod
- TPs (lol): make my small ship vulnerable against oversized missiles/turrets which deal way too much damage for my ship to tank
I forget something there?
Edit: to say somewhat on topic, the only thing on ecm that is worth considering to change is the off-race strength on racials. Should be lower or removed completely.
Its obvious if you do some real research in the topic, instead of ranting.
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.11 21:14:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
- TDs: rendering my ACs ineffective with just 1 module, nothing I could do to counter as there is no way to get the lost falloff back
But your drone can still fight and your weapons have the potential to be able to still deal damage if you move yourself in such a way to mitigate the effects of the TD. It also doesn't affect neuts, ew you yourself may be using or missiles, meaning you have the potential to stop this effect.
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
- neuts: taking all my cap and cant do anything about it, my inject doesnt help as I need it anyway on my setup to be stable
It takes a fair amount of neut to end the cap on a ship and if you do in fact use autocannons and you're not just a troll, you can still shoot.
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
- webs (with bonus): take my speed away, nothing I could do against it, cant ever get in range to use my own web
Webs just had their effect reduced and once again, when under the effects of webs you can still fight, giving you personally the potential power to be able to remove the webbing effect via EW, killing the target, forcing them to run with drones, neuting them till they cant use it any more... and if the target is inside web range you can combat web by webbing them yourself.
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
- RSDs: making my frig/ceptor unable to tackle with just one module, nothing I could do to counter as there isnt even a slot for a counter mod
A single ECM module on a decent skilled falcon pilot has a 100% change of permajamming maybe 80% (probably more) of frigate class ships. Damp however can be mitigated by just moving closer, and regardless of the risks of this, it can be mitigated. Also damps have very little effect against close to mid range ships as soon as they reach tech 2 cruiser level.
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
- TPs (lol): make my small ship vulnerable against oversized missiles/turrets which deal way too much damage for my ship to tank
Overtanking is something that bothers me massively, and the smaller your ship is the less the effect of the a target painter. Especially since now missiles get a bonus for hitting something larger than their explosion radius the same as turrets. And once again, you can still fight and do something about it. The increased damage doesn't stop you from mitigating the damage against you yourself, via tracking disruptor's for example. Anyway to mention it only increases the damage you would take anyway, since eve is a such dynamic environment you should never count on being able to tank anything anyway.
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Edit: to say somewhat on topic, the only thing on ecm that is worth considering to change is the off-race strength on racials. Should be lower or removed completely.
Its obvious if you do some real research in the topic, instead of ranting.
Well you see the offrace strength isn't really the issue, the chances of getting hit by that are minimal anyway, its the fact that you can get jam str on a single jammer up to around the 14 mark and then use it at a range where nothing can hit you unless it is specifically fitted just to take you out, in which case, you just run away.
A single falcon can lock down maybe 4 non-EW, un-eccm'd ships, no other recon can do that. The arazu used to be able to do it because it used to be possible to get a single damp to reduce target speed and range by 90%! This meant it and a damage ship could lock down as many ships as the gallante recon had jammers. Now however, an arazu with average skills using scripts can reduce 1 target by what, 75, 80%? 1 sensor booster and your recon will just die after the target sends drones after it.
And despite the curse and pilgrim being very good ships, they can be caught and killed by good pilots, the min recons even more so, if we're really honest, they were fragile ships before the speed nerf, though pinning them down was very hard. Since the speed nerf they're even more so, this is balanced! - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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Bodhisattvas
Counter Errorist Unit
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 11:47:54
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
It screws the game up.....lame asses just bring as much ecm as they can because they know they can win with it...human sodding nature!
It screws YOUR lame ass game up because all you wanna do is fly your gank tank setup, while others bring counters like falcons and add other levels to combat.
Originally by: Bodhisattvas Ecm drones are a joke, near enough perma jammed by ec30's in a moros!
WTF were you doing in combat with a un-sieged dread???...playing undock games and hoping to get a kill with your drones????.......lame indeed.
Assuming stuffs to further your argument is indeed lame split arse.
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Phal boy
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:09:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 11/03/2009 12:10:15
Originally by: vostok
0 content only troll.
If you do not have the ability to counter a point with facts trying to dismiss it instead is a poor substitute.
1. Why fly a un-sieged moros against a drone swarm (and if so fit a freaking smart bomb ffs).
2. Removing a mechanic because it makes poorly prepared and naively fitted ships/gangs lose is absurd, it should be applauded for doing so as it forces a skill and fitting evolution among those wishing to improve.
yada yada yada yakkety yakkety yak post with your main you cod piece.
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Seriya
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:29:00 -
[39]
The counters to ECM are rubbish. Fix them.
- Sensor Backup Arrays could actually be backup sensors that function through the first jam in addition to adding to sensor strength. You'd need jamming one additional time for each backup arry you fit.
- Make activated ECCM reset any sucessful jam cycles on you in addition to raising your sensor strength.
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tropic89
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Posted - 2009.03.12 02:51:00 -
[40]
stfu you whinning pos ***got cry babies who are ****ing the bane of eve online, go get the **** out of here and play wow, you sorry ***got whinners.
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