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Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:08:00 -
[1]
I got this idea after reading/posting in this thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1020232&page=1
There are many real world physics aberrations involved in high speed space travel.
They involve optics, time, mass and energy.
For example:
1. There really is a blue and red shift when traveling at light speed. Eve's latest patch has dumbed down that effect when warping. 2. There are optical distortion, sort of a pinch and punch effect as well. 3. Objects traveling at relativistic speeds will contract in the direction they are traveling. Yes, they become flatter to the stationary observer. Something someone waiting stationary at a gate would see as a ship warps in. 4. Time dilation: As a ship travels towards the speed of light, time slows down on that ship. I don't see how this can be of use on EVE though.
Something else that's been bugging me.
When in motion, say using afterburners...you do not slow down after turning the AB off. An object in motion remains in motion unless affected by an outside force. If anything you would need thrusters in the opposite direction to slow down.
I'm still waiting for black holes (not worm holes), quasars, pulsars, super nova, comets and other odd objects you find in the real universe to show up...and the hazards associated with encountering them.
Anyway, these are just a few thoughts.
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Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:12:00 -
[2]
I think the new warp effect simulates time dilation quite well. ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong." |
Quantar Raalsken
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:16:00 -
[3]
im not rly one to hate the fact that its non-realistic but yes i want super-novae and black holes and stuff like that
tho i had a nice lol with my "EVE defies Science" thread...i posted a screeny of me mousing over a orbit button and it said Quote: Orbit (You cannot do that with a planet)
it was like saying "Eat (you cannot do that with a mouth)" XD
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:19:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Neo Omni When in motion, say using afterburners...you do not slow down after turning the AB off. An object in motion remains in motion unless affected by an outside force. If anything you would need thrusters in the opposite direction to slow down.
You are assuming EVE's engines are thrust based. Which is provably wrong, since those big rocket-looking things on the back of the ships can go in reverse. -
DesuSigs |
Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Neo Omni on 12/03/2009 01:21:41
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Neo Omni When in motion, say using afterburners...you do not slow down after turning the AB off. An object in motion remains in motion unless affected by an outside force. If anything you would need thrusters in the opposite direction to slow down.
You are assuming EVE's engines are thrust based. Which is provably wrong, since those big rocket-looking things on the back of the ships can go in reverse.
True. Another form of propulsion doesnt have to be thrust based. In fact, true warp propulsion would have that odd effect of bringing you to a stop once it's off.
Originally by: Quantar Raalsken im not rly one to hate the fact that its non-realistic but yes i want super-novae and black holes and stuff like that
tho i had a nice lol with my "EVE defies Science" thread...i posted a screeny of me mousing over a orbit button and it said Quote: Orbit (You cannot do that with a planet)
it was like saying "Eat (you cannot do that with a mouth)" XD
ROFLMAO!!!
Great Point!
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UloPe
Caldari Quantum Trade Syndicate Hereticus Aegis Communis
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:23:00 -
[6]
"When in motion, say using afterburners...you do not slow down after turning the AB off. An object in motion remains in motion unless affected by an outside force. If anything you would need thrusters in the opposite direction to slow down."
Yeah that is done wrong in almost any space game. The only games I know of where this was done correctly was the I-War series (Part 1 from 1997 (wow that was 12 years ago...) and Part 2 from 2001)
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Sabrage
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:30:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Neo Omni
4. Time dilation: As a ship travels towards the speed of light, time slows down on that ship. I don't see how this can be of use on EVE though.
Slower skill training during warping!
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Hczer
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:35:00 -
[8]
Gameplay over everything, even realism
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Omaku Toba
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:42:00 -
[9]
Could have space sickness too. Periodically your screen fills with vomit
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Taedrin
Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:48:00 -
[10]
Red shift and blue shift only apply when your velocity changes locally, not globally. The idea behind a warp drive is that you are only traveling faster than light globally, not locally. It achieves this by compressing space in front of it, and expanding space behind it. EVE's version creates a "depleted vacuum bubble". Read up on Vacuum Bubbles on Wikipedia to see why this is a Bad Thing(tm).
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Tomogara
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Posted - 2009.03.12 02:31:00 -
[11]
And then there's asteroid fields. EVE's fields are way too dense, they would collapse under their own gravity.
Our solar system's asteroid belt has about 18,000 km on average between each asteroid and its nearest neighbor.
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Faife
Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.03.12 02:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sabrage
Originally by: Neo Omni
4. Time dilation: As a ship travels towards the speed of light, time slows down on that ship. I don't see how this can be of use on EVE though.
Slower skill training during warping!
i'm completely for this.
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Sir Eldriech
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:01:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sir Eldriech on 12/03/2009 03:01:37 The game would be way too hard to play if it was astronomically accurate.
You have a point with Newton's Law, "An object in motion remains in motion...," and it would be pretty bad ass if there was some sort of vacuum effect (visually) / distortion / blocking / disruption, after attempting to stop from a 6.0 AU/s+ warp in space.
If that were to happen, especially from the bigger ships, player created anomalies / phenomenon or tears in space should be implemented randomly when ships reach certain speeds or if there's some cataclysmic explosion...
There's many little details that just can make the game a lot better.
I mean, flying through planets, come on CCP! At least open up a mini-wormhole graphic before it enters... or something.
---
And since there's no oxygen in space, how is fire produced? Like when your ship is about to blow up? Rocket launchers / cruise missiles?
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Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:15:00 -
[14]
Long story short, the game wouldn't be fun if it had realistic physics.
In fact, I'll go as far as to say that the game would be unplayable with realistic physics.
// As a side note, venting gases from a ship could be causing the flames.
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Sovereign533
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Neo Omni 1. There really is a blue and red shift when traveling at light speed. Eve's latest patch has dumbed down that effect when warping. 2. There are optical distortion, sort of a pinch and punch effect as well. 3. Objects traveling at relativistic speeds will contract in the direction they are traveling. Yes, they become flatter to the stationary observer. Something someone waiting stationary at a gate would see as a ship warps in. 4. Time dilation: As a ship travels towards the speed of light, time slows down on that ship. I don't see how this can be of use on EVE though.
all irrelevant... nobody knows what happenes when you travel faster then light. according to Einsteins calculations it's even improbable it'll ever happen. unless you bend the space-time in such a way that the space around you goes faster then the light around that bubble so you don't really go faster then light. so no slowing of time. you know, yada yada yada... but since no-one experienced ftl, no-one can say what it would look like. or what will happen. it's all just theory, and for all you know, it might look exactly the same as in... i dunno, Babylon5? Star Wars? Space Balls? :S
*Your signature file has been removed for the inclusion of inappropriate language. -- Fallout 3 |
Mind'flayer
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:26:00 -
[16]
On the subject of time dilation, I would not think that it would be noticeable to you until you had a frame of reference outside your inertial frame of reference. As soon as you looked outside of your ship (assuming that you are able to see other objects through the distortion from traveling that fast) you would see that everything outside of your ship is actually moving much faster than you. (or more like you are moving much slower than they are).
I am not positive but I do not think you would be able to recognize any objects outside of your ship to break your inertial frame of reference. If no Aberration and Doppler effects where present in light speed travel everything would be a long bright streak outside the ship to you due to the light reflecting off the objects not reaching you in a timely fashion.
Now the idea of gaining infinite mass and no volume from traveling at light speed and reaching singularity is more of an issue than any of this.
I have always believed that we will never attempt to travel at light speed, but instead poke holes in the fabric of time-space itself. Why travel in a linear fashion in something that is not linear?
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Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc. Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:27:00 -
[17]
..... Warping isn't trust based. Am I seriously the only one who read the old "technology" articles in the backstory page?
Basically when you warp, you create a bubble of distorted space time and then your warp drive drags the bubble from one location to another. Although I miss the blueshift, the distortion bubble in the new warp effect simulates this quite nicely. __
Recruiting
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Sevarus James
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:32:00 -
[18]
Game was designed with a fluid dynamic rather than newtonian one. It was done for playability reasons and this subject gets to the general section once every other month since 2003.
Sigh. EVE is what EVE is. Like it? stay. Hate it? Well there are other mmo's out there.
Updated Ubuntu Compiz-Linux Desktop+EVE Premium |
Iamien
Caldari Stargate SG-1 Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.03.12 03:55:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Iamien on 12/03/2009 03:55:24 I just hate how there is an "UP" in eve. all structures are vertically aligned with up, and up is a threshold for camera rotation and ships, by default ships always fly level, when there shouldnt even be a level.
If only we could fly upside down or even at a 45 degree angle.
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Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.12 05:24:00 -
[20]
I agree that there is a limit as to how realistic the EVe universe can become before it becomes unplayable.
Still, I do think that there should be real world objects in the eve universe.
Comet mining anyone?
And yes, flying through planets and space stations is pretty lame.
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Katt
Minmatar Solar Wind
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Posted - 2009.03.12 05:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Iamien Edited by: Iamien on 12/03/2009 03:55:24 I just hate how there is an "UP" in eve. all structures are vertically aligned with up, and up is a threshold for camera rotation and ships, by default ships always fly level, when there shouldnt even be a level.
If only we could fly upside down or even at a 45 degree angle.
This is the only part that bothers me, realism-wise. Everything else is ignorable.
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Daan Sai
Polytrope
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Posted - 2009.03.12 05:39:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Daan Sai on 12/03/2009 05:39:14 Look, any astrophysicist (yes I am one) will tell you that the EVE universe is not our universe, and operates under completely different physics, so any arguments about realism is completely a waste of time. (All the stargates should be blackholes for a one)
Eve space is filled with a clear fluid that gives a strong drag coeffcient for a start, so really we are all flying submarines around, not space as we know it (now you know why you can hear stuff in 'space' ).
Its a game!
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xStormwingx
Dark Star Cartel Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.12 05:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Neo Omni Comet mining anyone?
Comet mining sounds awesome, especially they make it a really difficult operation. like, you have to travel at a close enough speed and adjust your direction accordingly in order to successfully mine from it. (i dont know anything about astrophysics but it sounds fun)
in other words, comet surfing!!
-------
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Trathen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.12 06:31:00 -
[24]
First of all, the red/blue shift malarky only applies when going close to the speed of light and less then. Even then it hasn't been observed. You can't make any guess as to what FTL looks like because you have to guess what FTL *is* first.
But I agree, let's aim to make Eve as realistic as possible and just delete it. That's some hard science right there. _ |
Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.03.12 07:07:00 -
[25]
The stuff about light-speed doesn't really have any bearing considering we're traveling faster than light and violating laws of physics anyway. Normally warp-drives warp space so that the ship can locally travel at sub-light speeds, but get somewhere faster than light.
The other issues like sub-light ship maneuvering I agree with. There should be maneuvering thrusters visible, like pods have.
The main thing to keep in mind is that this is an MMO, not a space-flight sim. I'm all for realism, but you can't expect sim-level realism in this sort of game.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.03.12 07:11:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Iamien Edited by: Iamien on 12/03/2009 03:55:24 I just hate how there is an "UP" in eve. all structures are vertically aligned with up, and up is a threshold for camera rotation and ships, by default ships always fly level, when there shouldnt even be a level.
If only we could fly upside down or even at a 45 degree angle.
This bugs me too. There is no 'up' in space, but there is in Eve.
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Markilios
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Posted - 2009.03.12 07:22:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Markilios on 12/03/2009 07:22:22 I dont see why anyone would be opposed to having sick physical phenomena introduced into gameplay (if only in the form of visual effects), The nebulae look amazing! But developing a chaos algorithm for how they appear would be amazing, also. (Just an off-the-top-of-my-head idea).
Just a side note, in a brainstorming session, no one offers a dumb idea even though there may be blatant reasons for not considering them...
(Please, DNFTT)
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Ralle030583
Eve Service Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.12 07:33:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ralle030583 on 12/03/2009 07:32:50 simple point,. there is an up, there is a max speed and other physics witch != space cause eve has underwater physics engine
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.12 07:47:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Xailia on 12/03/2009 07:48:12
There is an 'up' for psychological reasons. Though the real reason is apparently a limitation of the game engine, it isn't designed to control things upside-down. But since the game is more tactical than dogfight, Homeworld vs. Descent, it makes sense to design the engine as such.
We also shouldn't make assumptions about the physical properties of the space we fly around in. It isn't necessarily the same as in our region of space. EVE space is highly nebulous, with a high concentration of interstellar gasses, not to mention other unknown spacial properties. There very well could be drag forces at work. Also gameplay is better this way. (Nobody even pointed out the fact that we reach a maximum velocity - edit: until Ralle, curse you -; shame on you thread!)
The local velocity of our ships while traveling at warp is no more than the normal ship velocity. The blue and red shifts that we see are likely light scattering caused by the spacial shearing. Time dilation would likely only occur at the shearing plane, likely similar to the spacial geometry of a superstring.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Ivanna Nukya
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.12 07:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Neo Omni I got this idea after reading/posting in this thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1020232&page=1
There are many real world physics aberrations involved in high speed space travel.
They involve optics, time, mass and energy.
For example:
1. There really is a blue and red shift when traveling at light speed. Eve's latest patch has dumbed down that effect when warping. 2. There are optical distortion, sort of a pinch and punch effect as well. 3. Objects traveling at relativistic speeds will contract in the direction they are traveling. Yes, they become flatter to the stationary observer. Something someone waiting stationary at a gate would see as a ship warps in. 4. Time dilation: As a ship travels towards the speed of light, time slows down on that ship. I don't see how this can be of use on EVE though.
Something else that's been bugging me.
When in motion, say using afterburners...you do not slow down after turning the AB off. An object in motion remains in motion unless affected by an outside force. If anything you would need thrusters in the opposite direction to slow down.
I'm still waiting for black holes (not worm holes), quasars, pulsars, super nova, comets and other odd objects you find in the real universe to show up...and the hazards associated with encountering them.
Anyway, these are just a few thoughts.
Can't wait to see your space game, it should be much better than EVE-online...you are making one right? I mean, you seem to know better than CCP?
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