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kaplowwwwwwwwwwwww
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:13:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Bullageddon My char spent 15mins training up astro and astro tri to lv1 last night.
I have never used probes before.
It took me 15mins to figure out the system and scan down my first wormhole.
Why is this so difficult for people?
I do agree with OP on the reason for needing 4 probes. Ridiculous, you only need one for proper triangulation, just like current sonar/radar. However, that would make it far too easy.
WRONG four probes is proper triangulation IN three dimensions. Idiots only think it's 3. 3 gives you a accurate reading on a two dimensional plane.
1 probe tells you if it's around you. 2 will then tell you if it's between them. You can Technically locate something in this manner in a single axis. 3 allows you to reach single axis triangulation.
you can reach the objects effective location this way. AND IF IT IS NOT TO FAR ON A 3RD AXIS YOU CAN FIND THE OBJECT FAIRLY EASY THIS WAY. It's probably 50%-70% that you can find most object in eve this way.
Now the problem is technically you have little field of depth in this manner. In theory you could be in the correct position just a million miles below it or 1 mile below it you would not know. add a 4th probe below or above and you will then get your correct reading.
Triangulation is a term that applies to multiple point to axis collation. you effectively want to create a pyramid. but you only need to add the 4th probe to the mix once you have a relative location through 3 probe triangulation.
Sonar and radar work EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Sub's tow sonar pod so the can achieve multi point triangulation And radar sights do the same.
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Bullageddon
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:13:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ana Vyr They should have called it tetra-angulation. Best probe pattern for me has been a tetrahedron shape.
People go blank-eye if you say that word.
Just say pyramid and they totally get it. === This Space For Lease or Sale. |
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara
Originally by: Armoured C op obvisouly hasnt scaned a day in his life beofre new scanning effects... the 4 hour wasiting because of luck and those STUPID mid warp bookmarks than needed to be right
op can just STFU until he knows what he is talking about
Lol!! What an angry little boy you are. I guess you have your reasons...
lol you have no idea what scanning was like before so dont come on here going the old system was better
go take you freighter losses with you
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Sawirek
Caldari BLACK BARONS
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:15:00 -
[34]
Hey you don't need a book for playing a game anymore, so it's a great success :).
Yes there is room for improvements (more advanced filter would be nice for instance, and automatic bookmark of the pinpointed site, that would diseapear with site would also be beneficial to both players and servers, etc etc.), but overall the system is reaaaly good.
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Sirion Fujiwara
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara
Originally by: Armoured C op obvisouly hasnt scaned a day in his life beofre new scanning effects... the 4 hour wasiting because of luck and those STUPID mid warp bookmarks than needed to be right
op can just STFU until he knows what he is talking about
Lol!! What an angry little boy you are. I guess you have your reasons...
lol you have no idea what scanning was like before so dont come on here going the old system was better
go take you freighter losses with you
What? Freighter!? Dude - you need anger management therapy! There there.....
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kaplowwwwwwwwwwwww
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:16:00 -
[36]
ok to make this easy on the simple minded.
3 probes let you see stuff on the same or similar level to you. 4 let you see things in any level.
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Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:20:00 -
[37]
I think that the new scanning system is a lot better, and yes ive previously spent 3-4 hours scanning down low strength sigs.
I think the cycle times are a little too fast, but meh, im going to complain about a 4-5 second cycle.
Is this a covert whine from Ninja salvagers, that means they have to work a little harder for thier free salvage?
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Sirion Fujiwara
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Avalon Champion I think that the new scanning system is a lot better, and yes ive previously spent 3-4 hours scanning down low strength sigs.
I think the cycle times are a little too fast, but meh, im going to complain about a 4-5 second cycle.
Is this a covert whine from Ninja salvagers, that means they have to work a little harder for thier free salvage?
No it isn't. Good guess though...
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Bullageddon
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:22:00 -
[39]
Originally by: kaplowwwwwwwwwwwww Sonar and radar work EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Sub's tow sonar pod so the can achieve multi point triangulation And radar sights do the same.
Subs tow sonar pods to negate distortion due to the sub.
Multiple arrays are used for more accurate readings, however you only need one to find distance to the object... and in space, distance from point of origin to point of anomaly is all that matters.
And sonar/radar works on a 3D plane, not 2. The scan wave is sent out in an ever increasing cone/sphere from point of origin, not a 2d circle/triangle. === This Space For Lease or Sale. |
General Melchett
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:25:00 -
[40]
Edited by: General Melchett on 13/03/2009 17:26:29
Originally by: Bullageddon I do agree with OP on the reason for needing 4 probes. Ridiculous, you only need one for proper triangulation, just like current sonar/radar. However, that would make it far too easy.
That would be true if each probe told you the range and direction of an object, but each probe only tells you the range to the object. So if you think about that then the current system is accurate.
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Optical Illusion
Minmatar Templars of Space Delinquent Habits
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:30:00 -
[41]
I always enjoyed scanning out plex's before the patch, i felt it was just as profitale (sometimes more) as ratting in 0.0 in an isk/hour ratio, but alot more interesting.
I really like the new scanning system for the scaning of plex's, however...
I am a PvP'er, and i only PvE to buy ships. i used to be able to scan out a ship in a system we were camping in under a min, as i took the time to make scanning spots between celestials ect so i only ever had to drop a 5 au probe.
This new stystem has destroyed ship probing, and you will now be lucky to probe a ship out thats stationary in under 3 mins. Thats not to mention most 0.0 pilots will have the brains to make new safespots, and bounce between them. the old system, alowed the target to avoid being probed, by using multiple safespots, and making new ones whilst warping between them, but still gave the prober a chance to find the target.
the new system, well. now the target can make a cup of tea, and sandwich upon arrival at the safespot, before coming back and warping to a new one.
this development in the game has had a massive boost to pve probing, but massive nerf to pvp, so will have to join the train thats shouting 'ccp keeps making this game easier for newbs to avoid getting pew pewed' - examples..
* Near imposibility of probing a ship in space that isnt afk.. * regional gates the size of a small country making entry system camping almost impossible with 2/3 people * constalational gate larger - not so much of a problem.. but still.. * Inertia - ships are warping alot faster that they really should, bc's/cruisers warping almost as fast as frigs?!
I dont whine ever, because all of these things on there own arent so much of an issue, but it really is starting to look like ccp cant help but give the carebears of empire and equally easy time in 0.0.
0.0 is a dangerous place, and i feel its been made less and less dangerous every time a patch comes out.
Should we just make all space 1.0 and have done with it?
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FOl2TY8
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:33:00 -
[42]
Edited by: FOl2TY8 on 13/03/2009 17:33:00
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara
What? Freighter!? Dude - you need anger management therapy! There there.....
People are flaming you because your only argument is "scanning is now boring hurf durf!"
---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve |
Moonmonkey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:35:00 -
[43]
I like the new system, it requires player interaction.
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Sirion Fujiwara
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:39:00 -
[44]
Originally by: FOl2TY8 Edited by: FOl2TY8 on 13/03/2009 17:33:00
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara
What? Freighter!? Dude - you need anger management therapy! There there.....
People are flaming you because your only argument is "scanning is now boring hurf durf!"
Uhm - well, I was under the impression that a game was supposed to be fun as opposed to boring, but perhaps I have that all backwards.....?
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Synnyr
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:43:00 -
[45]
I've posted my comments in another thread.
I do feel cheated of days and days of training time and 200 million+ isk.
I believe I could live with the current version of scanning if I could determine before I start what kind of sites are in the system. The loss of the Multispectral probe means I have to take the time to find every single site before determining whether it's worth my time...and usually it isn't. I've been told the 'Deep Space Scanner' is the semi-equivilent. However, in it's infinite wisdom CCP decided that should be an Astrometrics level 5 item. Sweet. Just another 12 days of training after I've already thrown away two weeks on the old system.
I do not enjoy positioning, and re-positioning, and re-positioning, and re-positioning, and changing scan ranges on each probe. To me that isn't 'fun' it's a hassle. Under the old system I could set my probes up and scan. I could chat with Corp mates, I could watch TV, I could Google...it was a nice system that didn't require constant attention and manipulation.
If I didn't find something under the old system after a while I'd just move on...now I spend 15 to 20 minutes in each system just to find out I don't want to be there. One would think after training my Signal Acquisition Skill (level 8) to skill level 4 I would get some benefit. Nope. It's just gone. Replaced by another skill with a lower level.
There was no consideration at all given to those of us who spent a lot of time exploring. We're stuck with 1000s of useless probes, up to 17 blueprints of a probe (costing up to 100 million isk) that no one will buy, and days upon days of training wasted.
I believe there should be a Multispectral probe re-introduced. If indeed the Deepspace Scanner is the equivilent (I don't know because there was never a need to train to Astrometrics 5 before) then consider lowering its use to 4.
Not that anyone cares, but after mucking around with the new system last night I don't have any interest in exploring right now. That was the aspect of the game that I enjoyed and it fit with my time and method of playing. It also provided a good income for those of us who chose that path. Now I feel less inclined to log in. Skill is no longer necessary to scan, and the new system is clunky and annoying.
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Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:48:00 -
[46]
Hey, if the guys that made up this new scanning system are reading this...
I LOVE IT! Seriously
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:54:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 13/03/2009 17:59:38
Quote: (which is blowing stuff up)
Indeed. The entire game is about blowing stuff up. Absolutely nothing else.
Quote: I believe I could live with the current version of scanning if I could determine before I start what kind of sites are in the system. The loss of the Multispectral probe means I have to take the time to find every single site before determining whether it's worth my time...and usually it isn't. I've been told the 'Deep Space Scanner' is the semi-equivilent. However, in it's infinite wisdom CCP decided that should be an Astrometrics level 5 item. Sweet. Just another 12 days of training after I've already thrown away two weeks on the old system.
I do not enjoy positioning, and re-positioning, and re-positioning, and re-positioning, and changing scan ranges on each probe. To me that isn't 'fun' it's a hassle. Under the old system I could set my probes up and scan. I could chat with Corp mates, I could watch TV, I could Google...it was a nice system that didn't require constant attention and manipulation.
If I didn't find something under the old system after a while I'd just move on...now I spend 15 to 20 minutes in each system just to find out I don't want to be there. One would think after training my Signal Acquisition Skill (level 8) to skill level 4 I would get some benefit. Nope. It's just gone. Replaced by another skill with a lower level.
There was no consideration at all given to those of us who spent a lot of time exploring. We're stuck with 1000s of useless probes, up to 17 blueprints of a probe (costing up to 100 million isk) that no one will buy, and days upon days of training wasted.
I believe there should be a Multispectral probe re-introduced. If indeed the Deepspace Scanner is the equivilent (I don't know because there was never a need to train to Astrometrics 5 before) then consider lowering its use to 4.
Not that anyone cares, but after mucking around with the new system last night I don't have any interest in exploring right now. That was the aspect of the game that I enjoyed and it fit with my time and method of playing. It also provided a good income for those of us who chose that path. Now I feel less inclined to log in. Skill is no longer necessary to scan, and the new system is clunky and annoying.
For one, it's 12 days of training. Whoopdeedoo. Or, you could just drop four probes at 32 AU around the system for the same effect.
Lowering the deep space scan probe to IV would make Astrometrics V usel
The training is not wasted. It's just not a difference between "Being utterly useless and pathetic at scanning" and "Being amazing at it". In a recent w-space expedition, I was the only one in a ship with dedicated scanner. Many others had good scan skills, but I was the only one with the ship bonus, the rigs, and the sisters launcher.
They were able to scan pretty well..but there were multiple occasions where they had great difficulty getting a 100% signal hit on a site, whereas I never encountered such issues.
Someone with virtually no skills can probably scan down easier sites in a bit more time, but the skills are certainly worthwhile for the dedicated explorer.
Also, what you're saying is that you enjoy doing exploration plexes but not looking for them. That's what CCP was trying to change-putting more exploration in exploration.
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Y Berion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:10:00 -
[48]
I don`t like this new scanning. It`s too fast and easy to find cosmic signatures now, there is ZERO challenge in it.
@Synnyr: well said, could not agree more.
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:15:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Y Berion I don`t like this new scanning. It`s too fast and easy to find cosmic signatures now, there is ZERO challenge in it.
@Synnyr: well said, could not agree more.
I agree. I think they've made it far to easy, specifically so the attention-deficit crowd could find worm-holes.
I'm not completely against some of the changes, but I lament the loss of its chance-based mechanics which really tended to set a thresh-hold for those who were serious about it as a profession.
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Kale Kold
Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:22:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kale Kold on 13/03/2009 18:24:22
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara Come on... Positioning and re-positiong probes is DULL beyond belief. Considering the complexity in the rest of the game, this is just completely ridiculous as a 'trade' or vocation.
It is very very very dull! why CCP, why? Also the little red circle thing is stupid! What if you are a little colour blind? It took me ages to find the thing and that was because i read an un-official guide to learn what i was supposed to do and then and only then did i see it! Very very poorly thought out!
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:25:00 -
[51]
Quote:
I agree. I think they've made it far to easy, specifically so the attention-deficit crowd could find worm-holes.
I'm not completely against some of the changes, but I lament the loss of its chance-based mechanics which really tended to set a thresh-hold for those who were serious about it as a profession.
Chance-based mechanics are only a barrier when someone doesn't want to sit and watch a timer tick down.
Finding a wormhole in hisec is easy. Hell, finding sites within "Hisec" w-space is easy. Finding sites in "deep" w-space (e.g. the w-space that actually yields good profits and doesn't leave you as gank bait) is considerably harder. Also, exploration plexes were really just as easy to scan down in hisec. Now, they're slightly faster, with the caveat that you don't initially know what you'll find.
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:28:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
I agree. I think they've made it far to easy, specifically so the attention-deficit crowd could find worm-holes.
I'm not completely against some of the changes, but I lament the loss of its chance-based mechanics which really tended to set a thresh-hold for those who were serious about it as a profession.
Chance-based mechanics are only a barrier when someone doesn't want to sit and watch a timer tick down.
Finding a wormhole in hisec is easy. Hell, finding sites within "Hisec" w-space is easy. Finding sites in "deep" w-space (e.g. the w-space that actually yields good profits and doesn't leave you as gank bait) is considerably harder. Also, exploration plexes were really just as easy to scan down in hisec. Now, they're slightly faster, with the caveat that you don't initially know what you'll find.
Not completely true.
The chanced based mechanics wasn't simply about awaiting a timer. It required skill to place probes .. and yes chance did require some patience, but patience enough that those to lazy to do the work didn't get the reward.
This whole risk/reward thing, worked in Astrometrics by determination/reward. The harder sites did take longer to find, but my-oh-my were you rewarded when you did the work.
Now, with no chance, you are all but guaranteed to get the hit - as long as you're not a complete idiot in moving your probes about - you'll find the site.
The bar has been set too low!
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:35:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Eventy One
Originally by: Y Berion I don`t like this new scanning. It`s too fast and easy to find cosmic signatures now, there is ZERO challenge in it.
@Synnyr: well said, could not agree more.
I agree. I think they've made it far to easy, specifically so the attention-deficit crowd could find worm-holes.
I'm not completely against some of the changes, but I lament the loss of its chance-based mechanics which really tended to set a thresh-hold for those who were serious about it as a profession.
To get the arguments categorized and straight:
- Some players hate the old system, because you could read a book while waiting for your probe results - Others argue that the new system panders to the ADD crowd
- Some people argue that the new system is too easy - Others hate the new system because they can't find exactly what types of places are in the system like, by only dropping one probe, like they could with the old system
- Some people hate the new system because it's too fast to find cosmic signatures - Some people hate the old system because it took too long to find cosmic signatures
- Some people hate the new system because it takes too long to find player ships - Some people hate the old system because players could find player ships too quickly
- Some people hate the new system because it doesn't randomly judge whether you're probe found something or not
I'll admit, I'm one of the 'love the new system' crowd. The idea that it's easier and quicker in the past to find a small, mobile ship versus a massive collection of structures or equipment or asteroids in space? Yeah, that made no sense.
The random variable made no sense, either.
I hear lots of complaints from players about having to 'search through every signal', and then someone like Eventy One posts about how much this new system is too quick and easy.
Players who loved the old system, because they could essentially drop ONE prob, hit scan a couple times to get past the random dice roll, read a book in the background, then finally move on because they knew that the system they were in did not have the specific thing they were looking for? Now complaining about having to ACTIVELY search out the signals to determine what they were after?
The contradictions make little sense. If you don't like change, THAT I can understand. But you look like an arrogant snob trying to JUSTIFY and rationalize how you are smarter, or more capable.
Before Wormholes
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Aldarica
Spinal Discipline
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:36:00 -
[54]
With this new dumb-friendly scan mechanics I feel I've just lost my main occupation in EVE. Hey CCP, any chance to bring back the old system?! Well... I guess not...
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:38:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Aldarica With this new dumb-friendly scan mechanics I feel I've just lost my main occupation in EVE. Hey CCP, any chance to bring back the old system?! Well... I guess not...
Serious question: Why?
Why do you feel you've lost your primary occupation? What has changed?
Is it the mechanics? Or is it the number of individuals participating? That seems to be behind many of the arguments, that because of the new mechanics and so many finding it enjoyable, it's not as lucrative or elitist as it once was.
Just wondering.
Before Wormholes
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:39:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara
Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara
Originally by: Armoured C op obvisouly hasnt scaned a day in his life beofre new scanning effects... the 4 hour wasiting because of luck and those STUPID mid warp bookmarks than needed to be right
op can just STFU until he knows what he is talking about
Lol!! What an angry little boy you are. I guess you have your reasons...
lol you have no idea what scanning was like before so dont come on here going the old system was better
go take you freighter losses with you
What? Freighter!? Dude - you need anger management therapy! There there.....
these ones
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Kale Kold
Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:40:00 -
[57]
Well we need a system that's not based on micro-managing probes and that's not too easy to do!
Also WTF happened to my skills??? I have FULL probing skills and it feels as though they make no difference whatsoever!
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Taius Pax
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:41:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Taius Pax on 13/03/2009 18:41:44
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara Scanning was nice and easy before Apocrypha - as it should be. It is hardly the core of the game, more like an add-on feature for the core of the game (which is blowing stuff up). The old system worked perfectly and logically, but now it seems things have been over complicated for no reason at all. Why do I need to sit there and fiddle around with four probes (TRI-angulation???) for half an hour to find one measly ship!? Endlessly adjusting and re-adjusting probe positions and ranges whilst trying to guess where the hell the ship is in the 'red sphere thingy' is tedious beyond anything CCP has yet come up with. Why make it tedious when it could be made fun!??? It's a bit like mining really. Could have been made fun, but actually it is just a boring pain in the arse. Sometimes you have to wonder why CCP even wastes time developing new stuff when they are just making things worse and less enjoyable.
Are you nuts? How is peppering a system with probes, spamming a button, waiting to randomly find a signature, warping to it, dropping a better probe and repeating 2 more times more fun than actively pursuing a signature with probes? (that you can warp and only take a few seconds to scan!)
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:41:00 -
[59]
I agree, that there are some who resist change simply for the sake of resisting change.
I'm not saying that! There are things about the new system I like. BUT I am saying they've somewhat thrown the baby out with the bath water. There were things about the old system I liked too.
Personally, I like the new interface, the ability to move probes around .. THE NO 4AU limit!!!
But I do think - its too easy now. Not necessarily too fast - too easy! Where is the skill?
Before there was a learning curve to learn the trade, that, lets face it ,not everyone was willing to climb. But I suspect CCP wanted to eliminate this for the very reason of making W-space more accessible.
In terms of the philosophy of the game .. not everyone is forced to live in empire, not everyone is forced to mine, to pvp, to live in 0.0.
The reward for leaning astrometrics was finding hidden stuff - plain and simple. Remove some of the skill requirements and not only does it make it too easy, it goes against the philosophy (to a certain extent) of the game.
Like I said before - I believe there is a middle-ground. That's what I hope CCP finds.
Just as everyone
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:42:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Taius Pax
Originally by: Sirion Fujiwara Scanning was nice and easy before Apocrypha - as it should be. It is hardly the core of the game, more like an add-on feature for the core of the game (which is blowing stuff up). The old system worked perfectly and logically, but now it seems things have been over complicated for no reason at all. Why do I need to sit there and fiddle around with four probes (TRI-angulation???) for half an hour to find one measly ship!? Endlessly adjusting and re-adjusting probe positions and ranges whilst trying to guess where the hell the ship is in the 'red sphere thingy' is tedious beyond anything CCP has yet come up with. Why make it tedious when it could be made fun!??? It's a bit like mining really. Could have been made fun, but actually it is just a boring pain in the arse. Sometimes you have to wonder why CCP even wastes time developing new stuff when they are just making things worse and less enjoyable.
Are you nuts? How is peppering a system with probes, spamming a button waiting to randomly find a signature, warping to it, dropping a better probe and repeating 2 more times more fun than actively pursuing a signature with the probes?
op is talking out his wormhole
im just ignoring him now
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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